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Response to morningfog (Original post)

Sat Mar 22, 2014, 12:23 AM

46. Sanctions won't undo Crimea; Sanctions won't stop more; NATO will. Ukraine isn't a member, so they

never had the military force protecting them that NATO affords its members.

Suggestions that Russian minorities in other countries such as Estonia will be used as pretext for Russia to move in there will never happen. NATO is there and it's obligated to protect any of its members:

The North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO; /ˈneɪtoʊ/ NAY-toh; French: Organisation du traité de l'Atlantique Nord (OTAN)), also called the (North) Atlantic Alliance,
is an intergovernmental military alliance based on the North Atlantic Treaty which was signed on 4 April 1949. The organization constitutes a system of collective defence whereby its member states agree to mutual defense in response to an attack by any external party. NATO's headquarters are in Brussels, Belgium, one of the 28 member states across North America and Europe, the newest of which, Albania and Croatia, joined in April 2009. An additional 22 countries participate in NATO's Partnership for Peace program, with 15 other countries involved in institutionalized dialogue programmes. The combined military spending of all NATO members constitutes over 70% of the world's defence spending.

NATO was little more than a political association until the Korean War galvanized the organization's member states, and an integrated military structure was built up under the direction of two U.S. supreme commanders. The course of the Cold War led to a rivalry with nations of the Warsaw Pact, which formed in 1955. Doubts over the strength of the relationship between the European states and the United States ebbed and flowed, along with doubts over the credibility of the NATO defence against a prospective Soviet invasion—doubts that led to the development of the independent French nuclear deterrent and the withdrawal of the French from NATO's military structure in 1966 for 30 years. After the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989, the organization was drawn into the breakup of Yugoslavia, and conducted its first military interventions in Bosnia from 1992 to 1995 and later Yugoslavia in 1999. Politically, the organization sought better relations with former Warsaw Pact countries, several of which joined the alliance in 1999 and 2004.

Article 5 of the North Atlantic treaty, requiring member states to come to the aid of any member state subject to an armed attack, was invoked for the first and only time after the 11 September 2001 attacks,[5] after which troops were deployed to Afghanistan under the NATO-led ISAF. The organization has operated a range of additional roles since then, including sending trainers to Iraq, assisting in counter-piracy operations[6] and in 2011 enforcing a no-fly zone over Libya in accordance with U.N. Security Council Resolution 1973. The less potent Article 4, which merely invokes consultation among NATO members, has been invoked four times: by Turkey in 2003 over the Iraq War, twice in 2012 by Turkey over the Syrian Civil War after the downing of an unarmed Turkish F-4 reconnaissance jet and after a mortar was fired at Turkey from Syria[7] and by Poland in 2014 following the Russian intervention in Crimea.[8]


What I emboldened there is why Obama has done what he has in recent years. It is his duty as POTUS to follow up on treaties our nation has signed. It's not like the man wakes up on the wrong side of the bed and does stuff 'just because.'

NATO's role has evolved over the years. They use American forces for certain functions (such as Navy Seals) world wide and other nations provide other functions as part of their membership. It's not just an American organization. And IIRC, Europe supplies 30% of the funding for NATO and they expect it (and us) to show up.

Ukraine (and Crimea) had no protection under NATO and I doubt Russia or Putin will do anything more. As awful as it sounds, perhaps the safest solution for ethnic Russians in those countries where they feel themselves (and not whatever someone else says) that they are being discriminated against or even threatened, should move to Russia, despite the hardship.

I say that because reports in the weeks since the overthrow in Kiev said a half million ethnic Russian Ukrainians crossed the border to Russia. So they saw no other solution. Some ethnic Russians in the Baltic states have claimed they were being mistreated for years and there is fresh anti-Russian sentiment per reports. But all reports from the region are disputed. We don't know.

I expect we are approaching the end of this situation, and Putin will not give up Crimea, and no one can force it no matter what they feel. Crimea has had an election and the residents there seem to accept the situation. I could be all wrong, and hope they won't start killing each other there.


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morningfog Mar 2014 OP
pkdu Mar 2014 #1
hack89 Mar 2014 #2
Takket Mar 2014 #3
backscatter712 Mar 2014 #39
dipsydoodle Mar 2014 #4
riqster Mar 2014 #5
reformist2 Mar 2014 #6
Cha Mar 2014 #8
reformist2 Mar 2014 #9
Cha Mar 2014 #11
reformist2 Mar 2014 #12
Cha Mar 2014 #13
Throd Mar 2014 #29
go west young man Mar 2014 #47
OilemFirchen Mar 2014 #31
Donald Ian Rankin Mar 2014 #7
seveneyes Mar 2014 #10
OilemFirchen Mar 2014 #36
theboss Mar 2014 #14
Bluenorthwest Mar 2014 #15
morningfog Mar 2014 #17
reformist2 Mar 2014 #21
go west young man Mar 2014 #48
AngryAmish Mar 2014 #16
morningfog Mar 2014 #18
jwirr Mar 2014 #19
morningfog Mar 2014 #20
jwirr Mar 2014 #22
Adrahil Mar 2014 #23
Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #24
reformist2 Mar 2014 #32
TwilightGardener Mar 2014 #25
ballyhoo Mar 2014 #26
JPZenger Mar 2014 #27
DetlefK Mar 2014 #33
BlueStreak Mar 2014 #28
Throd Mar 2014 #30
magical thyme Mar 2014 #34
morningfog Mar 2014 #38
bigwillq Mar 2014 #35
Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2014 #37
Catherina Mar 2014 #43
NuclearDem Mar 2014 #40
cthulu2016 Mar 2014 #41
Benton D Struckcheon Mar 2014 #42
dipsydoodle Mar 2014 #44
Rex Mar 2014 #45
LineNew Reply Sanctions won't undo Crimea; Sanctions won't stop more; NATO will. Ukraine isn't a member, so they
freshwest Mar 2014 #46
Egnever Mar 2014 #49
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