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DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
10. Institutional or systemic animus works systemically. Personal animus still matters.
Sun Sep 13, 2015, 12:40 PM
Sep 2015

So, yes, it's true people try to argue a false equivalency between systemic or cultural oppression based on identity and personal animus.

People who would like to dismiss widespread discrimination will imply that because anyone can be racist or sexist or religiously bigoted, that it all kind of "balances out" somehow, which of course it doesn't. It *matters more* when an empowered group hates or discriminates, but it doesn't make it the only thing that matters.

We have words for institutional or systemic or culture-wide inequalities already. "Racism" and "sexism" already have definitions, and they refer to personal, not societal thinking. One leads to the other, but that doesn't make them the same thing.

Trying to redefine personal animus based on race or gender or religion, which is always harmful and always a bad idea, so that only some people can ever be guilty of it is a weird, unsupportable dodge with some pretty terrible implications.

Under this rubric, we're supposed to excuse personal animus, which is just as foolish, just as narrow-minded, just as hateful, on the basis that someone engaging it can't really hurt anything, which simply isn't true. It invites an irrational scrutiny of everyone's cultural identity that relies on the same racist or sexist or bigoted thinking that causes the problems we're all talking about. It also doesn't allow for any fluidity in cultural norms.

How does that all work when we get past America's problem of the simplistic identities of "black" vs. "white?"

Are we okay with a Pacific Islander who won't rent his apartment units to Malaysians because he thinks they are lazy, based on weighing whose identity has the most theoretical power in society? Is no harm being done if an Atheist, whose group has virtually no societal advantage, assumes that Protestants are too stupid to be promoted at work?

How do we know, by the way, when judging these things, what people's identities really are? Race is a cultural construct to begin with. Even gender identity is being increasingly recognized as something that varies in ways we can't instantaneously recognize. Mike Huckabee spent last week talking up the Dredd Scott decision, which held

Any person descended from Africans, whether slave or free, is not a citizen of the United States.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dred_Scott

This was in keeping with America's "one drop" (of blood) theory of racism, wherein any kind of African ancestry rendered someone a lesser person. Now we laugh when racists go on television and discover they are of African descent as well.

But we don't stop calling them racists.

Recall we are talking about what people look like, or really, what other people think they look like. The implications for how we treat each other are real, but how do you go about convicting or absolving people of racist thinking based on that? If a person from Asia is mistaken for someone from South America, what level of racism is okay for them to apply? And how do you mix in religion, physical ability, or whatever else we are mistreating each other over? Can someone "trump" someone else's entitlement to bigoted thinking by revealing an additional oppressed identity?

And what happens when things DO get better, as we hope they do, a little at a time? Will we give and take absolution for bigoted thinking based on how a particular identity is doing in the global or American pecking order?

Words have meaning for a reason. Hating, mistreating, assuming superiority over, or claiming a right to treat people differently based on appearance, background, or physical characteristics, -- yours or theirs -- IS racist or sexist or bigoted, whether society is carrying out your foolish thinking or not.






It's nice for you to redefine racism cpwm17 Sep 2015 #1
and it's not nice of you to leave off half of the definition Gormy Cuss Sep 2015 #11
The OP was denying the definitions that I posted. cpwm17 Sep 2015 #14
And you didn't address it. You simply edited the dictionary entry to one usage Gormy Cuss Sep 2015 #18
That's the same excuse I use when I omit relevant context to validate my own biases too! LanternWaste Sep 2015 #249
The word is properly used with either meaning. Igel Sep 2015 #153
Yes, I'm well aware of how a dictionary works. Gormy Cuss Sep 2015 #195
Isn't it aways fun to read a post where someone tries to explain hughee99 Sep 2015 #13
Sorry, but this is just one of those new 'truisms' that people in echo chambers tell each other. Marr Sep 2015 #2
wrong NoJusticeNoPeace Sep 2015 #28
Compelling argument. Marr Sep 2015 #39
So, if I am Asian, and I believe dumbcat Sep 2015 #62
Correct, it is not racism. It is bigotry. Racism is having the power of the collective and govt NoJusticeNoPeace Sep 2015 #98
Dictionaries are wrong? dumbcat Sep 2015 #107
It sure is important to some that a black person can be called a racist... NoJusticeNoPeace Sep 2015 #108
It sure is important to some dumbcat Sep 2015 #111
An Asian who is part of the ruling class and power can be called a racist, ANYONE who is part NoJusticeNoPeace Sep 2015 #113
It's not obvious to me dumbcat Sep 2015 #117
nope NoJusticeNoPeace Sep 2015 #119
Yet, I often see OPs titled like "It's time to have a dumbcat Sep 2015 #122
Would you say Japanese treatment of Ainu was racist? Generic Other Sep 2015 #148
Again, I have to disagree with the basic premise dumbcat Sep 2015 #156
Institutional racism is a pattern of action not just a belief Generic Other Sep 2015 #173
I'll agree with the title of that post dumbcat Sep 2015 #175
I see what you are trying to say. I have actually seen jwirr Sep 2015 #177
An excellent point Generic Other Sep 2015 #224
Those who do not have power Shankapotomus Sep 2015 #199
So the following isn't racism? Igel Sep 2015 #157
Wish I could rec your whole post. Waiting For Everyman Sep 2015 #225
This message was self-deleted by its author Sen. Walter Sobchak Sep 2015 #182
no such thing as a racist black person or sexist woman Doctor_J Sep 2015 #44
Ivory towers pintobean Sep 2015 #46
LOL... yeah- let's all argue to dumb down English and use less precise and meaningful terminology! bettyellen Sep 2015 #188
That's exactly what's going on pintobean Sep 2015 #189
Idiots dumbcat Sep 2015 #63
So you can call me an idiot, but if I did it, i would be hidden, guaranteed. NO, in America a black NoJusticeNoPeace Sep 2015 #121
I did not call you an idiot, by any means dumbcat Sep 2015 #127
True Major Nikon Sep 2015 #220
This message was self-deleted by its author Skittles Sep 2015 #196
that about sums up Snow Leopard Sep 2015 #132
Absolutelt agree. 840high Sep 2015 #172
Well put, and succinct. nt Waiting For Everyman Sep 2015 #219
No. Android3.14 Sep 2015 #3
Yes, facts are facts, speaketh this WHITE person nt steve2470 Sep 2015 #72
Opinion Android3.14 Sep 2015 #86
I completely agree with you Jason Huh Sep 2015 #4
Feel guilty all you want pintobean Sep 2015 #6
Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2015 #32
It really is all about power. JimDandy Sep 2015 #40
Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2015 #49
You don't have to force anything on anyone to be racist AgingAmerican Sep 2015 #103
bigotry would describe that MORE accurately- because racism can and often does mean more- bettyellen Sep 2015 #193
right NoJusticeNoPeace Sep 2015 #30
So if a white person were attacked by non-whites for being white that wouldn't be racism? Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2015 #94
bigotry, because in the USA, non-whites suffer from being in a lower power position nt steve2470 Sep 2015 #106
Seems a distinction without a difference -- particularly to the victim. Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2015 #211
Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2015 #144
+1 nt steve2470 Sep 2015 #165
+1 Starry Messenger Sep 2015 #192
Not only that... OneGrassRoot Sep 2015 #203
I agree that that is the way it is used, almost always. Chemisse Sep 2015 #142
Well that's part of the problem notadmblnd Sep 2015 #5
midandrist is the opposite of misogynist, not the opposite of sexism. Both misognyists merrily Sep 2015 #12
Funny, I've never liked using gender as a synonym for sex. nt raccoon Sep 2015 #19
I know, right? "Have the two of you had gender yet" just doesn't make it. (no pun intended). merrily Sep 2015 #27
There are tons of other words/phrases you could use. raccoon Sep 2015 #83
Huh? Use for what? The issue was using "sex" as a synonym for "gender." merrily Sep 2015 #91
"Having sex" is a slang term 1939 Sep 2015 #120
"Gender" also describes the equipment with which one is born and is not merrily Sep 2015 #124
I did not say it was the opposite just as bigot is not the opposite of racist notadmblnd Sep 2015 #20
I know what the OP said and what you said. I was not contradicting you or arguing with you. merrily Sep 2015 #24
okay. notadmblnd Sep 2015 #26
Sex is a biological condition based on chromosomes. Gender is a social and psychological tblue37 Sep 2015 #88
Context matters--and informs meaning. "Theory" means one thing in common speech and tblue37 Sep 2015 #102
"Racism" and "bigotry" often get conflated Scootaloo Sep 2015 #7
Perhaps because there is a good amount of overlap. merrily Sep 2015 #16
So do "less" and "fewer." Igel Sep 2015 #162
I wasn't going to join the "argument" Scootaloo Sep 2015 #180
If not dispositive, a dictionary is at least relevant as to what words mean. merrily Sep 2015 #8
folks need to go to the AA forum and ask about racism steve2470 Sep 2015 #9
The meaning of words is a different issue from the suffering of peoples (sic) or white privilege. merrily Sep 2015 #15
See you there, merrily! :) nt steve2470 Sep 2015 #57
No, I don't intrude unless I see something in Latest Threads merrily Sep 2015 #114
Thanks melman Sep 2015 #22
the dictionary is too simplistic steve2470 Sep 2015 #59
right to your off topic thought...sucks is putting it mildly NoJusticeNoPeace Sep 2015 #33
yea, sigh steve2470 Sep 2015 #60
Damn Skippy, Steve. MrScorpio Sep 2015 #35
they will be educated steve2470 Sep 2015 #61
You cant, they very badly want to be able to call you a racist. That is all this is about. NoJusticeNoPeace Sep 2015 #110
Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2015 #50
How many is 'enough of them' hfojvt Sep 2015 #51
8% wasn't the only ones who passed fugitive slave laws and slave codes BklnDem75 Sep 2015 #70
They may be reaponsible but they are also dead Travis_0004 Sep 2015 #76
way to be generic hfojvt Sep 2015 #87
Silent consent of the majority... BklnDem75 Sep 2015 #138
This message was self-deleted by its author Marr Sep 2015 #143
that's really just textbook racism right there hfojvt Sep 2015 #160
LOL! That's creative... nt BklnDem75 Sep 2015 #163
waves, smiles, walks away nt steve2470 Sep 2015 #250
Actually melman Sep 2015 #67
+1000 Bobbie Jo Sep 2015 #128
Institutional or systemic animus works systemically. Personal animus still matters. DirkGently Sep 2015 #10
*mic drop* thread winner. n/t X_Digger Sep 2015 #38
nope, no mic drop, we disagree nt steve2470 Sep 2015 #80
+1 Marr Sep 2015 #41
Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2015 #53
Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2015 #55
While you're here... Orrex Sep 2015 #58
Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2015 #68
Excellent post. (n/t) SMC22307 Sep 2015 #56
Do you honestly think kcr Sep 2015 #149
Right. "Institutional racism" doesn't "go both ways." DirkGently Sep 2015 #155
No one is trying to eliminate it kcr Sep 2015 #158
Yes. It is important to distinguish between the two. DirkGently Sep 2015 #164
Well, I guess people read things differently, because you're wrong. kcr Sep 2015 #169
Well no. Here's what the OP actually said DirkGently Sep 2015 #171
If you're talking about institutional racism and sexism it is. kcr Sep 2015 #262
Completely agree. Waiting For Everyman Sep 2015 #207
If a man suffers discrimination based upon sex, then what should we call it? Orrex Sep 2015 #17
I would just call it sexism Travis_0004 Sep 2015 #21
sexual harassment. notadmblnd Sep 2015 #25
Not all sexual discrimination is sexual harassment gollygee Sep 2015 #93
acceptable.....because it's "rare" or some such silliness ileus Sep 2015 #29
"discrimination" gollygee Sep 2015 #92
You're right, it doesn't...except when it does. ileus Sep 2015 #23
please elaborate in great detail, thank you in advance nt steve2470 Sep 2015 #109
It does go both ways. But in vastly different amounts and with different effects. Brickbat Sep 2015 #31
You are pretty clearly wrong mythology Sep 2015 #34
Yes, it does. Sorry to disappoint. <n/t> Shandris Sep 2015 #36
You're confusing terms. Discrimination requires a power imbalance. Not racism or sexism. Xithras Sep 2015 #37
Excellent post. Kaleva Sep 2015 #42
I know plenty of racist and sexist people on both sides... bobclark86 Sep 2015 #43
Power and racism/sexism have everything to do with each other YoungDemCA Sep 2015 #105
Anybody can be racist bobclark86 Sep 2015 #226
Why would't you choose to be more accurate and describe it as bigotry when it fits better? bettyellen Sep 2015 #194
They're conflating racism with prejudice Warpy Sep 2015 #45
Doesn't "ism" imply systems -- ideological, political, etc? OneGrassRoot Sep 2015 #48
This is going pretty predicably. NT. Starry Messenger Sep 2015 #47
yep steve2470 Sep 2015 #65
I almost regret posting the OP. YoungDemCA Sep 2015 #97
To show what this place has become. Starry Messenger Sep 2015 #99
I guess YoungDemCA Sep 2015 #101
The replies illustrate why you were absolutely RIGHT in starting this thread! dzhuboi Sep 2015 #233
because you care :) nt steve2470 Sep 2015 #100
... OneGrassRoot Sep 2015 #123
I'm stunned, totally, over the reactions here. Lyric Sep 2015 #181
I lay the blame at the TOS. The Admins support this kind of horizonal interpretation of racism. Starry Messenger Sep 2015 #185
If they concede this, they can't say the other side is racist and sexist too. KitSileya Sep 2015 #235
Very well said! johnp3907 Sep 2015 #251
Good God, is it ever. Number23 Sep 2015 #234
Unreal, isn't it? Starry Messenger Sep 2015 #240
On DU it's just about anyone who doesn't support a favorite candidate RandySF Sep 2015 #52
What is the definition of racism you're using? nt RedCappedBandit Sep 2015 #54
If white supremacy is a thing in this country... StrongBad Sep 2015 #64
White people still run the country, look at Congress and SCOTUS steve2470 Sep 2015 #71
"Running the country" does not equal supremacy StrongBad Sep 2015 #74
oh give me a break, we white folks run this country and make sure tons of blacks get locked up steve2470 Sep 2015 #75
And yet asians outperform us StrongBad Sep 2015 #77
Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2015 #78
The "model minority" myth gollygee Sep 2015 #89
Except it's not a myth StrongBad Sep 2015 #166
If I believe in Asian supremacy, that's not racist? dumbcat Sep 2015 #66
Racism would be that belief plus the power to do something with it gollygee Sep 2015 #90
So you agree that the belief itself is not racism? dumbcat Sep 2015 #95
Dictionaries are written by the people in power gollygee Sep 2015 #96
Dictionaries are written by linguists AgingAmerican Sep 2015 #112
the GROUP in power gollygee Sep 2015 #115
Linguists aren't in power AgingAmerican Sep 2015 #116
Most are white and most are male and most are men gollygee Sep 2015 #118
Link to your bizarre claim AgingAmerican Sep 2015 #125
Every system and institution in the US is infected with racism. gollygee Sep 2015 #126
Your link says nothing about linguistics AgingAmerican Sep 2015 #129
Dictionaries are made by groups of people within a structure and within institutions gollygee Sep 2015 #130
Linguists aren't politicians AgingAmerican Sep 2015 #133
Holy crap gollygee Sep 2015 #135
That's because AgingAmerican Sep 2015 #136
So if a Spanish linguist in a Spanish country defined racism as a belief StrongBad Sep 2015 #174
And I believe etomologists kiva Sep 2015 #178
Now this makes sense. Chemisse Sep 2015 #159
yes, they are all more accurate terms used because there are important distinctions when racism is bettyellen Sep 2015 #187
Straights who are bigoted against LGBT have power. Bluenorthwest Sep 2015 #213
So then there should be a word for it. Chemisse Sep 2015 #237
Well bigotry with societal power gollygee Sep 2015 #238
Of course it can and does go both ways. Any individual can be racist or sexist. uppityperson Sep 2015 #69
So when the Japanese killed most of my dad's family in WWII calling them an "inferior race".... Lee-Lee Sep 2015 #73
of course what they did was racist steve2470 Sep 2015 #79
The OP was not restricted to the USA dumbcat Sep 2015 #81
I think it's rather obvious. DU has its servers based in the USA... steve2470 Sep 2015 #82
I think it's not obvious. dumbcat Sep 2015 #85
"Democratic Undgerground" kcr Sep 2015 #139
And nothing else is ever discussed dumbcat Sep 2015 #140
No. And I don't believe that was ever the point n/t kcr Sep 2015 #141
Then what was your point? dumbcat Sep 2015 #145
That it isn't true that it isn't obviously a website with an American focus kcr Sep 2015 #146
And we never talk about other countries, European issues dumbcat Sep 2015 #147
Nooooooo kcr Sep 2015 #150
not on the same level. if someone asked ergo do you want as president JI7 Sep 2015 #151
Actually, I think it was originally meant to be "democratic" as in "democracy" Art_from_Ark Sep 2015 #236
My point stands kcr Sep 2015 #263
Ouch. Harsh. Chemisse Sep 2015 #161
You're being called upon to amend your OP to precise legal standards steve2470 Sep 2015 #84
mostly by those who want to distract JI7 Sep 2015 #152
you nailed it nt steve2470 Sep 2015 #154
Who called on the OP to amend the OP? dumbcat Sep 2015 #170
It's a derailing tactic. Starry Messenger Sep 2015 #167
yep nt steve2470 Sep 2015 #168
It can, it is rare as hell with whites mind you nadinbrzezinski Sep 2015 #104
here comes the whitesplaining, as predictable as sunrise mwrguy Sep 2015 #131
Nice. n/t phylny Sep 2015 #200
So is it your position TeddyR Sep 2015 #134
Well said kcr Sep 2015 #137
I understand d_r Sep 2015 #176
So white people as a group are morally inferior to POC Bok_Tukalo Sep 2015 #179
Wow- where did that nonsense come from? bettyellen Sep 2015 #190
The OP. The claim is made that POC cannot be racist yet white people can Bok_Tukalo Sep 2015 #197
you understand that bigotry would be a MUCH more accurate term when there are no systemic effects? bettyellen Sep 2015 #198
And yet bias based on things other than race are often fully supported by systems and institutions Bluenorthwest Sep 2015 #209
nope, the definition for racism has already broadened to mean what it does today. That other words bettyellen Sep 2015 #212
LGBT are not beside the point, and as long as the bigotry of straight people is enforced against us Bluenorthwest Sep 2015 #215
I never said they were. And so, stopped reading after I read that bullshit. Try honest conversations bettyellen Sep 2015 #217
I am talking about this heterocentric definition of bigotry you are foisting. Bluenorthwest Sep 2015 #221
I don't get why you'd like to limit the meaning of words- or ascribe motives to those who use them bettyellen Sep 2015 #223
You have a very good point. Waiting For Everyman Sep 2015 #228
The language already has a means of expressing the idea of institutionalized racism. Marr Sep 2015 #242
wow...just wow steve2470 Sep 2015 #232
This is both a) settled and b) bullshit. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2015 #183
This again? YoungDemCA Sep 2015 #186
Sure, because if one disagrees with subliterate definitions, one MUST be anti-feminist Major Nikon Sep 2015 #222
A productive discussion about institutional racism (or sexism) could be had. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2015 #227
I understand the definition now. Doesn't that open the jwirr Sep 2015 #184
I have two thoughts gollygee Sep 2015 #191
Thank you. That really adds to the definition. And it jwirr Sep 2015 #201
I did notice something. RandySF Sep 2015 #202
Because Bernie is more of a feminist than Hillary and done more for Minorities than the President, orpupilofnature57 Sep 2015 #205
Not that being critical of the President or Hillary would be perceived as either, Right ?? Bullshit orpupilofnature57 Sep 2015 #204
Cornell West? RandySF Sep 2015 #206
Reread what he said. What he really said. jwirr Sep 2015 #241
I Think the objective is Dismissal of Bernie, more than understanding Cornel . orpupilofnature57 Sep 2015 #248
Who has done more for African Americans than Barry & Hillary put together, yeah Cornel West . orpupilofnature57 Sep 2015 #247
Yeah, it's a lot more campaign-oriented than people want to admit. Marr Sep 2015 #244
This whole "collective guilt" line of thinking is a scam. Waiting For Everyman Sep 2015 #208
^^ THIS ^^ jonno99 Sep 2015 #229
It quickly becomes absurd. Marr Sep 2015 #245
This whole "collective guilt" line of thinking just makes the problem worse XemaSab Sep 2015 #210
Exactly. Waiting For Everyman Sep 2015 #214
+1000 nt raouldukelives Sep 2015 #257
Should be an OP. RiffRandell Sep 2015 #231
Sure, that's why civil rights laws only go one way Major Nikon Sep 2015 #216
How super duper convenient! TipTok Sep 2015 #218
This painfully disingenuous claim... MellowDem Sep 2015 #230
Yes--never forget the 'power" part of the equation n/g eridani Sep 2015 #239
Prejudice is a human condition RandySF Sep 2015 #243
No. Disagree. LeftOfWest Sep 2015 #254
Shouldn't this be posted in the White Privilege forum? Democat Sep 2015 #246
What about majority minority cities? MichMan Sep 2015 #252
This message was self-deleted by its author gobears10 Sep 2015 #253
They go whichever direction opportunity presents itself One_Life_To_Give Sep 2015 #255
Ben Carson is a black man who could be president Democat Sep 2015 #256
What should be done about this problem? kcr Sep 2015 #261
Minority and disadvantaged individuals can be racist but RACISM is institutional KittyWampus Sep 2015 #258
Depends on the power balance Prism Sep 2015 #259
Oh look... romanic Sep 2015 #260
A matter of power and position, and history. Garrett78 Sep 2015 #264
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