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Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
28. I'm fine with what Corbyn's doing there. I've never been rabidly anti-EU and you know it.
Thu Jun 22, 2017, 02:10 AM
Jun 2017

It's just that I've acknowledged the problems with the institution.

I don't oppose grassroots organizations trying to reverse Brexit. Our only real point of disagreement here is the idea that Labour should put reversing Brexit above all other things. I'd rather see Labour lead the fight against the barbaric benefits sanctions policy the Tories implemented, for repeal of Thatcher's anti-worker laws, for the creation of a economic model that treats people with dignity and respect. You think Labour SHOULD put the fight to stop Brexit above all of that. For some reason, you think that doing so could actually lead to the election of a progressive government of some sort for the UK. You have the right to your opinion.

I think your feelings about Corbyn are driven by he apparent Labour-Tory cooperation in Scotland. It was Kezia Dugdale who did that, and the way Labour is set up, Corbyn could do nothing to stop her. I doubt that he wanted to see a Tory comeback north of the Tweed. The cooperation with the Tories there was indefensible, as it was in the Indyref-but I doubt Corbyn could have stopped it, or survived in the leadership if he'd made it known that Labour wouldn't try to make any gains in Scotland. And I think you'd have to acknowledge that some of the seat changes happened there simply because the SNP has declined in support as a party. When that happens, a party is going to lose some seats.


I'd like to see either an EU that stops being rigidly neoliberal and rigidly anti-worker and gives the 99% some say in what it stands for. I followed the referendum campaign online pretty regularly, and don't recall hearing any of the major figures supporting Remain making any pledges to fight for EU reform or challenging the EU to ease off on the spending constraints it imposes-constraints it never had any right or justification for imposing in the first place. Would you at least agree that Remain supporters should have taken a Remain and Reform, or Remain and Rebel position, rather than just universally saying "Remain and live with everything staying just the way it is now"?

It should be possible to have a united Europe with economically humane values. If the Remain campaign had pledged to fight for that, to make that a priority, I think the outcome would have been different.

I'd have a bit more respect for the arguments there... Ken Burch Jun 2017 #1
Ha, wondered when you'd be along. Denzil_DC Jun 2017 #2
Is there any possible honorable way for Labour to go full-on anti-Brexit at this point? Ken Burch Jun 2017 #3
OK, I'll try to take this para by para. But first your OP line: Denzil_DC Jun 2017 #4
I'm aware that a large group of Labour politicians before Corbyn came along Ken Burch Jun 2017 #5
Do you have any idea the economic mess the UK was in before it joined the EC? Denzil_DC Jun 2017 #6
What was done to Greece is what will be done to ANY left government under the EU. Ken Burch Jun 2017 #7
You mentioned the Attlee example simply because you don't have any answer at all Denzil_DC Jun 2017 #8
There is some pretty good stuff in Labour's platform... T_i_B Jun 2017 #9
Thanks, T_i_B. Denzil_DC Jun 2017 #10
The reason why they can get away with it right now.... T_i_B Jun 2017 #11
"white van man", not "white can man" Ken Burch Jun 2017 #12
Dude, if you're going to pick on an obvious typo Denzil_DC Jun 2017 #13
Sorry, the "can man" thing was meant as a joke Ken Burch Jun 2017 #14
Read this thread here: Denzil_DC Jun 2017 #15
I know the routine. And I'd have voted Remain. Ken Burch Jun 2017 #16
See, for you it's the luxury of being a hypothetical issue. Denzil_DC Jun 2017 #17
This is pretty much the same argument.... T_i_B Jun 2017 #18
Well, the Labour manifesto's carefully worded. Denzil_DC Jun 2017 #19
I'm not "rabid anti-EU". I support them on the parts of what they do that are progressive. Ken Burch Jun 2017 #25
Well, "Jeremy" must be a grave disappointment to you. Denzil_DC Jun 2017 #27
I'm fine with what Corbyn's doing there. I've never been rabidly anti-EU and you know it. Ken Burch Jun 2017 #28
First of all, I do agree that the Remain campaign was very poor; that if it had been better we might LeftishBrit Jun 2017 #29
"I think your feelings about Corbyn are driven by he apparent Labour-Tory cooperation in Scotland." Denzil_DC Jun 2017 #30
OK, I withdraw the word "apparent"...I use that word to mean "essentially proved" Ken Burch Jun 2017 #32
Well, if he stopped telling blatant lies about the SNP's record in government when he comes up here Denzil_DC Jun 2017 #33
You are assuming that the two are separable LeftishBrit Jun 2017 #21
'All it can lead to is lost seats...' LeftishBrit Jun 2017 #22
While I do not defend the EU's treatment of Greece, it was not mainly an ideological assault LeftishBrit Jun 2017 #23
You seem not to have noticed that Denmark now has a right-wing, anti-immigrant government Ken Burch Jun 2017 #26
So the EU's responsible for the choices of the Danish electorate? Denzil_DC Jun 2017 #31
'The EU didn't exist when Labour created the post-war social welfare state' LeftishBrit Jun 2017 #24
Good article! LeftishBrit Jun 2017 #20
Latest Discussions»Region Forums»United Kingdom»Reassessing Corbynism: su...»Reply #28