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Fortinbras Armstrong

(4,473 posts)
124. Basically, they have to find a "flaw" in the marriage
Mon Mar 2, 2015, 09:05 AM
Mar 2015

Some of which are rather abstruse (see "Pauline Privilege" and "Petrine Privilege&quot , but the whole thing is basically dishonest. The person seeking the annulment is basically trying to pretend that the marriage never really happened.

Let me tell you of a couple of contemporaneous historical annulments requests, those of Henry VIII of England and his sister Margaret in the 16th century.

Henry and Margaret's father, Henry VII, arranged a political marriage between his eldest son, Arthur, and Catherine of Aragon. A few months after the wedding, Arthur died. The king wanted both to maintain the political alliance with Spain and to keep the dowry that Catherine brought (over a million in today's currency, which would have had to be repaid out of the Privy Purse). So he decided to marry his second son, Henry, to Catherine.

There was a problem: Under Church marriage law, one cannot marry one's deceased spouse's sibling. However, this could be got round with a dispensation. So King Henry went to the Archbishop of Canterbury, Warham, to get the dispensation. Warham was then in a political fight with the King and refused to grant it; but Henry twisted his arm, and Warham gave in. Henry then applied to the Vatican for their approval -- Pope Julius II rubber stamped the dispensation and the fullness of time Henry and Catherine were married.

Twenty-some years later, it was obvious that Catherine, now in menopause, was not going to give Henry the son he so desperately craved. (Henry wanted a son because the last time an English king, Henry I, died with only a daughter to follow him, Matilda, there was a civil war.) The incest that Henry was committing was preying on his mind -- that he had fallen in love with the young and beautiful Anne Boleyn was, of course, quite irrelevant.

Recall that Henry VII had pressured Archbishop Warham to get the dispensation for his son's betrothal to Catherine. Church marriage law says that if any party to the marriage is acting under duress, the marriage is void. So Henry VIII requested an annulment on the grounds that the dispensation was improperly given.

However, Catherine did not want her marriage annulled. She claimed that she loved Henry; a dubious claim at best, since Henry did not treat her well. It is far more likely that Catherine did not want her daughter Mary to lose her place as Henry's only legitimate child. After all, should Henry remarry and have a son, this son would take precedence over Mary as Henry's heir. (One of the great "what if"s of English history is "what if Mary had been a boy?&quot

So, Catherine counter-attacked on two fronts: One based in Church marriage law, and the other purely political. In Church marriage law, in order for a marriage to be valid, two things must happen. The first is an exchange of vows before witnesses, and there was no question that this happened when Catherine married Arthur. The second is that the marriage must be consummated. Catherine claimed that she and Arthur had never consummated their marriage. Thus, the dispensation was irrelevant, and her marriage to Henry was, in fact, her first marriage.

This claim should have gone nowhere. First, Church marriage law makes the presumption that a married couple will have intercourse unless it can be proven otherwise. Second, under Church marriage law, the burden of proof would have been on Catherine, and the operative word is "proof". I'm sure that 16th century divorce lawyers and judges knew just as well as their 21st century counterparts that all parties in a divorce probably lie. Catherine's unsupported word should not have sufficed, and at the time she made this claim, she was not a virgo intacta. Thus, she had no support for her claim.

Something else in Church marriage law is that dubious claims about the validity of the marriage are to be dismissed in favor of the validity of the marriage.

However, her other point of attack depended on her nephew Charles -- King of Spain, Holy Roman Emperor and King of Naples -- to oppose the annulment. Charles was happy to support his aunt, since he disliked Henry both personally and politically. Charles and Henry had entered an alliance against France which Henry broke at the Field of the Cloth of Gold, and Charles felt that Henry had betrayed him. What concerned the Pope was that in 1527, Naples and the Papal States had a war, which Clement lost. Some of Charles' troops sacked Rome. Clement did not want a rerun of that war, so he took Catherine's claim of non-consummation seriously. There were Papal Delegates, special commissions of enquiry and so on. Basically, Clement was stalling.

Finally, when Henry discovered that Anne Boleyn was pregnant, he forced Clement's hand. He pushed through some laws in Parliament, one saying that marriage questions could be settled locally, another saying that all English clergy owed their first allegiance to the crown and a third saying that the Peter's Pence collection (an annual collection in each parish going directly to the Vatican) and the Annates (essentially a tax on Church properties that also went to the Vatican) should go to the Exchequer instead of to Rome. Clement was Not Amused, and decreed against Henry's annulment.

Thus, the actual reason for Clement's action was politics and money.

Now, on to Margaret. Henry VII married her off to King James IV of Scotland. For some reason, James invaded England in 1513, and was met by English troops at the Battle of Flodden. Flodden was an overwhelming victory for the English, and James was killed in the battle. His body was seen by quite a few people, both English and Scots, who knew him at least by sight; he was buried on the battlefield.

James' son became king as James V, but since he was only two, a council of regency was set up. Margaret was one of the regents, and another was Archibald Douglas, the Earl of Angus. In order to solidify his political position, Angus persuaded Margaret to marry him.

This was not a happy marriage. To give just one example, in 1520, Angus attempted to enter Edinburgh at the head of some troops, and was taken under fire by artillery and infantry under the personal command of his wife.

In 1527, Margaret seized on an unfounded rumor that James IV had not died at Flodden, but had regained consciousness, dug himself out of his grave, and recovered from his wounds. However, James had not returned to Scotland, but rather made a secret pilgrimage to the Holy Land. Nevertheless, James was supposed to return to Scotland at any moment. This rumor, of course, is just as credible as the one that Elvis Presley is still alive.

Margaret sent in a petition to Pope Clement for an annulment of her marriage on the grounds that her first husband was actually still alive. Cardinal Beaton, the Archbishop of St Andrews, who loathed Angus as much as Margaret did, supported the petition. Angus, who also wanted out of the marriage, raised no objection -- indeed, he suggested that a better ground for the annulment might be that he had been betrothed as a young man.

In any case, Margaret got her annulment, realized that her first husband was dead, and promptly married someone else.

So, Henry VIII was denied an annulment even though he had solid grounds, and Margaret was granted one on flimsy grounds. It was all political in both cases.

The one mistake I made was getting a Catholic lawyer (he was the brother of an in-law). Said I monmouth4 Mar 2015 #1
Good for you! Kath1 Mar 2015 #3
Yes. Sometimes you just know for sure that you're doing the right thing. BlueJazz Mar 2015 #2
I'd love it, too! Kath1 Mar 2015 #6
Kids don't obey parents, they IMITATE them. Lionel Mandrake Mar 2015 #120
I would recommend nicorette gum. It enabled me to quit smoking after 18 years. (eom) StevieM Mar 2015 #121
Thanks for sharing! I'm not a religious person, but to me belief in the RKP5637 Mar 2015 #4
Thank you. Kath1 Mar 2015 #9
According to a Catholic priest I heard on TV, divorce is not a sin, but merrily Mar 2015 #5
You are correct. Drahthaardogs Mar 2015 #11
Not technically a sin. Kath1 Mar 2015 #13
Again, best wishes to you and yours. merrily Mar 2015 #14
Very cool. Kath1 Mar 2015 #17
Thank you. More peace and love are good! merrily Mar 2015 #19
Yes! Kath1 Mar 2015 #21
Actually the Catholic rule on Divorce was aimed at MEN not WOMEN. happyslug Mar 2015 #117
Some more on the subject of Jesus and divorce Fortinbras Armstrong Mar 2015 #125
Unless there is an annulment... Beartracks Mar 2015 #86
By and large, I think annulments... 3catwoman3 Mar 2015 #98
Bear in mind, the Church looks at it from a non-secular viewpoint. Beartracks Mar 2015 #102
Basically, they have to find a "flaw" in the marriage Fortinbras Armstrong Mar 2015 #124
An interesting read. Thanks! n/t Beartracks Mar 2015 #127
Sorry, here's a better description of annulment. Beartracks Mar 2015 #101
That is not what an annulment is. Drahthaardogs Mar 2015 #113
You are correct. Here's why I had it wrong... Beartracks Mar 2015 #126
Religion is the greatest hoax on earth Kalidurga Mar 2015 #7
I agree. Kath1 Mar 2015 #10
Delusion or "willful suspension of disbelief"? Later is an important part of appreciating fictions HereSince1628 Mar 2015 #12
I agree with that for the most part Kalidurga Mar 2015 #22
Critical thinking suggests tellers tell stories that serve both the audience -and- themselves. HereSince1628 Mar 2015 #24
Of course most actors and playwrights never make a living but continue to work. Bluenorthwest Mar 2015 #36
Most "believers" go on telling stories and never make a living at it either... HereSince1628 Mar 2015 #43
Yep! Agree with you so much! n/t RKP5637 Mar 2015 #16
May be a hoax but it sure is a money maker rurallib Mar 2015 #23
The Church of DU had me at Sunday LOLcats pinboy3niner Mar 2015 #8
I was baptized before I was out of grade school madokie Mar 2015 #15
K&R!!!!! n/t RKP5637 Mar 2015 #18
I like you as an atheist, too! Kath1 Mar 2015 #20
I was married... Dont call me Shirley Mar 2015 #47
Maybe they were following the teachings of Christ. Mariana Mar 2015 #80
Yup, that. Dont call me Shirley Mar 2015 #107
Does your daughter have visitation with her father? treestar Mar 2015 #25
Abusive relationship - might not be healthy for the daughter to see him? I trust the mothers peacebird Mar 2015 #28
Why? You are hearing one side of the story. treestar Mar 2015 #31
I never called my ex hubby abusive. Good grief. And nowhere does she say anything about visitation peacebird Mar 2015 #32
Sole custody sounded like it was due to being "abusive" and his cheating treestar Mar 2015 #33
Yes, she does. Kath1 Mar 2015 #30
Oh, for crying out loud... Hissyspit Mar 2015 #35
Are you serious? Give it a rest for crying out loud. paleotn Mar 2015 #40
Had a divorce? treestar Mar 2015 #53
I am skipping church today because we are having a snow and ice storm today. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #26
Snow and ice - the weather forecast several days ago- No Vested Interest Mar 2015 #66
I am very sorry you have been led down this road... jtuck004 Mar 2015 #27
This message was self-deleted by its author In_The_Wind Mar 2015 #29
horrible thing to do to a child jomin41 Mar 2015 #34
I just called my "devoutly Catholic" mother (almost 80) to see if she is logosoco Mar 2015 #37
We could have a good conversation. Enthusiast Mar 2015 #94
I'm still trying to come to terms with my time in Christian school at a Jamastiene Mar 2015 #38
You understand perfectly! Kath1 Mar 2015 #49
"abnormal and left" BeanMusical Mar 2015 #67
"Outside the box." Enthusiast Mar 2015 #95
+1 BeanMusical Mar 2015 #104
I can relate, though from the other side of the Christian spectrum.... paleotn Mar 2015 #39
That is damn funny about generating electricity. olegramps Mar 2015 #52
If you only knew my Mom. I love her more than life.... paleotn Mar 2015 #57
Oh, baby! Great post! Enthusiast Mar 2015 #96
I was raised RC too - LiberalElite Mar 2015 #41
Thank you. Kath1 Mar 2015 #44
For the past 3 years, I have been... 3catwoman3 Mar 2015 #42
Cool. Kath1 Mar 2015 #45
We are all in the libodem Mar 2015 #46
Right On!!! Kath1 Mar 2015 #51
I go outside, I see a cluster of towering, magnificent trees. Arugula Latte Mar 2015 #61
An attitude libodem Mar 2015 #62
Are the trees... 3catwoman3 Mar 2015 #65
They are! Arugula Latte Mar 2015 #88
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Appreciate your story and Skidmore Mar 2015 #50
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Well said. 3catwoman3 Mar 2015 #76
Thank you so much for a great truegrit44 Mar 2015 #55
We are on the same page! Kath1 Mar 2015 #71
I'm sorry you had that experience. Trillo Mar 2015 #56
Sleeping in on Sunday is still a delicious pleasure. roody Mar 2015 #58
We call it the Church of St. Mattress. LuckyLib Mar 2015 #118
Thank you and Happy Sunday to you PumpkinAle Mar 2015 #59
I'm glad you escaped both the shackles of your marriage and the shackles of religion. Arugula Latte Mar 2015 #60
MUCH better space now! Kath1 Mar 2015 #73
One piece of wisdom in the bible. yallerdawg Mar 2015 #63
Brain Damage... Zorra Mar 2015 #64
I love that song! BeanMusical Mar 2015 #70
Just saw an episode of "House of Cards" azmom Mar 2015 #83
LOL! Kath1 Mar 2015 #109
My husband went to Catholic schools... 3catwoman3 Mar 2015 #103
Thank you! BeanMusical Mar 2015 #68
I gave up on Catholicism when I was 12 and a priest gave the "God Works in Mysterious Ways" Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2015 #69
Catholic on paper. I was never forced to go to church by my parents. BeanMusical Mar 2015 #72
Fortunately, my parents were "Easter Catholics". Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2015 #74
+1 BeanMusical Mar 2015 #75
We were Easter Catholic. azmom Mar 2015 #84
Very cool story. Kath1 Mar 2015 #108
I've always hated that trite line too Populist_Prole Mar 2015 #89
I did go to church today... chillfactor Mar 2015 #77
I don't believe in organized religeon...they are so busy asking for onecent Mar 2015 #78
Lots of us "recovering Catholics" here! calimary Mar 2015 #79
No more for me on Sunday's either jopacaco Mar 2015 #81
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As for your daughter... snacker Mar 2015 #85
Thank you! Kath1 Mar 2015 #112
My mother was a little batty when it came to church attendance Populist_Prole Mar 2015 #87
so sorry to hear of your bad experiences! steve2470 Mar 2015 #90
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2015 #91
I believe that God is love and wouldn't roguevalley Mar 2015 #92
Thank you for sharing that with us, Kath1. Enthusiast Mar 2015 #93
God is a personal choice heaven05 Mar 2015 #97
The concept of a loving god never made any sense. Arugula Latte Mar 2015 #99
Hi Kath1 - I'm so sorry that you had such an awful experience. Pendrench Mar 2015 #100
Thanks, Tim. Kath1 Mar 2015 #110
Will do :) Pendrench Mar 2015 #114
Thanks. Kath1 Mar 2015 #115
Sunday is for sleeping in. DamnYankeeInHouston Mar 2015 #105
Kath~ sheshe2 Mar 2015 #106
Thanks so much, she! Kath1 Mar 2015 #111
I went to a volleyball tournament today. Better to put girls in sports and make them mackerel Mar 2015 #116
Happy Sunday to you, Kath "I consider myself a spiritual person but it is between me and the great Cha Mar 2015 #119
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Good on you! riqster Mar 2015 #123
Thanks to everyone for the wonderful replies! Kath1 Mar 2015 #128
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