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In reply to the discussion: The "extreme left" didn't give us Trump. The path to hell was paved by [View all]pat_k
(9,313 posts)377. Absolutely!
I think the notion that the electorate is some neat left/moderate/right bell curve is ludicrous. I don't claim to understand it all, but I took a shot at defining a few distinct groups I see "out there." I make no assertions about the size of these groups (except 4).
1. Staunch Democrats:
People who will stand strong with Dems no matter what the Dems do.
2. Not Republicans:
People who get out to vote for Dems because Republicans are so much worse. They are at risk for falling into 3. These may not be as strongly "behind" Dems as group 1, but neither are they "moderates" in the sense that they occupy some left leaning/middle ground.
3. Opt Outs:
People who have opted out because they have given up on either party ever doing anything that actually makes a difference.
4. Disenfranchised:
a) People denied the right to vote for life by their status as felons -- about 4 million nationwide (not a trivial number). For example, about 30% of the African American male population of Alabama and Mississippi fall into this category..
b) People denied the right to vote by the suppression tactics we are seeing enacted by Republican controlled legislatures. One of the most effective means -- and one that gets FAR too little attention -- is under-allocation of resources in "certain areas." In areas that had long lines as a consequence of insufficient resources I have no doubt that at least 1 in 10 turned around and went home, or back to work, when they saw the lines.
5. Republican "Swing"
People attracted to Republicans primarily because they perceive them as the "strong ones." They go with "Strong and Wrong" Republicans over "Weak and Right" Dems. Many of these would swing to Dems if Dems demonstrated strength and gave them a real choice between Strong and Wrong, and Strong and Right.
Group 5 is not "moderate" in the sense that they subscribe to some ideology in the "middle. It is the strength they see in the right-wingnuts that they find most attractive.
6. Knee jerk Republicans:
People who just see themselves as "Republican" and vote that way without much thought. Most of them probably always will. People in this group weren't keen on DT. Some stuck with him, some opted out because DT is such a horror show. Aside from the problems some of these have with DT, they go with Republican candidates down ticket. Some would actually start thinking twice if Dems transformed themselves sufficiently to inspire people in groups 3 and 5 to get behind them.
7. Staunch Reps/Dem haters: People whose hatred of Dems is so deep, nothing a Dem could do will ever reach them. Many are far more driven by hatred of Dems feed by the Republican noise machine than the propaganda against reasonable gun control and their commitment to "banning" abortion.
---------------------------------------------------
The current Democratic leadership "strategy" of preemptive surrender ignores the existence of 3 and 5. As a consequence, those groups have just grown larger and larger.
In re: 4, the failure of the leadership to make restoring the right to vote to every person who has "paid their debt to society" is appalling, as is the failure to advocate for the bold steps needed to end mass incarceration.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. The Dems are currently trapped by insidious memes and beltway group think..
They will never win a filibuster-proof majority if they don't break free of the "conventional wisdom." They won't win of a vast majority of state administrations and legislatures. If they don't change, they will not gain the power necessary to create a far more equitable nation over the coming decades.
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The OP is Wrong.. Jill Stein spoiled the 2016 election for Hillary Clinton Gave us trump
Cha
Mar 2017
#111
I stand by the article.. "Jill Stein spoiled the 2016 election for Hillary Clinton "
Cha
Mar 2017
#119
And here is another level truly salient in the 2016 election results -- "Nobody won..."
Samantha
Mar 2017
#193
You are missing the fact that both Stein and Johnson votes increase exponentially since 2008/2012.
boston bean
Mar 2017
#244
Well lets see, in Michigan Hillary lost by .3%. Stein received 1.1% of the vote
still_one
Mar 2017
#139
"Noam Chomsky made that very clear that those "Progressives who refused to vote for Hillary Clinton
Cha
Mar 2017
#152
Of course the responsibility with what we will be going through the next 4 years lies
still_one
Mar 2017
#314
I don't disagree - the elephant in the room is that a hostile foreign power
PatrickforO
Mar 2017
#329
As I said those self-identified progressives who refused to vote for Hillary by either voting third
still_one
Mar 2017
#187
I understand your point. You may not be aware, but we lost a good number of folks here who said
still_one
Mar 2017
#246
I posting the article in response to the first sentence of the OP.. there are other
Cha
Mar 2017
#163
How curious that you're beating up the female candidate, when Gary Johnson (L)...
SMC22307
Mar 2017
#282
It does seem lately that there is an effort to shut down (or shout out) progressives in here.
LiberalLovinLug
Mar 2017
#315
The "angry, bitter minority" had vastly different positions at one time. VASTLY.
SMC22307
Mar 2017
#323
Show me anywhere where ANY of "these same folks" have EVER shown ANY tendency to support cuts to
Squinch
Mar 2017
#480
You call exposing "beating up".. "How Jill Stein and Donald Trump became allies of Vladimir Putin"
Cha
Mar 2017
#347
Your list in your post "It is not a left/moderate/right "divide." isn't complete...
George II
Mar 2017
#455
I stand with Democrats even when they are idiots because I KNOW they are capable of better.
pat_k
Mar 2017
#463
Bashing the crap out of them for things that happened more than a decade and a half ago...
George II
Mar 2017
#464
Naw you keep thinking about past fevers from long ago and keep misconstruing my point..
JHan
Mar 2017
#158
Here is a thread I recently started about Iran-Contra and its relation to what is happening today.
StevieM
Mar 2017
#186
And secondly, your accusations that Democrats have not made the moral case for issues...
JHan
Mar 2017
#200
if you want to whip the democratic party over some shit over 3 decades ago here.. hell..
JHan
Mar 2017
#145
Newsflash: It *ain't* all about you... things are CRITICAL right now for all ages.
SMC22307
Mar 2017
#148
You two are both blind to why trying to fight Trump with Democratic politicians
ProfessorPlum
Mar 2017
#270
Funny how the folks with the least wins think they have all the answers on winning
bravenak
Mar 2017
#271
Funny how the folks that keep losing...House,....Senate.....SCOTUS......State governorships...
LiberalLovinLug
Mar 2017
#289
Excellent, JH.. and Just to be Clear about the "extreme left".. "not" giving us trump as the OP ..
Cha
Mar 2017
#97
The point is to get more of us to run locally to get in. Not forcing ones already in to vote no.
haele
Mar 2017
#325
My only point is that absent clarity and sufficient consensus on basic principles, there...
pat_k
Mar 2017
#486
Me too. I'm at the point of simply ignoring them and not giving them traction anymore
bravenak
Mar 2017
#86
you could say the same for people who want to spend their energy taking it to the "far left." Which
JCanete
Mar 2017
#214
I wouldn't say it. We are fighting republicans constantly while they simply fight us
bravenak
Mar 2017
#291
that isn't true of this poster, and he's listed that over and over. It isn't true that nobody is
JCanete
Mar 2017
#298
All you have are insults.."The "extreme left" didn't give us Trump" stein owns a Chunk of it..
Cha
Mar 2017
#60
I want to hear ideas from people who know how to win and know who the enemy is.
bravenak
Mar 2017
#55
And how has kicking Dems in the ass been a winner? It hasn't. The far left as not racked up
bravenak
Mar 2017
#100
Maybe I am just old enough to remember when Democrats didn't buy into Reaganomics.
Gore1FL
Mar 2017
#107
Takeoff on that old Broadway hit: "A funny thing happened on the way to Democratic Underground".
George II
Mar 2017
#33
If you dont know... That's too bad, cause I don't have time to repeat myself all day.
bravenak
Mar 2017
#269
I've commented several times, only once here, about my disappointment that single
notdarkyet
Mar 2017
#48
The public option was killed because of Joe Lieberman, that was his price for his vote
betsuni
Mar 2017
#120
True. And if we don't make the case -- loud and proud -- we will never generate the political will.
pat_k
Mar 2017
#512
Agree. An example of the contrast is Inslee and WA delegation stand against travel ban.
suffragette
Mar 2017
#7
You will not absolve jill stein's LIES.. she owns a chunk of trump and those who got suckered..
Cha
Mar 2017
#16
So someone didn't get their pony so they figure screw everyone else?
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin
Mar 2017
#47
The extreme left that voted for Bush in Florida in 2000? The extreme left that picked Reagan?
Rex
Mar 2017
#50
Jill Stein spoiled the 2016 election for Hillary Clinton.. there goes your premise..
Cha
Mar 2017
#101
Oh comey was at fault too but the LIES stein told and in Swing States Cost us the election..
Cha
Mar 2017
#339
You are correct, of course. Too many here don't remember when the Democrats weren't cowards
Gore1FL
Mar 2017
#115
Also, as much as I love Obama, I also criticize him for not calling out the Republicans enough
Akamai
Mar 2017
#122
The push to convince us we can only be center right to alt-right is well underway. It's
brewens
Mar 2017
#131
LOLOLOL, So White people supported Trump because REagan,Bush etc wasn't impeached , indicted Etc ?
JI7
Mar 2017
#153
I don't know whether to laugh or cry, but note the absolution this gives to racist whites. nt
msanthrope
Mar 2017
#419
I understand where youre coming from. But since we cant go back, we must go forward and keep this
caroldansen
Mar 2017
#154
I don't think anyone in particular gave us The Con. For DECADES I've been told we should elect
napi21
Mar 2017
#156
Yep, and the excuse from the OP and those that agree with them for not opposing this is that those
stevenleser
Mar 2017
#436
Albeit late but thanks for your response. In hindsight, trump promised people things he
akbacchus_BC
Mar 2017
#378
Your phrase "self-entitled ourgeoisie" to describe the "left" who voted against Hillary
delisen
Mar 2017
#239
lol. they do and white men mostly go for the bigots. thats why they still approve of trump
JI7
Mar 2017
#319
yes, they agree with hating and attacks on minorities. that's what matters to them . Trump is strong
JI7
Mar 2017
#369
right. And your thesis is that racism is more enticing than strength/dominance behavior
ProfessorPlum
Mar 2017
#441
I'm going to explain this to you one more time, slowly, just in case we can have a meeting
ProfessorPlum
Mar 2017
#454
"Strength is truth, spoken with conviction, framed in a moral matrix, and backed up by action"
pat_k
Mar 2017
#460
Yeah, um, no. The extreme left gave us Jill Stein. It also gives us calls 2 primary current Dems
msanthrope
Mar 2017
#236
The DLC hasn't been in existence for more than six years. How could they have driven people away...
George II
Mar 2017
#257
A lot of people don't want to admit that the dems had any responsibility in this clusterfuck.
CrispyQ
Mar 2017
#255
Understood. I actually signed up as a Democrat because or Bernie Sanders & Elizabeth Warren.
iscooterliberally
Mar 2017
#437
"You and others had repeatedly argued that the left didn't affect the election results in any way."
pat_k
Mar 2017
#384
A request for a tally of votes lost the party over three decades is NOT "a simple question."
pat_k
Mar 2017
#407
I've never made that claim either, and I've had a few recent conversations with you on this topic.
JCanete
Mar 2017
#447
You don't have to be interested. It's still here if other people are. Personally, I find it
JCanete
Mar 2017
#452
that is going to be very hard to do. It just takes continuing to be patient i think, and putting in
JCanete
Mar 2017
#501
I want to thank them too, for proving your assertions wrong so all can see. nt
stevenleser
Mar 2017
#534
if stein voters weren't extreme left...then who is?...every vote for her was a vote for trump
beachbum bob
Mar 2017
#427
Nope, wishing doesn't make it so. There is no evidence for what you write. You just want it to be
stevenleser
Mar 2017
#435
I saw it. Just more wishing to make it so. All unproven wild assertions. nt
stevenleser
Mar 2017
#532
Strong, well-conceived OP. I'd toss in also the bandwidth and high ground our leadership loses
JudyM
Mar 2017
#506
Yes they did...they are spoilers who refuse to face reality and consider winning strategies...they
Demsrule86
Mar 2017
#513