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Gun Control & RKBA
In reply to the discussion: But guns are special [View all]benEzra
(12,148 posts)109. I thought we were discussing centerfires, but since you mention it...
"Gun owners don't use 22 rimfires for home defense? "
I thought it was a given that we are discussing centerfires, but rimfires are a good topic to bring up. And yes, 40gr and 55gr .223 JHP penetrate less than or equal to typical .22LR in both drywall and gelatin.
The reason is that .22LR are going way too slowly, and spinning way too slowly, to disintegrate on impact with a soft barrier, whereas lightweight .223 JHP traveling nearly 3000 ft/sec and spinning at 240,000+ rpm tends to disintegrate in gelatin or after getting whacked by a couple sheets of drywall. As a result, .22LR gelatin penetration is typically 9" to 18" in gelatin depending on load, whereas 40gr .223 JHP may penetrate 7" or less, and a 55gr .223 JHP typically penetrates 10" to 12".
There are plenty of good reasons to prefer a centerfire over a rimfire (reliability being #1, and effectiveness #2), but a rimfire is nothing to sneeze at, especially in terms of penetration.
"The .223 has about 10 times more kinetic energy than a 22 short or long (by plurality used most to commit suicide). Not possible the .223 is less hazard. "
Your error is in assuming that kinetic energy correlates with drywall and gelatin penetration. It does not; in fact, all else being equal, it tends to be inversely correlated once you reach the fragmentation threshold. What matters more is fragmentation, and lightweight .223 readily fragments whereas .22LR does not.
For example, here's three gel tests of a 50gr .223, one out of an 11.5" barrel, one a 14.5", and one a 19.5". The longer the barrel and the higher the kinetic energy, the less the round penetrated.
For an even clearer example, compare a 40gr at 1250 ft/sec (.22LR) to a 40gr at 2750 ft/sec (.22 Hornet). More-than-double the velocity and quintuple the energy, and penetration goes down, but temporary cavity *diameter* goes up.
Double the energy *again* (to twice that of a .223, by shooting a 55gr load out of a .30-06 deer rifle), and you still get less penetration than a 40gr .22LR...but horrific "tissue" damage:
FWIW, I spent a couple hours looking, and the only .22LR load I found that penetrates less than a 40gr .223 JHP are some prefragmented .22LR made for squirrel hunting (Quik-Shok, and CCI Segmented HP), and those would likely penetrate drywall like any other .22LR HP. Typical .22LR hollowpoints will penetrate as much as or slightly more than 55gr .223 JHP.
Now, in terms of damage to the target, there is no question; .223 and .357 (and buckshot, and .30-06...) create a *wider* wound than .22LR, by a large margin, and .223 *FMJ* will penetrate more than most .22LR. But comparing .22LR defensive HP (CCI Velocitor is widely regarded as the best) to good .223 defensive JHP, penetration is comparable across the board.
"An ar15 - 0.223 fmj carries 3 times more kinetic energy at close range than a 357 magnum, 4 times more than a 9mm. You are contending the .223 is somehow 'less hazard' to bystanders & neighbors, than those?"
.223 JHP penetrates less than 9mm and .357 JHP. .223 FMJ penetrates less than 9mm and .357 FMJ. Comparing apples to apples, then yes, .223 is a safer choice than either, which is a primary reason why law enforcement SWAT teams have replaced 9mm submachineguns with non-automatic .223 carbines.
"Dare: I will stand behind a drywall & paneling & be shot at by a 22 rimfire, you stand behind it & get shot at by an ar15. "
If you were standing behind the third "wall" in this test, which would you rather be shot at with? The .223 loads that didn't penetrate the third wall, or the 9mm/.380/00 buckshot loads that did?
.223 with appropriate load choice is less likely to overpenetrate than any other effective load. The few loads that manage to penetrate less than good .223 JHP are those specialized for shooting squirrels and birds, and none of those are particularly effective at incapacitation even if they ultimately prove lethal.
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Your post ignores how owning a gun corrupts the mind of the owner and makes him homicidal n/t
discntnt_irny_srcsm
Apr 2015
#9
Not having a gun certainly lessens the chance that you will shoot someone...
Human101948
Apr 2015
#16
I think that's why Pat wanted it to hit there. Some "homosexual" event at Rat World.
Eleanors38
Apr 2015
#77
Some extreme anti-gunners openly advocate exploiting mass shootings for their ends.
Eleanors38
Apr 2015
#46
The foremost advocate of gun control is worth in excess of $35 billion dollars
friendly_iconoclast
Apr 2015
#52
I applaud your principled stand, but you will find yourself a very lonely person...
friendly_iconoclast
Apr 2015
#54
So what. All the money he spends to try to get me to vote for unreasonable gun control ...
spin
May 2015
#95
"And of course as we all know most firearms sold today are designed to save lives."
Starboard Tack
Apr 2015
#29
Not to be smart-assed, but is Ileus a Poe or a "poet?" Poe was a poet, of course.
Eleanors38
Apr 2015
#47
His stuff is too sideways to be that offensive. I, on the other hand, can stir up a sloth!
Eleanors38
Apr 2015
#57
And the guns which gun control advocates claim are most "designed only for killing"
benEzra
Apr 2015
#45
If you honestly believe the misinformation about "assault weapons" being special
ManiacJoe
Apr 2015
#78
The Controllers are so filled with hate they don't realize how they expose their hand.
pablo_marmol
May 2015
#93
"We let tens of thousand die each year so a few good guys with guns can shoot a criminal....."
pablo_marmol
May 2015
#107
"So much failure in this post!" Would that other controllers had such economy of style...
friendly_iconoclast
May 2015
#108