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In reply to the discussion: Man shopping for coffee creamer at Walmart attacked by vigilante for carrying gun he was legally per [View all]gcomeau
(5,764 posts)386. Then you haven't thought very hard about it.
"Are you more or less dead if you are beaten to death with a pipe as opposed to being shot? "
As I said, difference in threat determinations. VAST goddamn difference.
If I see someone carrying a pipe my first and most obvious conclusion is that they intend to use it for something that involves the transport of a liquid or a gas from one place to another. Is there some miniscule chance they intend to use it to crush someone's skull? Sure. But it is a very very very very VERY tiny one. Out of all the times in your life you see someone working with a pipe the odds that person will ever use a pipe to assault and kill another human being are barely worth mentioning.
On the other hand if you see someone with a freaking gun the odds that they will end up using it to shot high velocity projectiles at another human being is orders of magnitude greater than the odds some guy with a pipe is going to beat someone to death with it. Pipe's are made for plumbing. Yes, they can be turned to secondary uses but they're not exactly the ideal murder weapon are they?
Guns are made for FREAKING SHOOTING PEOPLE WITH. They are an excellent murder weapon. They are designed specifically with their facility at killing other human beings in mind. When you see someone with a gun what you see is "oh look, there's a guy with a weapon designed to kill other people with". That's what that is. And that is not what you generally see when you look at guy with pipe, nor should it be what you see.
Now are the odds in favor of any given person with a gun being about to use it to kill someone? Of course fucking not. But exactly what odds do you expect your fellow citizens to find acceptable when the bet they're making is whether they're about to die?
Would you voluntarily place yourself, unnecessarily, in situation where there was a 1 in 100 chance you were going to be killed?
How about one in 200?
How about 1 in 5000? If it was 1 in 5000 would you be ok with that? Because I'll tell you right now if your odds of dying on a flight were 1 in 5000 all the damn airlines would be out of business and rightly so.
What if it was your kid and not you? What would the odds have to be then?
And now, when you answer that question for yourself tell me this. What if the actions of another person FORCED you or people you cared about into a situation where those odds were unacceptable to you? Would you be justified in taking steps to address that *in self defense*?
It is not a matter of whether the guy was likely right about whether a person with a gun where that person had no need to have gun was really going to shoot someone. It is about whether his risk/reward calculation regarding that happening given the circumstances was reasonable.
Hard to argue it wasn't.
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Man shopping for coffee creamer at Walmart attacked by vigilante for carrying gun he was legally per [View all]
sarisataka
Jan 2015
OP
The only Clarence I know is white, why would you assume he was black? n/t
A Simple Game
Jan 2015
#122
So white guy assumes black guy is up to no good, really? never heard of that before
NoJusticeNoPeace
Jan 2015
#230
I know 12 Clarence's and not one is black, now if you said Bob or Mike that would be different
juxtaposed
Jan 2015
#160
and the fact that foster is white, and daniels is black has absolutely nothing to do with it, right?
niyad
Jan 2015
#172
Before or after he jammed the fire doors shut with his vehicle, and then started shooting?
AtheistCrusader
Jan 2015
#297
Most crimes don't result in dead people if you guess wrong about pre-empting it.
gcomeau
Jan 2015
#353
Your counterpoint completely breaks down in the face of a drunk driver.
AtheistCrusader
Jan 2015
#355
The notion that an innocent person has the right to walk in public without being assaulted
cui bono
Jan 2015
#356
Problem with that is we see pictures and reports of WHITE people PROUDLY (and stupidly) carrying
NoJusticeNoPeace
Jan 2015
#302
Who is safer? Had Mr. Daniels defended himself against this mentally disturbed
jtuck004
Jan 2015
#145
Still pellet guns are not "toy guns"..and can be used for hunting small game & pests.
EX500rider
Jan 2015
#325
They are all vigilantes, why carry a killing machine around in public? It gives them purpose in life..sad.
Fred Sanders
Jan 2015
#72
The police will tell you to stop bothering them if he or she isn't doing anything threatening.
AtheistCrusader
Jan 2015
#13
911 will help you with that litmus test. It goes like this. "Is he threatening anyone, or acting in
AtheistCrusader
Jan 2015
#44
No, that was a toy gun, he died because he could only pretend to defend himself.
A Simple Game
Jan 2015
#139
In certain states and local towns, the majority will be walking in the store with guns
Reter
Jan 2015
#76
Actually no. Disproportionate use of force. His life not in danger, he is in a public space etc.
on point
Jan 2015
#75
I love that you are essentially castigating this man for showing restraint.
AtheistCrusader
Jan 2015
#126
He was not attacked for carrying a gun. He was attacked because he is black and carrying a gun.
TeamPooka
Jan 2015
#318
That man was murdered by a 'well intentioned' bystander that lied and called police.
AtheistCrusader
Jan 2015
#20
Yes, much more safe to wait until someone starts shooting. Because that never happens.
djean111
Jan 2015
#9
Wow, that's a non-logical stretch - no, everyone who carries a gun into a mall or store MIGHT
djean111
Jan 2015
#324
I am saying that there is no way to tell if a man carrying a gun into a mall or store is
djean111
Jan 2015
#335
The pervasive fear of the gun nuts justifies their killing machines even in legislatures...they are
Fred Sanders
Jan 2015
#74
The GOP, Fox and the NRA have been very good, you again have it backwards.
Fred Sanders
Jan 2015
#80
Yawn, the NRA/GOP/Fox propaganda points are tired and worn thin, sir...but it is all you got, we get it.
Fred Sanders
Jan 2015
#138
That's far from the first instance of that sort of thing from him:
friendly_iconoclast
Jan 2015
#240
I didn't mean a license. I meant an unconcealed gun when the letter of the law calls for concealed.
Sunlei
Jan 2015
#177
I wondered because its usually parking lots where someone who carries pays the most attention.
Sunlei
Jan 2015
#187
It is very difficult to tell the difference between a nut with a gun and a gun nut. nt.
Warren Stupidity
Jan 2015
#48
Wonder if he would have been so "well-intentioned" if the guy wasn't Black.
progressoid
Jan 2015
#49
Take suicide out of the equation and guns aren't so dangerous to innocent bystanders, are they?
hack89
Jan 2015
#146
We were talking about the threat to my family, remember? In the town where I live.
hack89
Jan 2015
#167
Sorry, I shouldn't have assumed you've never *needed* those detectors.
AtheistCrusader
Jan 2015
#303
"And you?" Did you take any college statistics courses? Does your job require analysis?
Taitertots
Jan 2015
#250
Any other legal activities you think folks should be assaulted and battered for?
Glengoolie
Jan 2015
#278
Sure, if you suffer some mental deficiency that requires you to think only literally
Orrex
Jan 2015
#286
The amazing thing is that some people miss the obvious parrallels to the Eric Brown case
Taitertots
Jan 2015
#208
A pack of hypocrites and selective tough guys, advocating violence against the law abiding
friendly_iconoclast
Jan 2015
#246
40 year old white guy tackles 62 year old black guy from back. Stinking coward. n/t
jtuck004
Jan 2015
#113
why is there sympathy for the ammosexual? obviously his gun was not WELL hidden.
pansypoo53219
Jan 2015
#210
Sigh, because his was violently assaulted for doing absolutely nothing wrong or illegal,
branford
Jan 2015
#215
Where I come from, we learned shooting an unarmed man is NEVER legitimate.
ncjustice80
Jan 2015
#258
Why dont you ask Michael Brown's family about their opinion on the subject?
ncjustice80
Jan 2015
#338
Black man carrying gun = attack him. White man carrying gun = excersizing Constitional rights. nt
TeamPooka
Jan 2015
#312
I'm kind of surprised Wally World didn't make crap up to get Daniels arrested instead of Foster.
47of74
Jan 2015
#350
The so called vigilante is lucky the guy wasn't an off duty, undercover cop.
ohnoyoudidnt
Jan 2015
#359
I hope the guy who got tackled sues the other guy, and walmart, and wins big. I've seen people
ND-Dem
Jan 2015
#362