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In reply to the discussion: Andrea Dworkin NEVER said "all sex is rape" [View all]Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)5. I understand your feelings
but I do my best to never allow a lie to go unchallenged.
The closest she came to the remark was:
"Intercourse is the pure, sterile, formal expression of men's contempt for women"
This was from her book Intercourse and can be read as "all sex is rape" only by removing it from the context of the work.
She addresses this in a 1995 interview with Michael Moorcock:
Michael Moorcock: After "Right-Wing Women" and "Ice and Fire" you wrote "Intercourse". Another book which helped me clarify confusions about my own sexual relationships. You argue that attitudes to conventional sexual intercourse enshrine and perpetuate sexual inequality. Several reviewers accused you of saying that all intercourse was rape. I haven't found a hint of that anywhere in the book. Is that what you are saying?
Andrea Dworkin: No, I wasn't saying that and I didn't say that, then or ever. There is a long section in Right-Wing Women on intercourse in marriage. My point was that as long as the law allows statutory exemption for a husband from rape charges, no married woman has legal protection from rape. I also argued, based on a reading of our laws, that marriage mandated intercourse--it was compulsory, part of the marriage contract. Under the circumstances, I said, it was impossible to view sexual intercourse in marriage as the free act of a free woman. I said that when we look at sexual liberation and the law, we need to look not only at which sexual acts are forbidden, but which are compelled.
The whole issue of intercourse as this culture's penultimate expression of male dominance became more and more interesting to me. In Intercourse I decided to approach the subject as a social practice, material reality. This may be my history, but I think the social explanation of the "all sex is rape" slander is different and probably simple. Most men and a good number of women experience sexual pleasure in inequality. Since the paradigm for sex has been one of conquest, possession, and violation, I think many men believe they need an unfair advantage, which at its extreme would be called rape. I don't think they need it. I think both intercourse and sexual pleasure can and will survive equality.
It's important to say, too, that the pornographers, especially Playboy, have published the "all sex is rape" slander repeatedly over the years, and it's been taken up by others like Time who, when challenged, cannot cite a source in my work.
Context MATTERS people!!
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no, neither did. then again, anti feminists really do not let facts get in their way.
seabeyond
Mar 2014
#1
so penthouse put something dworkin said out of context to diss her? so surprised.
seabeyond
Mar 2014
#3
Under the context where penthouse was frightened of the influence of feminists and wanted
Squinch
Mar 2014
#63
And yet free internet porn destroyed penthouse's business model far more effectively than Dworkin
Warren DeMontague
Mar 2014
#111
"...because you think you remember reading something in Penthouse equates with absolute truth..."
Atman
Apr 2014
#256
Seriously? This is what you are going to the wall on? Penthouse's journalistic integrity?
Squinch
Mar 2014
#66
I'm honestly not sure what to think. I'm no great admirer of hers, but I don't entirely dismiss her
nomorenomore08
Mar 2014
#135
I agree completely with this post. Her ideas sure as hell didn't come from nowhere.
nomorenomore08
Mar 2014
#140
I think on that, you're right. Many of her most ardent allies felt she had lost touch with reality
Warren DeMontague
Mar 2014
#160
I haven't seen anybody saying she is a voice to be listened to, just defending her from the lies
cui bono
Apr 2014
#178
The only people I've seen bring her up initially are people arguing against feminist issues.
seabeyond
Apr 2014
#180
I've never read her and the fact that she is being villified and used as a tool
cui bono
Apr 2014
#184
She's a topic of this thread because someone else wrongly accused her in his OP
cui bono
Apr 2014
#183
Yes, but this thread is about her, specifically what she did or did not say.
Warren DeMontague
Apr 2014
#186
I think it's only changed a little, unfortunately. I'm 29 and graduated high school in 2003.
nomorenomore08
Apr 2014
#272
I know exactly what you mean. Other men often frighten or intimidate me without even consciously
nomorenomore08
Apr 2014
#294
Good for you. Everyone needs to deal with this in their own way, and your way is at least
nomorenomore08
Apr 2014
#297
yes. i have heard of that. and yes, that was what i was told to particularly read. excellent
seabeyond
Apr 2014
#234
If there are conservatives who agree with me that the 1st Amendment is important
Warren DeMontague
Apr 2014
#265
I've said at least 3 times in this thread, I felt that bringing Dworkin up in the context of those
Warren DeMontague
Apr 2014
#268
as someone who has been on the recieving end of penatrive intercourse and who is male
dsc
Mar 2014
#89
I think that Dworkin was using "violent" differently than what many are imagining.
Maedhros
Mar 2014
#101
Do you get that the problem there wasn't Bain responding to you, but your insistence on something
Squinch
Mar 2014
#72
I get the problem is that Bain constantly twists people's post into bullshit that was never said.
Atman
Mar 2014
#77
Making shit up, there, aren't you? Saying she said something that she never said, aren't you?
Squinch
Mar 2014
#87
Well, then, by all means, keep reading her posts closely and complaining about them!
Squinch
Mar 2014
#93
Given your insult laden salvo, it's too late to decide it's not going to be insult laden.
Squinch
Mar 2014
#113
Given that you showed up out of the blue to join the conversation, it appears you do.
Squinch
Mar 2014
#118
We don't even get a chance to miss them and then *poof* they're back again.
Sheldon Cooper
Mar 2014
#126
so what if she did? does she represent all feminists. is she even that imp in the feminist movement?
La Lioness Priyanka
Mar 2014
#10
some of us .... women, feel it is significant that only a couple decades ago, it was legal to RAPE
seabeyond
Mar 2014
#64
It's not as if these ideas, these "norms," just disappear within a generation or two.
nomorenomore08
Mar 2014
#141
legal rape. and then we wonder why rapists get confised. but hey.... do not be mentioning that
seabeyond
Apr 2014
#215
she does slightly in the beginning, but I'd look to her surviving partner John Stoltenberg
zazen
Mar 2014
#76
It says she disavowed it. Whether or not she uttered that precise combination of words is
Warren DeMontague
Mar 2014
#95
It's relevant if you want to talk about the philosophical gist of her work.
Warren DeMontague
Apr 2014
#164
not true. there is a difference between rape, as you and others want to make it. and violent
seabeyond
Apr 2014
#170
yes. i do not think you can take what she actually said, and say it is the same as saying all sex
seabeyond
Apr 2014
#179
I've given several examples of things she actually DID say, and they're all over the map.
Warren DeMontague
Apr 2014
#181
Here's the thing. First off, I believe the specific quote we're discussing comes from "Our Blood".
Warren DeMontague
Apr 2014
#235
Well, to make a claim of understanding of an author's "general tenets" implies more
Maedhros
Apr 2014
#285
It's not limited sources. That's a fairly extensive excerpt, and its by no means the only bit I'm
Warren DeMontague
Apr 2014
#286
That last one is bizarre. As though an erection weren't a matter of simple biology, which it is.
nomorenomore08
Mar 2014
#145
with so little there, we are all clueless what she was saying. it is worthless to
seabeyond
Mar 2014
#152
She should not be held as the 'gold standard' for if today we have a rape culture in America.
Rex
Mar 2014
#122
weird--I reread the posts (including mine) on Dworkin's memorial tribute wall on Sunday
zazen
Mar 2014
#80
Nobody but the insane and the GOP get their own version of facts and reality
Major Nikon
Apr 2014
#298
So were the Marquis de Sade, Nietzsche, and (arguably) Hunter S. Thompson.
nomorenomore08
Mar 2014
#147
you mean "implied," not inferred, and your grammatically incorrect insult to her memory is pathetic
zazen
Mar 2014
#103
So what did she mean about penetrative sex being "immune to reform?"
Warren DeMontague
Mar 2014
#107
I don't have that book, but you could start with reading works by her ex-partner John Stoltenberg
zazen
Mar 2014
#114
Stoltenberg identifies as Gay, and they repeatedly said no, they didn't have sex.
Warren DeMontague
Mar 2014
#119
If you google "Andrea Dworkin Our Blood", one of the first results is a pdf link.
Warren DeMontague
Apr 2014
#233
Shame on you. You're not a proper democrat unless you assist with rehabilitating her reputation.
lumberjack_jeff
Apr 2014
#173
ha ha. ya. a while back SOME of the men liked getting a most unappealing picture to
seabeyond
Apr 2014
#172
The mere act of sexual intercourse can mean many different things to different people.
nomorenomore08
Apr 2014
#165
I think it's a good question to ask, in general - are any of us truly "free" to make choices?
nomorenomore08
Apr 2014
#168
But anyone who objects to any of this is just a "feminazi" (per MRA-speak).
nomorenomore08
Apr 2014
#190
Their claim is that coitus under the patriarchy is harmful and not fully consensual
Major Nikon
Apr 2014
#201
this quote in the 70's when it was legal for a husband to rape a wife, kinda is their point.
seabeyond
Apr 2014
#203
read lyric above. i am not wasting any more time with discussion. that a husband is legally
seabeyond
Apr 2014
#209
i have been doing you so long, we know each others steps. now, intercourse.....
seabeyond
Apr 2014
#214
So you are convinced I'm wrong about a subject you are ignorant by your own admission
Major Nikon
Apr 2014
#218
i know you are wrong cause you discount the time she was addressing, you have to change her words
seabeyond
Apr 2014
#220
no. i clearly expressed three reasons you were wrong. and lookie, you HAD to change my words... lol
seabeyond
Apr 2014
#223
Funny, I'm not reminded of the condition of slaves in the US when I think of Dworkin.
lumberjack_jeff
Apr 2014
#240
Thanks for posting this. I always saw the way Dworkin's "quote" was twisted
thucythucy
Apr 2014
#232