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Straw Man

(6,613 posts)
70. Ecosystems are not moral agents.
Tue Apr 20, 2021, 11:29 PM
Apr 2021

I will grant that the human species is far too "successful" for its own good or for the health of the planet. I think what you're overlooking is that ecosystems are don't achieve some ideal stasis and then freeze there; they're constantly changing as species evolve and become extinct.

From the point of view of human settlement, taking large predators out of the equation certainly has been beneficial, at least in the short term. It's good to be the apex predator, and it sucks to be the prey.

We can't reduce the size of our cities until we reduce the population -- that's a given. But even at a lower level of population density, coexistence with large predators is problematic. You can't send Junior out to walk the dog if there's a chance that neither one of them will return. That has always been the struggle.

"Because bear acts like a bear, he must die." - most bears don't attack humans. n/t PoliticAverse Apr 2021 #1
Did you read the article? He was protecting his food source. n/t Coventina Apr 2021 #5
And when it charged the wildlife agents, MarineCombatEngineer Apr 2021 #7
Why? They were in HIS territory and (from his POV) threatening HIS food. n/t Coventina Apr 2021 #9
So they were supposed to just stand there and let the bear attack them also? MarineCombatEngineer Apr 2021 #13
A charge is generally a warning sign to get the hell away. Most animals attack as a last resort. Coventina Apr 2021 #18
All good points. MarineCombatEngineer Apr 2021 #20
Thank goodness for that. n/t Coventina Apr 2021 #23
Have you ever been charged by a grizzly? DenaliDemocrat Apr 2021 #89
How about we transport the bear and the carcass to where you live and work? alphafemale Apr 2021 #42
Please do. I'll wait. n/t Coventina Apr 2021 #44
Yeah, I thought they try not to kill if there is an "excuse" for the attack. Hassin Bin Sober Apr 2021 #67
It's not clear from what's here, but sounds like they discovered the excuse for the attack ToxMarz Apr 2021 #81
Chances are it would have been tranquilized and relocated Warpy Apr 2021 #32
I don't know if you've ever seen the videos Timothy Treadwell made... PoliticAverse Apr 2021 #35
Food was involved in this case. That is what made the difference. n/t Coventina Apr 2021 #37
Until they eat you alive alphafemale Apr 2021 #43
That was in Alaska Major Nikon Apr 2021 #75
If he was the daredevil who ended up as a grizzly's dinner Warpy Apr 2021 #54
Yes -- I've seen the whole documentary. Straw Man Apr 2021 #63
Amazing that people are still using Timothy Treadwell as an example alphafemale Apr 2021 #76
Is He The Guy Who Went Camping In Bear Territory? COL Mustard Apr 2021 #82
Yes. PoliticAverse Apr 2021 #83
He was right near... 2naSalit Apr 2021 #2
Was it near Bakers Hole? DEbluedude Apr 2021 #46
Yes. 2naSalit Apr 2021 #50
I was fishing there once with my dad and brother. DEbluedude Apr 2021 #52
Bear kills a man fishing alone, then charges the wild life workers. Dream Girl Apr 2021 #3
Why? It was protecting its food. n/t Coventina Apr 2021 #6
You gotta be kidding. So motive must be taken into account? Maybe have a trial? Dream Girl Apr 2021 #12
Absolutely motive matters. A charge does not necessarily end in an attack Coventina Apr 2021 #19
Actually, yes. 2naSalit Apr 2021 #53
i'm sorry for the bear, MarineCombatEngineer Apr 2021 #4
I'm always going to take the side of the animal. Always. We are in THEIR territory. Coventina Apr 2021 #8
I commend and respect you for your stand on this, MarineCombatEngineer Apr 2021 #10
Thanks. n/t Coventina Apr 2021 #14
If it was near his house and a campground.. EX500rider Apr 2021 #11
A "campground" is not human territory. Nor are homes in "bear country". n/t Coventina Apr 2021 #15
Places where humans live is their territory just like all animals EX500rider Apr 2021 #33
As I posted elsewhere, smart humans know that if they are in bear territory, they are not top dog. Coventina Apr 2021 #36
As a life-long camper and hiker I wholly agree... LanternWaste Apr 2021 #64
Humans are animals also. The person that was killed was in THEIR terrirory as well. PoliticAverse Apr 2021 #16
Smart humans know that they are not "top dog" if they live in bear country. Coventina Apr 2021 #22
If you are looking for natural balances which we have altered the prime place for that is in cities PoliticAverse Apr 2021 #29
Bear attacks are relatively rare. This one was instigated because of a specific trigger: food. Coventina Apr 2021 #31
He should have allowed the beat who's already killed another person in an unprovoked attack to Dream Girl Apr 2021 #17
It's not quite that simple but... 2naSalit Apr 2021 #25
He didn't have to kill the human Polybius Apr 2021 #39
As I said downthread: I'm not in favor of bears attacking humans. Coventina Apr 2021 #41
I don't think that was the bear's perception. 2naSalit Apr 2021 #57
Well I think all animals are innocent even man-eaters..except one! StClone Apr 2021 #58
I'm guessing that's mostly due to vehicle strikes. Coventina Apr 2021 #59
That is pretty much my take. StClone Apr 2021 #61
Large predators. Straw Man Apr 2021 #65
We need to cut the human population drastically. And reduce the size of our cities. Coventina Apr 2021 #68
Ecosystems are not moral agents. Straw Man Apr 2021 #70
Hominids have existed on the planet for about a million years, give or take. Coventina Apr 2021 #71
Oh, I'll grant you that we're causing havoc. Straw Man Apr 2021 #74
If you think morality is a human construct then you don't truly understand evolution. n/t Coventina Apr 2021 #80
So please explain ... Straw Man Apr 2021 #85
Sorry for late reply, it's been a busy day. Coventina Apr 2021 #86
No worries. Straw Man Apr 2021 #87
"There's nothing moral about nature." Absolutely. shrike3 Apr 2021 #84
I know the guide's employer well... 2naSalit Apr 2021 #21
I'm not in favor of bears attacking humans, I should probably make that clear. Coventina Apr 2021 #28
And many small animals too. 2naSalit Apr 2021 #34
I was hoping you would weigh in here. MontanaMama Apr 2021 #40
That's the truth of it. 2naSalit Apr 2021 #47
That's the whole problem. MontanaMama Apr 2021 #69
Down where this event took place... 2naSalit Apr 2021 #78
A previous incident: mahatmakanejeeves Apr 2021 #24
I am hardly well acquainted with these situations. shrike3 Apr 2021 #48
Timing in deployment of they spray is crucial. 2naSalit Apr 2021 #26
Inexcusable for the man to be fishing there appalachiablue Apr 2021 #49
Complacency is common in these parts. 2naSalit Apr 2021 #51
Well he did attack the helicopter as well cinematicdiversions Apr 2021 #27
Go punish yourself sarisataka Apr 2021 #30
I used to live in West Yellowstone Mysterian Apr 2021 #38
"The bear always dies when humans are careless." Which is why I take the position I take. Coventina Apr 2021 #45
another who supports the bear here. We really don't understand nature well at all. NewHendoLib Apr 2021 #55
Much of nature is trying to kill us. From tiny viruses to large mamals. n/t PoliticAverse Apr 2021 #62
and we bring it on ourselves, in my opinion. WE are a highly flawed species. NewHendoLib Apr 2021 #66
Depressing. Wingus Dingus Apr 2021 #56
Too few grizzlies left to kill one. byronius Apr 2021 #60
The bear was killed amcgrath Apr 2021 #72
He hadn't lost his fear of humans. He was AFRAID the humans were after his food. Coventina Apr 2021 #73
I just wish it had been Don Jr out there fishing. nt Ilsa Apr 2021 #77
Too much like hard work for that to happen. Unfortunately. (n) Paladin Apr 2021 #79
I've known some of these "wildlife workers" who "investigate" animal attacks Mysterian Apr 2021 #88
I used to solo backpack in bear country back in the 70's... Rollo Apr 2021 #90
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