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Oak2004

(2,140 posts)
55. I am not sure that a declared war is necessary
Fri Mar 24, 2017, 06:07 AM
Mar 2017

A hypothetical: suppose a traitor conspires to aid a foreign power to conduct a sneak attack against the United States. Would it be reasonable for their defense attorney to argue that, yes, my client absolutely did that, but since there was no declared war at that moment in time, my client is innocent?

"Levying war" requires a common sense understanding. A declaration of war rarely precedes a modern act of war, and often is not even sought anymore. War in the modern era is not a slow process conducted by horse and sailing ship, in which both parties have weeks or months to make their declarations and bring their forces to a prepared battlefield. Wars can start with surprise attacks. They can be conducted by or against non state actors. A war can be initiated and over in 20 minutes, though we all hope never to see such a war.

One of the forms a modern act of war can take is information warfare. An international consensus has formed around the idea that a cyberattack that threatens the survival of a nation and its duly constituted government is an act of war. In such a case it is possible that a act of war might not be detected for months, or even years, after an initial attack -- making it impossible for even the most ardent Constitutionalist to obtain a Declaration of War from Congress until long after war had begun, perhaps not until the war was effectively over.

The only sensible meaning of "levying war" here has to be activities pursuant to an act of war, whether or not Congress had formally declared that war. This attack, which was aimed at damaging or destroying our democracy, fits the emerging understanding of an act of war.

There isn't a lot of case law when it comes to treason. It is understandably a rarely used statute. What little there is includes cases where no declaration of war had occurred.

Absolutely more than one charge could and should be brought here. I'm seeing criminal conspiracy, economic espionage, RICO, money laundering, as obvious charges. But none of those,alone, address the real crime here, which is an attack, not on a server. nor funny business with money, nor any of the other charges. This was an attack on our nation and the principles which define us. Nothing short of treason articulates the nature of this crime.

I would not worry about the listed penalties. They are the minimums. The maximum is death. I would be astonished to see a judge sentence a convicted traitor to anything less than life.

Get thee to the greatest thread section ffr Mar 2017 #1
AMEN!!! Sculpin Beauregard Mar 2017 #2
LOCK 'EM UP! UpInArms Mar 2017 #3
Love me some Painter. mobeau69 Mar 2017 #4
Me too. Quirky lovable old bastage. nt Snotcicles Mar 2017 #10
Bush ethics is an oxymoron. milestogo Mar 2017 #5
"former ethics lawyer for George W Bush" truebluegreen Mar 2017 #6
It's a little like being rejected by the Ku Klux Klan - for being a bigot. tenorly Mar 2017 #14
maybe it means he was an ethical lawyer BEFORE he worked for Bush... yurbud Mar 2017 #34
This whole thing is so unbelievable: that so many Republicans would put themselves and/or party C Moon Mar 2017 #7
I think they should be most proud that they can't even select... dchill Mar 2017 #17
I'll kick and rec. denbot Mar 2017 #8
Hell, if this were Hillary, never mind any Independent Special Prosecutor. calimary Mar 2017 #50
Link to Painter's tweet Julian Englis Mar 2017 #9
Was that bad? ffr Mar 2017 #11
When you lie down with dogs FakeNoose Mar 2017 #20
it was hard getting past "ethics lawyer for bush" to the article. niyad Mar 2017 #12
Well, we know he needed one, right? dchill Mar 2017 #18
Considering the pain and death they've caused defacto7 Mar 2017 #13
I was told treason is only applied to the military. But con man may broaden the definition. SleeplessinSoCal Mar 2017 #15
What about the Rosenbergs? FakeNoose Mar 2017 #21
The Rosenbergs were charged with espionage, not treason Crabby Appleton Mar 2017 #25
Sorry to burst your bubble. The Rosenbergs were convicted of KingCharlemagne Mar 2017 #26
The Rosenbergs were convicted of Conspiracy to Commit Espionage, not treason jmowreader Mar 2017 #28
can't recall if it was on Rachel Maddow wbere that info came from. SleeplessinSoCal Mar 2017 #35
Treason definition cut-and-paste, + Rosenbergs espionage 1951 not treason ColemanMaskell Mar 2017 #36
Thank you. However, We need a new clause. SleeplessinSoCal Mar 2017 #46
Nope..it is in the Constitution pertaining to impeachment. n/t dixiegrrrrl Mar 2017 #42
I am trying to retrace where the idea that treason only pertained to the military came from. SleeplessinSoCal Mar 2017 #45
Does not seem to apply to Republicans DeeDeeNY Mar 2017 #57
Welcome Grizzled ! FailureToCommunicate Mar 2017 #16
Thanks Grizzled Ol Granddad Mar 2017 #40
Just try and catch me gezzer... FailureToCommunicate Mar 2017 #44
They finally used the T word LiberalLovinLug Mar 2017 #19
But DU has repeatedly told me that it's not treason Orrex Mar 2017 #22
Depending on what actions are proven, it would be interesting to see the possible charges... HopeAgain Mar 2017 #23
Yeah, I don't care if he's ousted because of unpaid parking tickets Orrex Mar 2017 #24
DJT is a nightmare come true, but -- Pence? Paul Ryan? Is that a path forward? ColemanMaskell Mar 2017 #38
I prefer "Fraud" on the people of the United States (and KingCharlemagne Mar 2017 #27
Yeah, technially treason can only be in wartime? Crash2Parties Mar 2017 #41
Kick. dchill Mar 2017 #29
Painter will get a serious finger-wagging LanternWaste Mar 2017 #30
It seems Republicans are having a bit of a crisis C_U_L8R Mar 2017 #31
Of course it is. It was obvious to anyone paying attention since the platform change at the RNC. nt SunSeeker Mar 2017 #32
kick KewlKat Mar 2017 #33
That's it, exactly Oak2004 Mar 2017 #37
It's only war if Congress passes a formal declaration of war ColemanMaskell Mar 2017 #39
One count of treason for each US citizen plenty of years RainCaster Mar 2017 #52
I am not sure that a declared war is necessary Oak2004 Mar 2017 #55
treason also includes "adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort" ColemanMaskell Mar 2017 #58
"Enemy". Igel Mar 2017 #61
I'd say Vlad supported the election of DJT, but probably does not specifically support him now ColemanMaskell Mar 2017 #62
"levying of war" might apply actually ColemanMaskell Mar 2017 #60
The Republicans are wearing the label proudly and openly. Kablooie Mar 2017 #43
Painter on Lawrence O'Donnell NEXT! N/T SleeplessinSoCal Mar 2017 #47
Unpresidented (n/t) Kennah Mar 2017 #48
Welcome to DU, Grizzled Ol Granddad! calimary Mar 2017 #49
Trump makes the Bush administration look like a bastion of moral government. phleshdef Mar 2017 #51
Fun to see GWB on a late night show, happy as a clam not to be viewed as the super villain anymore. ColemanMaskell Mar 2017 #53
We dont need a special prosecutor thats not beholden to the Repugnants as they knew about Russias cstanleytech Mar 2017 #54
Yep. It's treason. Recced, thanks. Mc Mike Mar 2017 #56
unconstitutional enid602 Mar 2017 #59
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