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Response to Corporate666 (Reply #35)

Thu Jun 23, 2016, 03:14 AM

37. My response.

This is your idea of "dangerous"??

The UK is a sovereign nation. They can do what they like. The EU should break up, or at least stick to doing what works - handling trade - and stop trying to be a one-world government.


What you propose is dangerous, so yes it is my idea of dangerous. What you are proposing is a rise in self-interested nationalism. That is never a good thing for any nation. Not to mention it is never a liberal value. If the EU collapses then all of Europe destabilizes. Ignoring the economic implications of that, both for the people of Europe and the UK as well as the rest of the world, the far worse implications would be the increased nationalism of each nation and the potential for increasing hostility. Old Europe was not a peaceful place--in case you might have forgotten your history. The EU is the glue that holds the peace and stability of Europe together, no matter how imperfect the EU as an institution may be. ...and we should remember that the reason the EU has so many issues and is so imperfect, is because its member nations still want to cling to national sovereignty and independence. The thing that fixes the most critical problems of the EU is increased integration, but this would require its member nations to essentially function more like states in the United States.

In short, the problem here is self-interested nationalism. It is a problem throughout Europe and the UK. It is the source of the problem. Instead of thinking of ways they can increase their ties, come to agreements, and work together to create a more perfect union, they are discussing what is in their best (short term and not long term) interests. It's the difference between "what is good for me" verses "what is good for us."

What's with all this talk of punitive and spite-based politics? You believe the EU needs to ensure economic hassle befalls the UK for having the audacity not to want to remain in the union?


If the UK attempts to act in such a manner that could endanger the long term survival of the EU, those nations states committed to the EU and especially those committed to increased integration of EU nation states, have to send a strong message that leaving the EU has consequences. If the UK can receive all the benefits of being in the EU without actually being part of the EU, then this creates an incentive for other nations to leave because they'll believe they will be similarly rewarded.

If I were advising those who favored deeper EU integration, my recommendation would be to refuse all non-essential trade from the UK. While at the same time reaching out to the member states of the UK and offering them a special and a clear path to join the EU. It is almost certain that if Scotland knew that they could leave the UK and have easy access into the EU, and they knew that they would be supported by the EU in their transition that they would take it. Similarly, if a deal could be struck where Ireland became unified, that would give those living in Northern Ireland immediate access to the EU since Ireland is already a member state. This will leave England a fractured power, controlling a fraction of an island. I would then make it clear that England could join the EU under similar special circumstances, but it would have to fully integrate as well. The same goes for Wales.

As this unfolds, I would encourage popular votes in existing member states to support increased political and economic integration. With the UK out this actually becomes easier to achieve. Then over the coming decade or so, the EU slowly knits itself together to become more like the United States of Europe--where each nation functions similar to a state in the United States. This fully unifies Europe into another great world power, as it should be, and as a result it becomes more stable, more economically prosperous, and better able to deal with many of the economic and political issues it currently faces.

This is good for the people of Europe, good for the people of the UK, and good for the world. Increased isolationism and nationalism is -ALWAYS- bad for the people engaging in it and the rest of the world.

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