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gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
18. just many things
Tue Jun 24, 2014, 07:02 PM
Jun 2014
I wouldn't know. Are pot smokers insisting on "open carry"--i.e. public consumption with the public forced to watch--in churches, hospitals, schools, Target stores. etc.? That's news to me.
Actually, I'm saying it should be up to the church, hospital, and Target store, not the State. When it comes to schools, it depends on who owns the schools. I actually don't have an opinion either way.

It's a rather bizarre analogy, though, in that any lethality connected to marijuana (drive by SHOOTINGS, etc.) has to do with the substance being illegal, and thus inflated in value and open to exploitation by the underworld. As opposed to guns, which in and of themselves directly cause tens of thousands of deaths a year (including drug and gang related deaths). Along those lines, if you want a strained (or not so strained) analogy, every American who relies on cheap petroleum for income or entertainment is saying, "Your dead environment doesn't trump my riding mower/jet-ski/4 x 4." It seems none of us are guiltless.
Most of which happen where legal gun ownership is low to non existent, like Oakland and Chicago. I can picture some, like the fans of the PATRIOT Act that "your BoR doesn't trump my right to feel safe." Look at Japan, where there is no right to council while questioning, often brutal, no right to a fair trial, force confessions, including torture, are admissible in court. No exclusionary rule, so there is no consequence of not getting a warrant.

As for comparing countries, didn't you start out by blaming the high incidence of gun deaths in the US, as opposed to Canada, on our "social problems?" So how it is this caveat doesn't work for countries with incredibly high rates of grinding poverty, dysfunctional law enforcement, corrupt criminal justice systems, etc.? It seems like you're saying, if a country is developed, has stricter gun controls, and a lower gun death and injury rate, it's not the gun controls at work, but the "lack" of "social problems." But if a country that has less guns, but enormous social problems, has a high incidence of violence, the fault isn't those self-same "social problems"--it's the lack of guns. Funny how that works
say what? 2/3 of our gun deaths are suicides, so that's kind of obvious. I said our higher murder rates, regardless of means, was because of various social problems. Actually it does, if you look at places like Mexico, Jamaica, Brazil, Russia, Bermuda, anywhere in Central America, they all have gun laws closer to Chicago and DC than Canada or Wyoming, yet they have higher murder rates than we do. The fact that less than 20 percent of Mexico's murders are gun related is of no consequence.

And is the violent crime rate dropping in other developed countries as well, countries that don't fetishize firearms? I honestly don't know, but it would be worth checking. What's the violent crime rate doing in Japan--rising, or falling? How about France, Holland, Australia?
"Developed" is actually a meaningless term. It is falling here, and has been for 20 years. It has been steady there. In terms of wealth inequality and the GINI index, we are closer to Mexico's "development" than any of those places. Australia gun laws always varied by each state and AFAIK, never had laws similar to most of the US. Europe actually had same or lower murder rates before they passed any gun control at all. Japan never had liberal gun laws.

The point seems to be that the US has a far higher rate of gun deaths than any other developed nation in the world. The causes are no doubt varied and complex, but the fact that our society is awash in guns, so much so that most anyone can get one or more, legally or not, must also be a factor here.
Because most of them are suicides. Just like Switzerland has "more gun deaths" than anywhere else in Europe, but they have a high suicide rate. If you remove the guns, they will simply become rope deaths. That isn't progress.

But I know you don't believe that. Ah well, someday the tide will turn. Just as young people seem less bigoted about gay rights and marriage equality, from what I've seen they're also less besotted with firearms. Time will tell.
I don't know what gays and guns have to do with each other, but most kids I know lean libertarian or classical liberal. They support gay rights, but also like their guns too.

My point was that the average bong owner is responsible for more gun violence than 99.9999 percent of all gun owners. Same with beer drinkers in the 1920s.
Yawn. NYC_SKP Jun 2014 #1
So you're saying Canada, for instance, thucythucy Jun 2014 #2
has nothing to do with number of guns per capita gejohnston Jun 2014 #5
"Isn't that the attitude of your average bong owner?" thucythucy Jun 2014 #14
just many things gejohnston Jun 2014 #18
Treating non-gun murders as less important is callous and unfeeling friendly_iconoclast Jun 2014 #7
Judging them by their actions ... beevul Jun 2014 #12
Straw man, much? thucythucy Jun 2014 #15
I'm sure *some* do care- but most downplay non-gun deaths friendly_iconoclast Jun 2014 #21
Your points are well taken, however in this particular instance.... NYC_SKP Jun 2014 #17
Honduras has a murder rate 22 times that of America? I would seriously want to take my children Fred Sanders Jun 2014 #3
So a map sarisataka Jun 2014 #4
Meh, just another repeat of the "guns kill you deader" meme... friendly_iconoclast Jun 2014 #8
One third of all murders take place in Central and South America hack89 Jun 2014 #6
Because... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2014 #9
Perhaps only the bad guys have guns? Hangingon Jun 2014 #10
How is that possible? You really have to ask? thucythucy Jun 2014 #16
In America we have cut our murder and manslaughter rate in half over the past 20 years hack89 Jun 2014 #19
We are not supposed to notice that poverty and corruption correlate... friendly_iconoclast Jun 2014 #22
We have a horrible murder rate compared to countries like us. No one can deny it. n-t Logical Jun 2014 #23
Yet the point of the OP is that high gun ownership rates cause high murder rates hack89 Jun 2014 #24
I am fine with guns. But I have no doubt that if there were no guns the USA murder rate would...... Logical Jun 2014 #25
Extreme gun violence in America is very geographically localized hack89 Jun 2014 #26
caused by guns gejohnston Jun 2014 #27
Guns are designed to kill things. Stop the silly comparisons. I will take my chance..... Logical Jun 2014 #28
Not at all a silly comparison gejohnston Jun 2014 #29
Guns make it easy to kill people. LOL, why do cops/military carry guns? Get it yet? n-t Logical Jun 2014 #30
it also equalizes gejohnston Jun 2014 #31
You really think if there were NO guns that they would all be replaced with other weapons? n-t Logical Jun 2014 #32
Do you have a valid argument gejohnston Jun 2014 #33
You are being too logical, Logical Starboard Tack Jun 2014 #36
logic implies the use of gejohnston Jun 2014 #37
All of what evidence? Starboard Tack Jun 2014 #41
Europe was certainly more violent gejohnston Jun 2014 #42
And this had what exactly to do with firearms? Starboard Tack Jun 2014 #55
I didn't say it did gejohnston Jun 2014 #57
Your problems are many. Starboard Tack Jun 2014 #58
"Your problems are many." Jenoch Jun 2014 #59
No Jenoch. It means your problems are many Starboard Tack Jun 2014 #61
Thank you. Jenoch Jun 2014 #63
I'm sure the rest of the world shares your xenophobic view Starboard Tack Jun 2014 #65
You really have no clue. Jenoch Jun 2014 #67
Right, just that my opinion is worthless. Starboard Tack Jul 2014 #68
If you have no stake in the game, why should it matter what you think about the game? Jenoch Jul 2014 #69
Do you think having family there gives me a "stake in the game"? Starboard Tack Jul 2014 #70
One problem with several causes gejohnston Jun 2014 #60
I give up GE Starboard Tack Jun 2014 #62
Evidence. Straw Man Jun 2014 #54
Faulty causality. Starboard Tack Jun 2014 #56
I never mentioned causes. Straw Man Jun 2014 #66
YOU "have no doubt" that the U.S. murder rate would drop? pablo_marmol Jun 2014 #35
LOL, so under your logic we should give guns to robbers to reduce injury's? Classic! n-t Logical Jun 2014 #38
There you go......with another childish strawman. It's your only ammo. pablo_marmol Jun 2014 #39
No, based on what you said would that not prevent injury's??? You said it Einstein, not me....... Logical Jun 2014 #40
"Why do people carry guns for defense if they are not more lethal?" pablo_marmol Jun 2014 #43
You still have not explained why we don't arm robbers with guns to prevent injury's! Please.... Logical Jun 2014 #44
Because I don't need to back up a theory I never put forward, Einstein! pablo_marmol Jun 2014 #45
So you have no proof of this claim except something you read who knows where? LOL..... Logical Jun 2014 #46
"I get it. You got nothing." pablo_marmol Jun 2014 #47
LOL, you said it was a book! So you didn't even look before? Just BSing me? n-t Logical Jun 2014 #48
Unbelievable! pablo_marmol Jun 2014 #49
I understand your low post count. Asssume you were kicked off before. n-t Logical Jun 2014 #50
Again -- your desperation is showing. pablo_marmol Jun 2014 #51
Ahhh......Ok Einstein! LOL! Sorry if feeling hurt! n-t Logical Jun 2014 #52
And sorry I destroyed all of your lame "arguments". pablo_marmol Jun 2014 #64
Again... krispos42 Jun 2014 #11
Your subject line doesn't match the map. NYC_SKP Jun 2014 #13
*snicker* krispos42 Jun 2014 #34
I sure hope to add two firearms to my collection before the year is out. ileus Jun 2014 #20
just added one Duckhunter935 Jun 2014 #53
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