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friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
20. "You didn't address my point" Said 'point' is merely a repeated claim, made with much handwaving...
Fri May 24, 2019, 03:41 PM
May 2019

... little to no direct evidence, and a definition of 'terrorist' so elastic it would impress the makers of Silly Putty.

Then again, authoritarians of all stripes do love to label people 'terrorists' and 'enablers':


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/feb/01/sacramento-rally-fbi-kkk-domestic-terrorism-california

FBI investigated civil rights group as 'terrorism' threat and viewed KKK as victims

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/sep/20/keystone-pipeline-protest-activism-crackdown-standing-rock

'Treating protest as terrorism': US plans crackdown on Keystone XL activists

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/may/07/professor-flight-delay-terrorism-equation-american-airlines

Professor: flight was delayed because my equations raised terror fears

American Airlines says woman expressed suspicion about University of Pennsylvania economics professor, who was solving a differential equation


http://www.rightwingwatch.org/post/anti-muslim-group-act-for-america-holding-nationwide-marches-on-saturday/

Anti-Muslim Group ACT For America Holding Nationwide Marches On Saturday

...In a video publicizing the marches, ACT founder Brigitte Gabriel tells supporters, “This is your chance to show the fake news media what you think of their open-borders zealotry, to show spineless D.C. politicians what you think of their P.C. pandering, to show President Trump that you stand behind his necessary travel ban from terror-ridden nations.”

Gabriel tells activists that this is their “chance to show lame-stream media and anti-American terrorist enablers like the Southern Poverty Law Center and the ACLU that we will not be silenced”...


https://www.democraticunderground.com/10027947454

ACLU's Most Recent Statement on No Fly No Buy Lists.

https://www.aclu.org/blog/washington-markup/use-error-prone-and-unfair-watchlists-not-way-regulate-guns-america


UPDATE: On June 22nd, the ACLU sent this letter to the Senate opposing Sen. Collins’ (R-Maine) proposed legislation. We had hoped that the Collins Amendment would correct the problems with the earlier Cornyn and Feinstein amendments, but as we describe in the letter, the Collins Amendment would instead cause even more serious problems.

In the wake of the attack on LGBTQ Americans in Orlando, gun control is again at the forefront of the national conversation. It is also the subject of proposed legislation in Congress. We at the ACLU, like many other Americans, are appalled by the Orlando tragedy. We have deep concerns, however, about legislative efforts to regulate the use of guns by relying on our nation’s error-prone and unfair watchlisting system.

That’s why we sent a letter today to the Senate, opposing legislation from Sen. Cornyn (R-Texas), which uses the watchlisting system as a predicate for gun regulation, and also opposing a proposal by Sen. Feinstein (D-Calif.), which does not rely on mere presence on watchlists, but nevertheless raises issues of fundamental fairness.

The letter explained to senators the ACLU’s position on gun control:

We believe that the right to own and use guns is not absolute or free from government regulation since firearms are inherently dangerous instrumentalities and their use, unlike other activities protected by the Bill of Rights, can inflict serious bodily injury or death. Therefore, firearms are subject to reasonable regulation in the interests of public safety, crime prevention, maintaining the peace, environmental protection, and public health. At the same time, regulation of firearms and individual gun ownership or use must be consistent with civil liberties principles, such as due process, equal protection, freedom from unlawful searches, and privacy.

And we explained why we oppose Sen. Cornyn’s legislation, which uses the watchlist system as a starting point for regulating guns. It may sound appealing to regulate firearms by using the government’s blacklisting system for what it calls “known or suspected terrorists,” but we have long experience analyzing the myriad problems with that system, and based on what we know, it needs major overhaul. As we told the senators:

Our nation’s watchlisting system is error-prone and unreliable because it uses vague and overbroad criteria and secret evidence to place individuals on blacklists without a meaningful process to correct government error and clear their names.

That’s why we have argued that if the government chooses to blacklist people, the standards it uses must be appropriately narrow, the information it relies on must be accurate and credible, and its use of watchlists must be consistent with the presumption of innocence and the right to due process. This is not what the government is doing, though. Instead, as we explained to the Senate using the No Fly List as an example:

The government contends that it can place Americans on the No Fly List who have never been charged let alone convicted of a crime, on the basis of prediction that they nevertheless pose a threat (which is undefined) of conduct that the government concedes “may or may not occur.” Criteria like these guarantee a high risk of error and it is imperative that the watchlisting system include due process safeguards—which it does not. In the context of the No Fly List, for example, the government refuses to provide even Americans who know they are on the List with the full reasons for the placement, the basis for those reasons, and a hearing before a neutral decision-maker.

It is unsurprising that a system like this is not just bloated, but applied in an arbitrary and discriminatory manner.

By relying on the broken watchlist system, Sen. Cornyn’s proposal would further entrench it. Sen. Feinstein’s gun control proposal, on the other hand, has moved away from a previous version that expressly relied on watchlisting standards. Her new proposal does not rely on the mere presence of an individual on a watchlist as a basis for denial of a firearm permit. Still, her new proposal uses vague and overbroad criteria and does not contain necessary due process protections. It also includes a new notification requirement that could result in a “watchlist” that is even broader than any that currently exists — so broad that it would include even people long ago cleared of any wrongdoing by law enforcement.







Ghost Guns Are Everywhere in California [View all] discntnt_irny_srcsm May 2019 OP
Nice! Gun fetishists putting our kids at risk. sharedvalues May 2019 #1
Wrong on multiple levels. Straw Man May 2019 #2
Some folks manufacture guns discntnt_irny_srcsm May 2019 #3
This message was self-deleted by its author EX500rider May 2019 #4
Pious fraud is part and parcel of gun control advocacy. That was merely the latest example. friendly_iconoclast May 2019 #5
Wow, that's a long thread! MarvinGardens May 2019 #6
NRA is a terrorist organization sharedvalues May 2019 #7
None of which substantiate your original claim. We've seen this sort of thing before: friendly_iconoclast May 2019 #8
I know I'm old when gejohnston May 2019 #9
nra indirectly condones death by guns jimmy the one May 2019 #10
This message was self-deleted by its author Alea May 2019 #11
If the Parkland asshole gejohnston May 2019 #12
Ah, "indirectly" ... Straw Man May 2019 #14
Some truly believe that mere repetition of a claim is a sign of veracity... friendly_iconoclast May 2019 #17
Would you prefer the term "willingley facilitates"? guillaumeb May 2019 #28
Not at all. Straw Man May 2019 #48
The modern NRA is a front organization for the weapons industry. guillaumeb May 2019 #58
Correction. Straw Man May 2019 #59
We disagree. eom guillaumeb May 2019 #63
Yes, we do. Straw Man May 2019 #64
And we're back discntnt_irny_srcsm May 2019 #65
flapdoodle in the straw jimmy the one May 2019 #70
Let me make it clearer for you. Straw Man May 2019 #73
You didn't address: NRA is a terrorist organization sharedvalues May 2019 #13
Not that I disagree- but mere repetition of a claim is no indicator of truth friendly_iconoclast May 2019 #16
The NRA is a terrorist organization, though. sharedvalues May 2019 #18
"You didn't address my point" Said 'point' is merely a repeated claim, made with much handwaving... friendly_iconoclast May 2019 #20
The NRA gets our kids killed. Therefore it enables terrorism. sharedvalues May 2019 #22
Any solution in mind ? n/t discntnt_irny_srcsm May 2019 #23
Solution to NRA getting kids killed: disband the NRA sharedvalues May 2019 #24
You're aware that the lobbying org is the ILA right? n/t discntnt_irny_srcsm May 2019 #25
You're aware how much gun and ammo CEOs funnel to the NRA right? sharedvalues May 2019 #43
I wasn't aware that CEOs funnel any guns or ammo to the NRA. discntnt_irny_srcsm May 2019 #51
"Disband the NRA" by mindlessly parroting your claims to everyone we know? friendly_iconoclast May 2019 #32
You have to admit without the NRA, the only guns left would be muskets & Colt SAAs discntnt_irny_srcsm May 2019 #33
You seem to misunderstand how politics works. sharedvalues May 2019 #42
Gay marriage was achieved by action, not mindless repetition of slogans... friendly_iconoclast May 2019 #62
Willful misunderstanding. sharedvalues May 2019 #66
Some of us understand empty sloganeering quite well... friendly_iconoclast May 2019 #74
Denial. Straw Man May 2019 #47
I see no advocacy of the killing of school children ... Straw Man May 2019 #15
God the bull shit never ends does it. Bad parenting? Combined with a fucking GUN! wasupaloopa May 2019 #30
Yes -- bad parenting. Straw Man May 2019 #45
less gun ownership rates the reason for less shootings jimmy the one May 2019 #71
Clinton-era declines are a red herring. Straw Man May 2019 #72
red herring in the straw jimmy the one Jun 2019 #90
Feh. Chronic logorrhea in the service of bluster friendly_iconoclast Jun 2019 #91
Relevance. Straw Man Jun 2019 #92
strawker forgets gun control & decline in gun ownership rates jimmy the one Jun 2019 #93
Implication. Straw Man Jun 2019 #94
egg face foot mouth syndrome jimmy the one Jul 2019 #96
It took you a while ... Straw Man Jul 2019 #97
LA Times article was pro gun control jimmy the one Jul 2019 #98
NSS. Straw Man Jul 2019 #99
not speculation jimmy the one Jul 2019 #100
Yes, speculation. Straw Man Jul 2019 #101
What does the NRA do to prevent school shootings? Actually they work toward more wasupaloopa May 2019 #29
What does Bloomberg do? gejohnston May 2019 #40
Expecting the NRA ... Straw Man May 2019 #49
No no no no the tool is made for killing and is used to kill children in school. That you wasupaloopa May 2019 #52
Don't presume ... Straw Man May 2019 #61
........... gejohnston May 2019 #19
Sometimes the best one can hope for... discntnt_irny_srcsm May 2019 #21
Guns make us safer! PoindexterOglethorpe May 2019 #26
The fact that we have the second amendment that has been interpreted wasupaloopa May 2019 #31
re: "...the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness." discntnt_irny_srcsm May 2019 #34
"I care about the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness." MarvinGardens May 2019 #36
Right. When gun advocates say out loud (and they do) that PoindexterOglethorpe May 2019 #38
implicitly to murder me or anyone else, is more important than my right to life gejohnston May 2019 #41
Really? I am affected by non existant gun laws if I PoindexterOglethorpe May 2019 #44
Just some general discussion discntnt_irny_srcsm May 2019 #55
actually, there are thousands of gun laws in the US gejohnston May 2019 #57
BTW, about the lands down under discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2019 #88
Odd ... Straw Man May 2019 #46
Wasn't it Joe the Plumber PoindexterOglethorpe May 2019 #53
Joe the Plumber? Please. Straw Man May 2019 #60
Just a few fine points here discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2019 #95
The 2nd Amendment only applies to MILITIAS. And Scalia got bought by gun companies sharedvalues May 2019 #77
Have a link: discntnt_irny_srcsm May 2019 #82
That's just false. Here's some truth for you. sharedvalues May 2019 #83
Enjoy the flat earth while you can n/t discntnt_irny_srcsm May 2019 #84
I'm sorry you choose to persist in bad-faith arguments sharedvalues May 2019 #85
re: bad-faith discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2019 #86
An obvious (and clumsy) propagandist lecturing others about 'bad faith'? friendly_iconoclast Jun 2019 #89
Guns get our kids killed sharedvalues May 2019 #75
Guns are designed to kill. guillaumeb May 2019 #27
I might accept that sniper rifles are designed to kill but guns in general? Not so much other guns. discntnt_irny_srcsm May 2019 #35
Guns are designed to kill. guillaumeb May 2019 #37
If guns in general aren't designed to kill, then what are they designed for? PoindexterOglethorpe May 2019 #39
This gun ... Straw Man May 2019 #50
I bet if you get in front of a gun designed PoindexterOglethorpe May 2019 #54
Just to make a point: discntnt_irny_srcsm May 2019 #56
Once again, with rare exceptions guns are designed to kill living things. PoindexterOglethorpe May 2019 #67
A difference without a distinction discntnt_irny_srcsm May 2019 #68
Further discntnt_irny_srcsm May 2019 #69
You completely ignore self defense in all your replies Alea May 2019 #78
re: "If someone you love and care about... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2019 #87
Evidence that the NRA is a terrorist organization. sharedvalues May 2019 #76
Authoritarians and moral panic-mongers love the "Won't somebody think of the children?" schtick friendly_iconoclast May 2019 #79
You're not the first demagogue to sanctimoniously proclaim that you're trying to 'save' children... friendly_iconoclast May 2019 #80
Here's a link: discntnt_irny_srcsm May 2019 #81
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