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Jim Lane

(11,175 posts)
36. The point is that there's division in the party about the subject.
Sat Aug 12, 2017, 12:11 PM
Aug 2017

You've introduced the subject of this proposed pledge, which I wasn't aware of. I was talking about the bill, Conyers's HR676, which currently has 116 cosponsors, a majority of the House Dems -- but not including Pelosi and Hoyer. Therefore, there's an internal division, with the leadership disagreeing with the majority of the caucus.

Incidentally, the bill does provide for tax increases, but only in general terms. At thirteen pages long (as displayed in LibreOffice), it's in between a one-paragraph pledge and the full text (presumably several hundred pages or maybe a couple thousand) that will eventually be enacted for full implementation. Even this bill, however, could probably be enacted as is (without specific tax increases). I don't share the intermittent Republican fetish about not increasing the deficit. (I call it intermittent because they set it aside whenever they want to give big tax cuts to their paymasters.)

You advance an argument for saying that support for single payer isn't all that great an idea. You're perfectly free to make that argument. My point is not (except sarcastically, for rhetorical purposes) to accuse you or people who agree with you of sowing division or helping Republicans. I'm just objecting to the way that such a charge is being leveled against the progressives.

It's the same deal with regard to midterm strategy. Opinions differ. Let each side make its case, without being accused of disloyalty or of helping Republicans.

My personal opinion on midterm strategy is that pushing for single payer is a good strategy in some states and districts but not in others. The roster of Democratic candidates for the Senate next year will likely include both Joe Manchin and Elizabeth Warren. It's not necessary that the two of them, along with Sherrod Brown and Joe Donnelly and a couple dozen other candidates, hash out a common platform that they'll all run on.

It's also worth noting, from that same Pew poll, that the movement is in the progressives' direction:

Among those who see a government responsibility to provide health coverage for all, more now say it should be provided through a single health insurance system run by the government, rather than through a mix of private companies and government programs. Overall, 33% of the public now favors such a “single payer” approach to health insurance, up 5 percentage points since January and 12 points since 2014. Democrats – especially liberal Democrats – are much more supportive of this approach than they were even at the start of this year. {from "Public support for ‘single payer’ health coverage grows, driven by Democrats" {emphasis added}}


One reason that change has occurred is that people, including elected officials and candidates, have been pushing single payer. There's sometimes a tradeoff between catering to public opinion as it now stands (so as to maximize the chance of getting elected) and speaking out in favor of good policy (so as to move public opinion).
Lets see if we are smart or not. 4now Aug 2017 #1
Yes, lets be smart Dems and not fall for purity tests. riversedge Aug 2017 #54
Yeah. shanny Aug 2017 #63
No. Actually this isn't like any of those things. lapucelle Aug 2017 #102
Kicked and Recommended NBachers Aug 2017 #2
K & R!!! NanceGreggs Aug 2017 #3
meh Lithos Aug 2017 #4
Hardly. zentrum Aug 2017 #5
Obamacare saved tens of thousands of lives, including my brother's. SunSeeker Aug 2017 #7
Well, sure... zentrum Aug 2017 #90
If it's just a matter of framing, why couldn't they do it in Vermont? SunSeeker Aug 2017 #91
Women may just not come so easily apcalc Aug 2017 #104
We should aspire fo health care like Germany GulfCoast66 Aug 2017 #94
That would be great too. zentrum Aug 2017 #95
It is similar. apcalc Aug 2017 #107
Single payer supporters should get behind Rep. Conyers Medicare for All bill. lapucelle Aug 2017 #106
Is this the same Dana Milbank ornotna Aug 2017 #6
Milbank apparently votes a write-in for presidential elections. SunSeeker Aug 2017 #9
I disagree with the author and his "policy" ornotna Aug 2017 #12
Yup. KPN Aug 2017 #39
My thoughts exactly. Milbank likes to present as though he is objective, KPN Aug 2017 #38
It is. He's a conservative with all the deeply held convictions of a noodle Warpy Aug 2017 #56
The Berniebros may be trying murielm99 Aug 2017 #8
True. SunSeeker Aug 2017 #11
How have candidates backed by the DNC, the DCCC done over the past 8 years? KPN Aug 2017 #40
It is wrong to say I am spreading "false stuff." SunSeeker Aug 2017 #58
No but Milbanks does when he uses KPN Aug 2017 #76
This thread is about strategy. SunSeeker Aug 2017 #79
'Berniebros" malign the Democratic Party? Ghost Dog Aug 2017 #85
Thank you. KPN Aug 2017 #87
With all due respect, when the strategy KPN Aug 2017 #89
I Say NOTHING! Doug the Dem Aug 2017 #10
these people are trolls. they may use sanders name but their only goal is trolling and to help JI7 Aug 2017 #13
Don't believe that about Turner Vetteguy Aug 2017 #14
Ding! Ding! Ding! Nina Turner fronts for anyone willing to give her money. She lost her race for.. Tarheel_Dem Aug 2017 #17
I agree with Dana. n/t Tarheel_Dem Aug 2017 #15
And despite your disclaimer at the bottom, this was just alerted on. GoneOffShore Aug 2017 #16
Thanks. We really need to decide on the best strategy to win the midterms. SunSeeker Aug 2017 #18
Someone alerted this? Vetteguy Aug 2017 #22
Actually, Pelosi and Hoyer are coming to the Republicans' rescue. Jim Lane Aug 2017 #19
They are Democrats while the others aren't Vetteguy Aug 2017 #23
The majority of the House DEMOCRATS are cosponsoring HR 676. Jim Lane Aug 2017 #37
The majority of House Dems have not signed on to a tax to pay for it. SunSeeker Aug 2017 #49
You're trying to dodge the basic point. Jim Lane Aug 2017 #51
No, I am not. The specifics of how to pay for single payer is VERY important. SunSeeker Aug 2017 #55
I note you didn't answer my question about the charge in your OP. Jim Lane Aug 2017 #59
Those 117 Dems are NOT demanding a single payer litmus test for all Dem midterm candidates. SunSeeker Aug 2017 #61
Our Revolution is perfectly free to decide whom to endorse. Jim Lane Aug 2017 #65
They don't just endorse, they trash the centrist Dem. SunSeeker Aug 2017 #70
More of this loaded language. Jim Lane Aug 2017 #71
It is one thing to argue the merits of a policy, it is another to say a Dem is bought by Wall Street SunSeeker Aug 2017 #72
It's not as clear as you seem to think Jim Lane Aug 2017 #75
Maligning and misrepresenting Dems as "Establishment Dems" is not the best strategy. nt SunSeeker Aug 2017 #80
But maligning and misrepresenting Dems as "Bernie Bros" IS the best strategy? Jim Lane Aug 2017 #81
"Establishment Dems" is a "useful term" only for Republicans. SunSeeker Aug 2017 #82
Fine, tell me what term you want. Jim Lane Aug 2017 #83
Dems. Why is it so important for you to label people? Regardless, this thread is about strategy. SunSeeker Aug 2017 #84
OK, so you're attacking "Bernie Bros" but insisting that everyone else must say only "Dems" Jim Lane Aug 2017 #86
I'm not attacking anyone, I'm questioning Our Revolution's single payer strategy. SunSeeker Aug 2017 #93
It is not a "bill for single payer." It is merely a "Pledge." SunSeeker Aug 2017 #29
The point is that there's division in the party about the subject. Jim Lane Aug 2017 #36
Good post! Thank you for taking the time to express such well-reasoned thinking on this. KPN Aug 2017 #41
You can't "leave the specifics to local candidates." SunSeeker Aug 2017 #53
Your call for Democratic lockstep is both impractical and unnecessary. Jim Lane Aug 2017 #60
It is Our Revolution who is demanding lockstep fealty on single payer. SunSeeker Aug 2017 #62
See my response in #65. (n/t) Jim Lane Aug 2017 #67
Well if you demand specifics, KPN Aug 2017 #73
It is easy to sell single payer. It is not easy to sell a tax on the middle class. SunSeeker Aug 2017 #74
Then let's work harder at selling the KPN Aug 2017 #77
Only REPUBLICANS "have given lip service to jobs for decades." SunSeeker Aug 2017 #78
Jim L might have a point if any of Bernie's handpicked candidates had actually won with his.... Tarheel_Dem Aug 2017 #103
As opposed to the astonishing successes of the current Party leadership? Jim Lane Aug 2017 #108
Are you saying there haven't been any Democratic victories since the '16 election? If so.... Tarheel_Dem Aug 2017 #109
Uh, no, I wasn't saying anything like that. Jim Lane Aug 2017 #111
I'm glad we agree that I was right. Tarheel_Dem Aug 2017 #112
I really *hope* you're kidding. Jim Lane Aug 2017 #113
HR 676 does not set a tax to fund it. That is how Vermont single payer died. SunSeeker Aug 2017 #46
Just popping in to say how much I've enjoyed reading your posts in this thread. femmedem Aug 2017 #105
"insufficiently pure"? Ninsianna Aug 2017 #96
My point is the hypocrisy of decrying "divisiveness" but doing so *selectively* Jim Lane Aug 2017 #97
My point is that the hypocrisy was from the people doing all the dividing, and the outrage Ninsianna Aug 2017 #98
Sorry, but you're exhibiting the same double standard as the OP. Jim Lane Aug 2017 #99
But I am not, and I've explained the false equivalency you're trying to engage in here. Ninsianna Aug 2017 #100
You say "false equivalence" because you refuse to respect other Democrats' views Jim Lane Aug 2017 #110
Thanks for all that! LovesPNW Aug 2017 #101
get RID of the DC consultants and talk to humans. better deal??? how bout FAIR DEAL? pansypoo53219 Aug 2017 #20
I like that. SunSeeker Aug 2017 #21
Excellent! KPN Aug 2017 #42
Perhaps all of us Bernie Bros Indepatriot Aug 2017 #24
Interesting talking point very familiar. Vetteguy Aug 2017 #27
So universal healthcare is a litmus test but women's choice and freedom isn't? TeamPooka Aug 2017 #25
Medicare for All & Universal Healthcare are not the same thing delisen Aug 2017 #30
Straw man deflection debate point. Thanks for playing. TeamPooka Aug 2017 #45
So we're supposed to throw out logic? No thanks. delisen Aug 2017 #66
+1111! KPN Aug 2017 #43
Post removed Post removed Aug 2017 #26
This is a site for Democrats Vetteguy Aug 2017 #28
Dana Milbank nailed it. NurseJackie Aug 2017 #31
I will never surrender to the far Left extremists.......NEVER !!!!!!! Trust Buster Aug 2017 #32
Huh? What the heck does that mean? KPN Aug 2017 #44
I'm sorry GaryCnf Aug 2017 #33
There ARE Trump voters that support Obamacare. SunSeeker Aug 2017 #48
Rasmussen? GaryCnf Aug 2017 #50
Trump won by a total of 72,000 votes in three swing states. SunSeeker Aug 2017 #57
First, let me apologize for the numbers GaryCnf Aug 2017 #64
NO cuts to SS, Medicare, Medicare; raise taxes on the rich to pay for infrastructure jobs. SunSeeker Aug 2017 #68
You know something GaryCnf Aug 2017 #69
This is a powerful critique and well worth considering mcar Aug 2017 #34
Indeed.. I had the same reaction. nt SunSeeker Aug 2017 #47
K & R. JHan Aug 2017 #35
. LovesPNW Aug 2017 #52
Instead of posting this idiot diatribe to bobalew Aug 2017 #88
It is Our Revolution's single payer litmus test that is divisive. SunSeeker Aug 2017 #92
Great editorial Gothmog Aug 2017 #114
Do I have to repeat my post again? rock Aug 2017 #115
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