Welcome to DU!
The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards.
Join the community:
Create a free account
Support DU (and get rid of ads!):
Become a Star Member
Latest Breaking News
General Discussion
The DU Lounge
All Forums
Issue Forums
Culture Forums
Alliance Forums
Region Forums
Support Forums
Help & Search
General Discussion
In reply to the discussion: If I lived in Crimea, I would have voted to leave the Ukraine and join Russia. [View all]Cha
(297,137 posts)110. Of course.. but, you'll only get denials from those who are
pumping up putin for whatever reason.
Svitlana Zalischuk states..
The referendum itself doesnt mean anything, she added, noting that the choice was between yes and yes, and didnt give people a choice of maintaining the status quo. You cant conduct a democratic referendum when a whole country is invaded and controlled by the troops of a foreign country.
The Fight for Democracy in Ukraine: A Conversation with Center UAs Svitlana Zalischuk
BY Micah L. Sifry
In the third and last part of our conversation, I asked Zalischuk about the referendum about to take place in Russian-occupied Crimea and the massive Russian troop presence across the border from eastern Ukraine. Russian invaded Ukraine, she said, mincing no words about Vladimir Putins actions in the wake of Yanukovychs departure from office. The referendum itself doesnt mean anything, she added, noting that the choice was between yes and yes, and didnt give people a choice of maintaining the status quo. You cant conduct a democratic referendum when a whole country is invaded and controlled by the troops of a foreign country.
This is not a conflict between Ukraine and Russia, she said, its a conflict between the civilized world and totalitarianism, one that undermines the whole architecture of the European and world community. I asked her about the idea that the democracy movement in Ukraine was mostly strongest in the western part of the country and not so much from the eastern half, where Yanukovych got the majority of votes. She said the picture was more complicated, because Yanukovych himself had campaigned in favor of stronger ties with Europe when he was running for president.
http://techpresident.com/news/wegov/24827/fight-democracy-ukraine-conversation-center-uas-svitlana-zalischuk
Timothy Snyder: Freedom in Russian exists only in Ukraine
In Ukraine, millions of Russian-speakers read a free press and learn from an uncensored internet
snip//
"Putin claims that he is defending the rights of speakers of Russian in Ukraine. He has used this argument to justify his invasion of Crimea and the electoral theatre of yesterday, a referendum in which there was no way to vote against union with Russia.
Among the speakers of Russian in Crimea are the Crimean Tatars, whose historical memory is dominated by their murderous deportation by Stalin in the Forties, and who boycotted the referendum. It makes no reference to their minority rights, nor to their assembly, the Mejlis, which was permitted by Ukrainian law. Crimean Tatars are now fleeing the peninsula for mainland Ukraine. Russian-speaking Ukrainian Jews have also made it clear to Putin that they do not want Russian intervention."
snip//
"If speakers of Russian were suffering discrimination, that would give rise to concern, though not justify invasion. In fact, Russian is a completely normal language of interchange in Ukraine. There, tens of millions of Russian-speakers read a free press, watch uncontrolled television and learn from an uncensored internet, in either Ukrainian or in Russian, as they prefer.
In Russia, the major social media have been brought under state control, television has been almost completely subdued and several of the remaining free-thinking blogs and internet news sites have been shut down or pressured. This leaves Ukraine as an island of free speech for people who use the Russian language."
MOre..
http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/timothy-snyder-freedom-in-russian-exists-only-in-ukraine-9196833.html
Edit history
Please sign in to view edit histories.
175 replies
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
RecommendedHighlight replies with 5 or more recommendations
If I lived in Crimea, I would have voted to leave the Ukraine and join Russia. [View all]
reformist2
Mar 2014
OP
So does that mean you think that the secession of the Confederacy was justified, then?
Spider Jerusalem
Mar 2014
#1
Apples and oranges. The Colonies did not have representation in the Monarchy of Britain
berni_mccoy
Mar 2014
#9
Right, Crimea was autonomous. They voted for what a majority of the people wanted, and that should
sabrina 1
Mar 2014
#163
Much better question, thank you. Answer, to the British Empire it was a treasonous document.
sabrina 1
Mar 2014
#81
Yes, it IS what you've suggested. And the fact that you can't see it doesn't speak too well of you,
MADem
Mar 2014
#152
Do you seriously believe the vote doesn't reflect popular sentiment in Crimea?
Comrade Grumpy
Mar 2014
#36
There are these opinions.. I posted this last night on someone's thread spouting Putin
Cha
Mar 2014
#107
And in the future if they decide it's a mistake and want Crimean independence...
Bosonic
Mar 2014
#6
Are the rumours that the IMF was going to demand strict austerity measures for the Ukraine true?
djean111
Mar 2014
#10
Not rumors. Yanukovich implemented some IMF Austerity and the Ukrainians revolted
Catherina
Mar 2014
#42
Trying to see how that would work. Donetsk appears to be a city, within an eastern region
2banon
Mar 2014
#84
The entire Donetsk "Oblast," or District/Province, would probably vote to secede.
reformist2
Mar 2014
#87
Thanks, does the arrow illustrate the "Oblast" (assuming that translates to "region/province) eom
2banon
Mar 2014
#93
Great question. You made me remember how many of the neocons & friends profited from Iraq. Big time.
reformist2
Mar 2014
#92
No investigations, that I'm aware of. apart from that dog and pony show of a congressional hearing
2banon
Mar 2014
#94
And you might want to look at the replies that blew the shit out of your link
joeglow3
Mar 2014
#137
So, they may have more money when they are arrested or beaten to death for being gay
joeglow3
Mar 2014
#85
The Maidan protests also had people that want to kill LGBT simply for existing.
Democracyinkind
Mar 2014
#119
I agree that that was probably the primary motivation of all protesters of all political stripes.
Democracyinkind
Mar 2014
#121
I believe that the EU is the junior partner in the American imperial project with some eastern...
Democracyinkind
Mar 2014
#123
My point is, that 'supporting the principle of self-determination' is always somewhat arbitrary.
Warren DeMontague
Mar 2014
#82
Indeed it is. And, trumpeting it as a "democratic principle" can sometimes bite you in the ass.
Tierra_y_Libertad
Mar 2014
#86
Do you know that the 58% majority is the result of mass deportation of the indigenous
Bluenorthwest
Mar 2014
#20
Sounds Familiar? Eminent Domain, What we have done/do everywhere in this country and abroad. eom
2banon
Mar 2014
#134
I would probably have done the same if I weren't part of a minority there.
Democracyinkind
Mar 2014
#28
Something a little fishy about having Russian troops and weaponry around during the vote.
Common Sense Party
Mar 2014
#29
There were no troops and weaponry around during the vote, no more than normal
Catherina
Mar 2014
#43
My mistake. I didn't mean the vote itself, but the campaign, for lack of a better word.
Common Sense Party
Mar 2014
#68
Absolutely, and if something can't be discussed politely, I'd rather not discuss it at all.
Common Sense Party
Mar 2014
#103
This issue isn't about Kerry. And "national interest" isn't an exception to international law.
stevenleser
Mar 2014
#51
And I'm pretty sure that you would have supported seccession as a Southerner in 1861.
Nye Bevan
Mar 2014
#44
I'm pretty sure you would be wrong. The secessionists were trying to run away from a commitment.
reformist2
Mar 2014
#61
If I were Russian, the reason is self-evident. If not, Russia is way more stable than the Ukraine.
reformist2
Mar 2014
#63
So should Ukrainians living on mainland Ukraine also desire to join Russia...
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2014
#64
If other regions vote to leave, that would be fine too. It'll make what's left of Ukraine more stabl
reformist2
Mar 2014
#65
Not if you were a Tatar, although the chances of being Tatar and in Crimea are pretty low
Bluenorthwest
Mar 2014
#54
This is what they want us to believe, for charity, human rights and democracy
Catherina
Mar 2014
#66
The vote was meaningless in that there was no way to vote against leaving the Ukraine
Gothmog
Mar 2014
#76
The turnout tells the story. There's really no debate that the majority wanted out of the Ukraine.
reformist2
Mar 2014
#89
The people could have byocotted the vote if they would have wanted to oppose it.
Democracyinkind
Mar 2014
#118
And yet their votes had to be counted to get to 123% of the population in one major city
Gothmog
Mar 2014
#146
Uhm, on the authority of the dozens of western journalists present, perhaps?
Democracyinkind
Mar 2014
#149
Here is a very good article on why this election was fraudulent and some reliable statistics
Gothmog
Mar 2014
#158
I've read that article 3 days ago, it makes many of the same points that I did.
Democracyinkind
Mar 2014
#160
My basic position is that I am in favor of self-determination in almost all cases.
Democracyinkind
Mar 2014
#162
Legalism is, as far as geo-strategy is concerned, always a secondary issue.
Democracyinkind
Mar 2014
#165
While I agree with your comments about bush, we will have to agree to disagree as to this election
Gothmog
Mar 2014
#166
The UN has rejected the referendum in Crimea and Russia's annexation of Crimea
Gothmog
Mar 2014
#170
The fractious vote indicates the "New World Order" is starting to break apart.
reformist2
Mar 2014
#171