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Gun Control & RKBA

In reply to the discussion: But guns are special [View all]

benEzra

(12,148 posts)
109. I thought we were discussing centerfires, but since you mention it...
Wed May 27, 2015, 07:44 PM
May 2015
"Gun owners don't use 22 rimfires for home defense? "

I thought it was a given that we are discussing centerfires, but rimfires are a good topic to bring up. And yes, 40gr and 55gr .223 JHP penetrate less than or equal to typical .22LR in both drywall and gelatin.

The reason is that .22LR are going way too slowly, and spinning way too slowly, to disintegrate on impact with a soft barrier, whereas lightweight .223 JHP traveling nearly 3000 ft/sec and spinning at 240,000+ rpm tends to disintegrate in gelatin or after getting whacked by a couple sheets of drywall. As a result, .22LR gelatin penetration is typically 9" to 18" in gelatin depending on load, whereas 40gr .223 JHP may penetrate 7" or less, and a 55gr .223 JHP typically penetrates 10" to 12".

There are plenty of good reasons to prefer a centerfire over a rimfire (reliability being #1, and effectiveness #2), but a rimfire is nothing to sneeze at, especially in terms of penetration.

"The .223 has about 10 times more kinetic energy than a 22 short or long (by plurality used most to commit suicide). Not possible the .223 is less hazard. "

Your error is in assuming that kinetic energy correlates with drywall and gelatin penetration. It does not; in fact, all else being equal, it tends to be inversely correlated once you reach the fragmentation threshold. What matters more is fragmentation, and lightweight .223 readily fragments whereas .22LR does not.

For example, here's three gel tests of a 50gr .223, one out of an 11.5" barrel, one a 14.5", and one a 19.5". The longer the barrel and the higher the kinetic energy, the less the round penetrated.



For an even clearer example, compare a 40gr at 1250 ft/sec (.22LR) to a 40gr at 2750 ft/sec (.22 Hornet). More-than-double the velocity and quintuple the energy, and penetration goes down, but temporary cavity *diameter* goes up.





Double the energy *again* (to twice that of a .223, by shooting a 55gr load out of a .30-06 deer rifle), and you still get less penetration than a 40gr .22LR...but horrific "tissue" damage:



FWIW, I spent a couple hours looking, and the only .22LR load I found that penetrates less than a 40gr .223 JHP are some prefragmented .22LR made for squirrel hunting (Quik-Shok, and CCI Segmented HP), and those would likely penetrate drywall like any other .22LR HP. Typical .22LR hollowpoints will penetrate as much as or slightly more than 55gr .223 JHP.

Now, in terms of damage to the target, there is no question; .223 and .357 (and buckshot, and .30-06...) create a *wider* wound than .22LR, by a large margin, and .223 *FMJ* will penetrate more than most .22LR. But comparing .22LR defensive HP (CCI Velocitor is widely regarded as the best) to good .223 defensive JHP, penetration is comparable across the board.

"An ar15 - 0.223 fmj carries 3 times more kinetic energy at close range than a 357 magnum, 4 times more than a 9mm. You are contending the .223 is somehow 'less hazard' to bystanders & neighbors, than those?"

.223 JHP penetrates less than 9mm and .357 JHP. .223 FMJ penetrates less than 9mm and .357 FMJ. Comparing apples to apples, then yes, .223 is a safer choice than either, which is a primary reason why law enforcement SWAT teams have replaced 9mm submachineguns with non-automatic .223 carbines.

"Dare: I will stand behind a drywall & paneling & be shot at by a 22 rimfire, you stand behind it & get shot at by an ar15. "

If you were standing behind the third "wall" in this test, which would you rather be shot at with? The .223 loads that didn't penetrate the third wall, or the 9mm/.380/00 buckshot loads that did?

.223 with appropriate load choice is less likely to overpenetrate than any other effective load. The few loads that manage to penetrate less than good .223 JHP are those specialized for shooting squirrels and birds, and none of those are particularly effective at incapacitation even if they ultimately prove lethal.
But guns are special [View all] discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2015 OP
Probably because you are talking out your posterior... Human101948 Apr 2015 #1
And comparing the US with the UK... discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2015 #2
So you are drawing what conclusion? Human101948 Apr 2015 #3
The US has more murders than the UK discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2015 #6
Remove guns from the equation and you get... Human101948 Apr 2015 #15
By all means feel free to digress discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2015 #18
Huh? pablo_marmol Apr 2015 #44
In more complete, correct and concise wording... discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2015 #48
There may be more guns but fewer owners... Human101948 Apr 2015 #4
Maybe or maybe not; IMHO not really relevant discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2015 #7
Like "I smell bullshit?" Human101948 Apr 2015 #13
No like... discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2015 #14
A hammer is not a wrench... Human101948 Apr 2015 #21
Please continue, this is looking productive n/t discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2015 #22
I believe future surveys will detect a significant increase in Eleanors38 Apr 2015 #8
Whoopee! Human101948 Apr 2015 #12
it's possible that for now, folks have as many guns as they want... Eleanors38 Apr 2015 #23
rifles sales are dropping gejohnston Apr 2015 #26
Seems industry wide... Human101948 Apr 2015 #35
market saturation gejohnston Apr 2015 #37
There may be more guns but fewer owners... GGJohn Apr 2015 #32
Likewise. Lizzie Poppet May 2015 #92
No sir. beevul Apr 2015 #50
Those polls are far from trustworthy. Lizzie Poppet May 2015 #91
Several years ago I asked a number of gun owners at the range this question. ... spin May 2015 #94
guns kill way less than 30k...somewhere in the 0-none range. ileus Apr 2015 #5
Your post ignores how owning a gun corrupts the mind of the owner and makes him homicidal n/t discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2015 #9
It's the Pat Robertson principle Shamash Apr 2015 #10
~~~ discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2015 #11
Not having a gun certainly lessens the chance that you will shoot someone... Human101948 Apr 2015 #16
Thank you discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2015 #17
Or have one if you need one. N/T beevul Apr 2015 #51
Pat's waiting out that asteroid heading for Orlando. Eleanors38 Apr 2015 #24
But what about Disney? discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2015 #69
I think that's why Pat wanted it to hit there. Some "homosexual" event at Rat World. Eleanors38 Apr 2015 #77
Ziiiing! Puha Ekapi Apr 2015 #40
P.S.--I am a gun owner... Human101948 Apr 2015 #19
Cool by me discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2015 #20
Don't think I've seen/heard anything from the NRA in months. Droll. Eleanors38 Apr 2015 #25
They were at it again today... Human101948 Apr 2015 #36
Some extreme anti-gunners openly advocate exploiting mass shootings for their ends. Eleanors38 Apr 2015 #46
Yes but they don't have the money and political clout that the NRA does... Human101948 Apr 2015 #49
The foremost advocate of gun control is worth in excess of $35 billion dollars friendly_iconoclast Apr 2015 #52
Absolutely... Human101948 Apr 2015 #53
I applaud your principled stand, but you will find yourself a very lonely person... friendly_iconoclast Apr 2015 #54
I can support that because there is something bigger at stake... Human101948 Apr 2015 #58
So what. All the money he spends to try to get me to vote for unreasonable gun control ... spin May 2015 #95
Oh-oh! NRA gets caught with pants down! Human101948 Apr 2015 #64
Another dead horse discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2015 #66
not dead at all, my NRA friend... Human101948 Apr 2015 #67
Okay we'll wait to hear your findings discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2015 #68
so why do you feel compelled to criticize a post bout the NRA? Human101948 Apr 2015 #70
Cupidity, like stupidity, deserves it's own reward DonP Apr 2015 #71
I don't/didn't discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2015 #72
If you are intent on being helpful and informative... Human101948 Apr 2015 #73
Excuse my pejorativity, I found little correlation between... discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2015 #74
"And of course as we all know most firearms sold today are designed to save lives." Starboard Tack Apr 2015 #29
You say potatoe...I say potato. ileus Apr 2015 #31
What you use them for is irrelevant Starboard Tack Apr 2015 #33
my airgun is only for paper targets gejohnston Apr 2015 #34
It would be good if he meant that, but I very much doubt it. Starboard Tack Apr 2015 #38
my impression is totally different gejohnston Apr 2015 #39
I just traded a ninja range toy for a CZ75 a few weeks ago. ileus Apr 2015 #43
power over ethernet? ileus Apr 2015 #42
Not to be smart-assed, but is Ileus a Poe or a "poet?" Poe was a poet, of course. Eleanors38 Apr 2015 #47
Possibly both, possibly neither Starboard Tack Apr 2015 #55
His stuff is too sideways to be that offensive. I, on the other hand, can stir up a sloth! Eleanors38 Apr 2015 #57
LOL Starboard Tack Apr 2015 #60
I match his Hillary one-liner with mine for Bernie. Eleanors38 Apr 2015 #61
I hope Bernie runs and think he will. Starboard Tack Apr 2015 #62
My use for them is the only one that matters. ileus Apr 2015 #41
Or not... Starboard Tack Apr 2015 #56
Gee only 30,000 a year isn't that special nothing to do about it upaloopa Apr 2015 #27
Oh thanks discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2015 #28
My firearms are special.... because they're mine. ileus Apr 2015 #30
And the guns which gun control advocates claim are most "designed only for killing" benEzra Apr 2015 #45
what good are they? jimmy the one Apr 2015 #59
What good are they? Well, let's see... benEzra Apr 2015 #75
I hear heroin is fun & helpful, too jimmy the one May 2015 #85
Here's the thing, James. blueridge3210 May 2015 #86
Good point. benEzra May 2015 #87
Remember, we *are* dealing with an authoritarian mindset friendly_iconoclast May 2015 #89
Well, I might have to agree on the comics and video games; blueridge3210 May 2015 #90
It'd be cabernet, not heroin. benEzra May 2015 #88
the wall challenge, 22rf vs .223 fmj jimmy the one May 2015 #96
"Upper class white man's toy" blueridge3210 May 2015 #97
I for one... discntnt_irny_srcsm May 2015 #98
Um, yeah. blueridge3210 May 2015 #99
Looked like a nice town discntnt_irny_srcsm May 2015 #100
I like my smart car Duckhunter935 May 2015 #106
I thought we were discussing centerfires, but since you mention it... benEzra May 2015 #109
balked on the wall challenge jimmy the one May 2015 #110
Ummm, no. benEzra May 2015 #111
Here's the thing, James. blueridge3210 Apr 2015 #76
If you honestly believe the misinformation about "assault weapons" being special ManiacJoe Apr 2015 #78
Yup. This gun is identical to an AR-15 in every functional way... benEzra May 2015 #79
Except the most important one. Straw Man May 2015 #80
Yup. And the factory stock is brown walnut, not black nylon. benEzra May 2015 #81
So to be exempt from said 2003 version of the ban... discntnt_irny_srcsm May 2015 #82
Presumably a name change would do it... benEzra May 2015 #83
I love people that know nothing about firearms making laws and writing bans DonP May 2015 #84
Let's stop focusing on assault rifles Matrosov May 2015 #102
It's a pretty transparent bit of sophistry, really petronius Apr 2015 #63
Well everyone who studies martial arts... discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2015 #65
The Controllers are so filled with hate they don't realize how they expose their hand. pablo_marmol May 2015 #93
They still kill Matrosov May 2015 #101
A complete ban would, however. gejohnston May 2015 #103
Run that by me again Shamash May 2015 #104
You lot are so cute when you attribute your own positions to others. beevul May 2015 #105
"We let tens of thousand die each year so a few good guys with guns can shoot a criminal....." pablo_marmol May 2015 #107
"So much failure in this post!" Would that other controllers had such economy of style... friendly_iconoclast May 2015 #108
Oh my dog! pablo_marmol May 2015 #112
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