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In the discussion thread: Cruz’s Gun Control Deception [View all]

Response to beevul (Reply #69)

Wed Apr 27, 2016, 12:34 PM

72. Texas Hold'em Poker!


Smoke'em if you got em boys, its time for some poker!!

As I have said, I have plenty of patience to handle most forms of stubbornness.
I usually don't go away too easily.

Let's begin!

1. Name calling
If you insist on calling me an anti-gunner, then so be it.
Perception is in the eye of the beholder.
Your label must be interpreted by me, as something I care about or believe.
Which is neither for me.
So label away beevul! I'm good with it and may add a few descriptors to my own evaluation.

2. Right to bear arms and stay out of the gun control box.
OK - I can appreciate this hard point.
No banning semi-automatics for one.
Hopefully we may be able to agree upon some subtle changes to the current process then.
Filters for extreme cases of mental instability? Dementia and the like?

3. Gun ownership is a right and not a privilege.
I totally get this.
The reason I try to propose filters is to get dialogue going.
Most of you, in this forum, know quite a bit about the gun control positions, laws and insights.
What is a sane subtle way to add a filter(or something), without infringing on the 2nd amendment, that would reduce firearm deaths?
This is the toughest question to date and now my focus.

4. Anti-Gun Media Manual?
Very interesting to see this on a lobbying company site.
Sorry to say the shoe doesn't fit but I may be more sensitive to preserving other people's lives than you are, but I am not following any guide, if that is what you are proposing.
There is no hidden agenda here. Just passion to improve the quality of our short lives.

I like how the post ends, pondering if the NRA has the same type of guide.
Probably the exact opposite. Stick with the facts and don't get emotional.
Hence the deep divisions between the sides.

You may or may not have lost someone close to you by gun violence. I chose my words incorrectly.
But your comments appear to indicate a certain level of insensitivity to other firearm deaths.

5. Making shit up?
As I pointed out above, you may or may not believe there is a problem with other people dying from firearms, but in my opinion, if you are a God fearing person, then Jesus may want to have a few words with you about loving thy neighbor.
Ignoring a serious problem is the same as an endorsement, imo.

6. NRA talking points?

Of course the NRA has alot to do with it.
The NRA is the voice box of the gun owners, as I understand it.
If the NRA offered up a subtle change to the background process(or something) and peddled the concept to its members, then I would have to believe that at least 50% of the members would back it (especially if Ted Nugent and Chuck Norris did a quick monologue on it).

And I have stopped the anti-gun posts and am working on reducing the firearm deaths.
This is the ultimate goal that both sides should agree on.

7. Position changed?
Well I can definitely say that my position has changed quite a bit since discussing the topics with this forum.
There is alot of koolaid being fed to the anti gun groups but also on the pro gun side as well.
Most of you have enlightened me to the pro-gun positions and why they are so important both to the individual and the Constitution.
I think I am starting to formulate a different position on how to resolve this issue.
Subtle changes are required to reduce firearm deaths but certain areas are basically non-negotiable.
Increasing the current filters to buy a gun would probably not work very well.
But applying the cuurent process universally (as in gun shows) would be something I think is acceptable.
Reducing accidental firearm deaths could be implemented by gun safes/cabinets.

I believe there is a notion from this forum that would include increased gun safety and reducing accidental deaths.
But the bigger problem, I now realize, is to go back to the anti-gun side and get them to tone down the total ban attacks and get them to see the subtle changes required to move this subject forward.

And I will add that I mistakenly posted my first link that had banning semi-automatic weapons and other guns as well.
That was not my intent.

8. Moving the football:
I get this now too.
Although not all anti gun people are so emphatic about total bans, the lobbying groups funding the anti gunners are very much about total bans.
This is an issue to be addressed from the anti-gun side.
I'll probably spend more time bitching at them to tone it down, than the time I've spent here understanding the root cause for the pro-gun stance.

Anyway, we cannot have consensus if one side is pushing a point, that will never be accepted by the other side.
If one of the main non-starters is bans on semi-automatics, then take it off the table period.
We can find other things to discuss and hopefully agree upon.

9. Firearms aren't the most dangerous product to buy at Walmart?
I hope you were smiling when you wrote that one.
Firearms are primarily designed for killing something somewhere.
Of course you can tell me about the shooting ranges and events, but those are not the firearms I am referring too.
Handguns are very dangerous when paired with people who do not respect the safety factor.
This is where I like to propose mandatory universal training in 12th grade(thanks gejohnston!)

10. Middle ground not achievable?

I doubt it.
There is always a way to get something done, even if its a very small step.
If adding a new gun control law is a non starter, then what about gun safes/cabinets to increase safety?
Mandatory Universal training for all 12th grades to inform the entire public on guns?
There are other points to possibly agree upon to reduce the death rates related to firearms.

To me the word arms is just that .... a word.
The issue at hand is reducing firearm deaths by some means.
I don;t want to debate what is considered an "arm" for war use or for recreational use.

Its also interesting that you compare gun ownership to free speech and voting.
I get the Bill of Rights reference, but not much after that.

11. Background checks at shows:
At some point these people will be regulated, one way or another.
It will either be through taxing the sale or reducing counterfeit fraud.
We probably won't even get to subtly change the way the gun shows are monitored since the government will take care of it through other means other than gun control.
That's my 2 cents.

12. Brady Bill
Thank you for the summary.
So I'm starting to get a better picture of why pro-gunners are totally opposed to federal mandates.
Let the states decide about gun shows, since it is in their jurisdiction.

13. Background question from me:
So no federal power grab but the states could enact such laws and it would be ok?
That's what my take away is.
Or maybe a federal registry with gun owners that are already pre-approved for purchasing guns?
If not, then a NRA registry with approved gun owners?
We can't allow people, that may not have the mental capacity, to own a gun.

14. No ban on any gun?
We may already have that, but the goal here is to stop the rhetoric on the anti gun side to push the total ban philosophy.
We can find other ways to reduce firearm deaths.
I've moved my position!

15. Restrictions to eliminate.
Very interesting to think about.
Trade an old restriction for a new one?
This could be tough to find restrictions that are apples to apples, but this could work.

16. National wide open carry reciprocity?
This could work within neighboring states, but I don't know if you will every get anti-gun states to go along.
Could be tough, but creating universal federal open carry laws would get other people upset, like the state's rights people.
More complications......

NFA fee reduced? - this sounds easy to me. We can easily borrow money from the DOD fund to cover these fees.

Eliminate Gun free zones? - This is a tough one for me to agree on, since I am about choice for the people. If the town wants a gun free zone, then they should vote for it and implement it, if they don;t want it, then don;t create a referendum for it. I am not a big supporter of gun free zones, just a big supporter of choice for the people.
How about gun free zones that have an exception for people who are registered to the national conceal/carry registry? (like the TSA precheck system - already approved by the Govmint to conceal/carry in these zones)
This would infringe on privacy but allow conceal/carry to certain individuals.
(now that I have reread that, I am thinking that it will be quite difficult to just offer something for nothing regarding either side)

Eliminate executive orders to stop imports?
Hmmm, I did not know we did this.
This has to be to protect the gun/ammo manufacturers here in the USA.
Foreign commerce needs to change to make it more competitive here in the US.
This is a free enterprise system, why do we block competitors from selling here?
Sounds like big money doing the blocking.

17. TSA Precheck?
I was trying to propose a way to have an ID that would allow an individual to purchase a gun at any time.
Pre-approved so to speak.
This may be a dumb idea, but I threw it out there anyway.

18. Laws are tough to repeal but easier to amend.
So I'm kinda feeling that if we can agree to loosen the "handcuffs" in certain gun control areas, then we may be able to agree upon additional subtle changes to current laws to improve universal safety and reduce firearm deaths.

Thanks beevul!
Enlightening conversation, at least for me!

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