Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
 

JackRiddler

(24,979 posts)
19. Laughable disinformation.
Wed Jun 4, 2014, 11:01 AM
Jun 2014

The most pathetic of your moves is in believing there is any way to obscure the direct sponsorship of the banker Yatsenyuk by NATO, State Department, NED and the Western oligarch class of Peterson, Gates, etc., through Pinchuk, Horizon Capital and others. In this case it's of course particularly hard for you to distract from this with weak attempts at ridicule because of one of the main sources telling of this close and warm relationship is, of course, Yatsenyuk himself.

Partners of the Ukrainian coup d'etat prime minister... http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024946300

This connection is so self-evident that you could at least be honest and admit it. Yatsenyuk is the West's man, chosen by the State Department, encouraged to make a coalition with neo-Nazis as needed, and concerned solely with implementation of a neoliberal program as dictated by IMF and EU. Instead you engage in the false characterization that I point to this obvious connection only out of some anti-Western bias. It is your attitude that if there is regime change anywhere in the world, the West is never behind it and anyone who says so is a self-hating Westerner (or whatever). Sad that you choose these blinders.

On the other hand, you have no trouble with conspiracy theories no matter how lacking for evidence, as long as they involve dastardly Russians. No trouble seeing Russian imperialism in everything they do: in this case, every bad claim about them, whether it is true or not, is accepted. However, I have no need for a good guy-bad guy narrative. Ukraine has traded a predatory oligarch kleptocracy that favored Russian interests for a predatory oligarch kleptocracy in the pockets of Western interests. Nothing unusual in that; unfortunately regime changes of bad guy for bad guy are close to the norm. The difference in the new regime is that it wasn't elected, didn't disguise its function as an implementing arm of the IMF and EU, and was willing (and stupid enough) to ally with fascists and stir up ethnic troubles as a means of dividing the people. This backfired in Crimea and moved eastern Ukraine toward a new Yugoslavia-type war among competing ethnic nationalists (one hopes it can still be avoided).

The "stalled bill" abolishing Russian as a language of the Ukrainian state was enacted on the very first day of the coup government under Yatsenyuk. It was the law of the land, and only later reversed by the interim president. Before the reversal, the message had been sent: the new government had welcomed ethnic Ukrainian fascists who blamed all problems on Russian plots and Jews, and had catered to them immediately by abolishing Russian as a language of the state. Furthermore, the first choice of defense and security minister was one of the fascist party leaders. This is the most important ministry in most times, and even more so given the civil conflict -- an even more clear signal to ethnic Russians that the new government was willing to put the fascist attack dog in charge.

This was incredibly stupid, but what does one expect from a plunder team allied with fascists? Predictably, the overwhelmingly Russian area of Crimea, which was already home to Russian forces and bases, wasted no time in going its own way. This hardly required the "infiltration" of paramilitary forces from Russia itself. Seeing what had developed in Kiev, the majority of Ukrainian army forces who were already in Crimea went over to the Russian side. The subsequent election was stage-managed and under authoritarian-hysterical conditions, and I don't support annexations on principle (because of the obvious "Yugoslavia" effect this will encourage) but there's no doubt the result was a valid expression of the will of the overwhelming Crimean majority. The Kiev government should have and could have sought a deescalation at that point, before major hostilities began, and held parliamentary elections in peace throughout the country. As the eastern separatists began their protests, the Kiev government chose the way of crackdown and massacre, risking a civil war.

You still have time to save a little bit of face, not to go down as DU's most extreme apologist for Ukrainian fascism. Simple question: do you support the inclusion of Svoboda as a partner in the Kiev government? Would you have chosen a different route than to include fascists, even if this meant elections instead of a successful coalition? That is an essential litmus test at a time when fascism is on the rise throughout Europe. They don't get majorities, they don't come to power without assistance from liberal bourgeois parties who are ready to make a deal.

BINGO!!!!! Especially your last two paragraphs...... socialist_n_TN Jun 2014 #1
Thanks. JackRiddler Jun 2014 #2
How can someone be "anti-coup" if they are unable to prove a coup actually happened? nt Tommy_Carcetti Jun 2014 #4
I think it's unfair to focus on such a small minority. joshcryer Jun 2014 #15
I see you're back to calling it a "coup" even after admitting you have no proof one occurred. Tommy_Carcetti Jun 2014 #3
Is Svoboda in the Kiev government? JackRiddler Jun 2014 #5
And that supports your position of a "coup government" how? Tommy_Carcetti Jun 2014 #7
I see you're still making excuses for a fascist party. JackRiddler Jun 2014 #6
You clearly have very little understanding how parliamentary procedure works. nt Tommy_Carcetti Jun 2014 #8
Is Svoboda in the Kiev government or not? JackRiddler Jun 2014 #9
Svoboda is a small part of the majority coalition in the Rada. Tommy_Carcetti Jun 2014 #12
Importantly, the abstentions let them get voted in. joshcryer Jun 2014 #16
Pedantry. JackRiddler Jun 2014 #17
No. The situation in Crimea was not caused by a stalled bill on the Russian language. Tommy_Carcetti Jun 2014 #18
Laughable disinformation. JackRiddler Jun 2014 #19
Your posts are treasure troves for logical fallacies. Tommy_Carcetti Jun 2014 #21
Poroshenko has not been inagurated. joshcryer Jun 2014 #10
So you think fascists in the cabinet is nothing. JackRiddler Jun 2014 #11
They were a result of the Communist Party abstaining. joshcryer Jun 2014 #13
Fantastic - it's the Commies at fault! JackRiddler Jun 2014 #20
Excellent post malaise Jun 2014 #14
Another day, another dose of exterminationist rhetoric... JackRiddler Jun 2014 #22
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»That meme apologizing for...»Reply #19