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Recursion

(56,582 posts)
50. Sorry for the delay: great post
Mon May 19, 2014, 01:54 AM
May 2014

(My laptop has been broken and I couldn't fix it until today.)

This is a really good post and I'm really glad you wrote it.

Some additional thoughts:

The joke making the stand-up rounds now is that the election just goes to show that a Gujarati will do anything for a US visa. Ha ha.

An element of Congress's collapse that should not be overlooked was the division of the state of Andhra Pradesh (you've probably heard of Hyderabad; that's its capital) and the creation of the new Telugu-majority state of Telangana. This completely divided Congress in the south and led to a macing of one MP by another on the floor of the Raj Sabha (their Senate, roughly). It was widely (and, frankly, fairly) seen as a cynical attempt at gerrymandering and even the Telugu nationalists who would normally want it felt left out of the process.

About the 1947 partition, I think it's always important to remember that the lines were literally drawn by a British civil servant who had never been to India. I'm using this comparison only because it's contemporary to it; if you know any Palestinians and how deeply they feel about the Naqba, it's like that, only affecting 10,000 times as many people. My Hindi teacher still remembers having to flee Sindh in the middle of the night as a little girl.

Modi neither started nor ended communal violence. He's not a figure like, for instance, Marathi nationalist Bal Thackery of the Shiv Sena, who openly and frequently encouraged his followers to riot. Modi's sin was failing to do anything to stop them, not encouraging them. Many Sikhs would point out that Sonia Gandhi (the Italian-born president of the Congress party and matriarch of the Nehru-Gandhi dynasty) got a US visa and she has as much if not more to answer for from the 1984 massacre as Modi does from 2003.

Laelth touched on this, but it's important to remember that names in India are a kind of map. When you hear someone's name, that places them in location, community, religion, and caste (caste sort of covers all of those things -- but more on that in a minute). So, if you've heard of the actor Shah Rukh Khan, that name tells you immediately he's a Pathan Muslim whose parents probably moved from Pakistan during the partition (or before). That doesn't mean he believes in Islam, incidentally, just that that is his community. Similarly, the Prime Minister's name, Manmohan Singh, tells you he's Sikh and probably from Punjab. The President's, Pranab Mukherjee, tells you he is a Hindu Brahmin from West Bengal (that's where Calcutta, or as it's now called, Kolkata, is). I bring this up because the name "Narendra Modi" tells you he's a Ghanchi from Gujarat, one of the most economically disadvantaged groups in northern India (though was never nearly as poor as his hagiography makes him out to be). People have talked about the "electric" feeling for minorities in the US at looking on TV and seeing a non-white President; this is similar to that but frankly more intense. It's like having Lincoln's "born in a log cabin" story be inherent in his name.

Now, caste. Caste (it's pronounced just like "cast", incidentally, not "kayst&quot is a very, very uncomfortable subject in India, more so even than race is in the US. Castes were legally abolished in India at independence, but that's like saying racism was legally abolished in the US with the Civil Rights Act: it was a start, not the end. It's not really comparable to anything in the US; it contains elements of class, race, ethnicity, religion, and community. There are, for instance, very rich Dalits ("untouchables&quot and very poor Brahmins (there's a Bengali saying along the lines of "never trust a Brahmin who took up a trade&quot . If you remember the Indian diplomat/maid kerfluffle from earlier this year, the maid was actually of a higher caste than the diplomat. The most historically disadvantaged castes are grouped into "schedules" and given quotas in civil service. This has been good for individuals in the community, but has bred corruption, nepotism, and resentment, and that resentment is barely under the surface in this election. When I said earlier that Modi was from "one of the" most disadvantaged castes, that's important: it was not the most. The Ghanchis were not scheduled (at least as far as I know). They are comparable to poor whites in the South, in that sense: near but not at the bottom, and resentful of people "below" them trying to work their way up. What's important here is that Congress has largely always been a coalition of Muslims, low caste Hindus, and the 1%, against a more communitarian lower-middle class. Up until now, that has been enough, but the emergence of a true bourgeois class presented it a challenge it did not rise to, and BJP did.

Anyways. Should be some interesting times here in the next little bit...

Sonia Ghandi has to go. Dawson Leery May 2014 #1
I hope I am dead wrong about the Reagan/Modi comparison. Laelth May 2014 #2
I hope you are wrong about that comparison too. Dawson Leery May 2014 #3
War with Pakistan...on the horizon ,,, nt kelliekat44 May 2014 #22
I doubt that. Laelth May 2014 #24
Thanks for this Laelth! villager May 2014 #4
My pleasure. n/t Laelth May 2014 #5
wow. that was a lot to read, but i learned a lot too. Sheri May 2014 #6
My pleasure. I am glad you found the post informative. n/t Laelth May 2014 #27
This should be in The New York Times. Octafish May 2014 #7
You are very kind. Laelth May 2014 #8
Marvelous, edifying post! Thank you so much! scarletwoman May 2014 #9
Aw, thanks. Glad you appreciated the post. Laelth May 2014 #29
Good stuff. Thanks for posting. n/t Benton D Struckcheon May 2014 #10
Thanks for the response and for the kind words. n/t Laelth May 2014 #37
The incredible diversity in India is always interesting to read about. pampango May 2014 #11
but most of his support is not for religious reasons but economic JI7 May 2014 #13
+1 nt Vehl May 2014 #20
I hope you are right. My reading of his time as governor is one of increased strife between pampango May 2014 #33
i would like to see exit poll results and see how certain groups voted , how much muslim JI7 May 2014 #40
very informative post JI7 May 2014 #12
Stunning early numbers: BJP 220, Congress 66 Recursion May 2014 #14
And it's official: NDA has 272 Recursion May 2014 #15
Gandhi will concede at noon; BJP alone hits 250 Recursion May 2014 #16
The governor of Assam just resigned during an interview Recursion May 2014 #17
Thank you! I will... JackRiddler May 2014 #18
Thanks. Glad you liked it. n/t Laelth May 2014 #41
Great write-up, but not sure if we can call the BJP center right...they are pretty left Vehl May 2014 #19
Excellent post. Thanks. Laelth May 2014 #21
The Liberalism Congress stands for is anything but that. Vehl May 2014 #43
Muslims Vote Is Increasing Joel thakkar May 2014 #51
Good points Vehl May 2014 #58
Blame Sonia Gandhi. She bent over backwards to appease Dawson Leery May 2014 #55
Yep, India really needs a single secular civil code Vehl May 2014 #59
But Netaji was hardly free from controversy either Recursion May 2014 #39
He had no other choice, imo; and the Brit Rule of India saw Millions of deaths due to famine Vehl May 2014 #44
Still, I always wonder, if Vivekenanda had lived... Recursion May 2014 #49
This is a really interesting question indeed. Vehl May 2014 #60
It's one of those great "what-ifs". Ironic his first name was "Narendra"... Recursion May 2014 #63
Excellent post, thank you! Very interesting to read. sabrina 1 May 2014 #46
You are welcome! Vehl May 2014 #61
Update: 7:00 AM EDST Laelth May 2014 #23
A wonderful writeup seveneyes May 2014 #25
Update: 8:15 AM EDST Laelth May 2014 #26
Narendra Modi takes a "selfie" with the BJP lotus. Laelth May 2014 #28
The BJP (alone) has crossed 272. Update: 9:50 AM EDST. Laelth May 2014 #30
It appears to be quite a landslide for BJP IronLionZion May 2014 #31
Hindustan Times suggests Obama is playing nice at the moment. Laelth May 2014 #34
Thx for taking the time to put all that together. nt okaawhatever May 2014 #32
My pleasure. n/t Laelth May 2014 #36
Final Tally - Indian Lok Sabha Election of 2014 Laelth May 2014 #35
Thank you for an excellent thread. I hope they do not squander this victory sabrina 1 May 2014 #47
My pleasure. I am glad you found the post informative. n/t Laelth May 2014 #54
thanks for the information! n/t RainDog May 2014 #38
My pleasure. n/t Laelth May 2014 #42
My prediction here: LittleBlue May 2014 #45
n/t Joel thakkar May 2014 #52
I appreciate this very much. woo me with science May 2014 #48
Sorry for the delay: great post Recursion May 2014 #50
Large Amt of info..i have closely studied this election Joel thakkar May 2014 #53
All good info - thank you. Kber May 2014 #56
I have already made another thread Joel thakkar May 2014 #57
Modi to propose and Indian Version of Americorps? seems like they are looking for volunteers Vehl May 2014 #62
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