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Gun Control & RKBA

In reply to the discussion: Who gets free speech? [View all]
 

TPaine7

(4,286 posts)
21. Your whole argument is based on a misreading of the Second Amendment.
Wed Oct 3, 2012, 01:43 PM
Oct 2012
COLGATE4 (3,837 posts)
4. Not a question of whether it "reasonably

follows" or not. It's plainly what the 2A text says. And, in legal statuatory interpretation an exclusive purpose governs the entire clause. Expressio unius est exclusio alterius ("the express mention of one thing excludes all others.&quot Otherwise it would read something along the lines of "A well regulated militia being necessary, among other things for the purpose of....". But it doesn't. And since it's the only Amendment which has this prefatory clause, the purpose of the expressly stated prefatory clause governing the sense of the amendment must be respected.


Your argument would be logically consistent and at least plausible if the Second Amendment read:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the people shall henceforth have the right to keep and bear Arms.


That is a right being created by the state to meet its needs (ignoring, for the sake of discussion, the incompatibility of such a thing with the founder's philosophy). In such a case, the well regulated Militia would be the reason--the only reason, applying the rule you cite as you apply it--that the right existed.

Unfortunately for your argument, the Second Amendment actually says something very different:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html


Accepting your rule of interpretation at face value--while respecting what the words actually say--we would interpret thus:

Because and only because a well regulated Militia is necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


This says several things--but not what you apparently believe it says:

1. The right of the people to keep and bear arms exists
2. A well regulated Militia is necessary to the security of a free State
3. Because, and only because a well regulated Militia is necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

The necessity of a militia is not the reason the right exists. The militia (or the need for a militia) does not define the right. The militia is simply the reason the right--whatever the pre-existing right is--shall not be infringed.

Similarly, using your method of interpretation but applying it to the actual English:

The liberty of the press is essential to the security of freedom in a state it ought not, therefore, to be restricted in this commonwealth. Mass. Const. pt. I, art. XVI (1780)


1. Liberty of the press exists
2. That liberty is essential to the security of freedom in a state
3. Because, and only because the liberty of the press is essential to the security of freedom in a state, the liberty of the press ought not... to be restricted in this commonwealth.

The security of freedom in a state was not the reason the liberty of the press existed. The security of freedom in a state did not define the liberty of the press. The security of freedom in a state was simply the reason the liberty of the press--whatever the pre-existing liberty of the press was--should not have been restricted in the commonwealth.

To maintain that the liberty of the press was "conditioned" on it serving "the security of freedom in a state" would be a preposterous reading, or rather misreading, of the Massachusetts constitution.

Similarly, the rule you cite does not actually support the conclusion you reach regarding the Second Amendment. In order to force it to do so, you have to violate the plain meaning of the English language.
Who gets free speech? [View all] needledriver Sep 2012 OP
Are you trying to end discussion of da militia clause in one swift blow? Tsk-tsk.nt Eleanors38 Oct 2012 #1
Not comparable. COLGATE4 Oct 2012 #2
Does it reasonably follow from the structure of 2A that the only purpose of RKBA petronius Oct 2012 #3
Not a question of whether it "reasonably COLGATE4 Oct 2012 #4
The Supreme Court disagrees with you: needledriver Oct 2012 #5
This message was self-deleted by its author AnotherMcIntosh Oct 2012 #26
And yet that has never been the way the Second Amendment has been interpreted (by the Supreme Court) TPaine7 Oct 2012 #6
Interesting, thanks. I'll have to do some more reading... (nt) petronius Oct 2012 #8
The purpose and scope... discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2012 #10
In pari materia is used to try and resolve an COLGATE4 Oct 2012 #18
In pari materia discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2012 #19
Just because opinions differ does not COLGATE4 Oct 2012 #23
I don't answer questions twice. discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2012 #27
Hard to point out ambiguity when there isn't any. COLGATE4 Oct 2012 #30
Near impossible to overcome a prejudice n/t discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2012 #31
In considering your opinion... discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2012 #37
The entire purpose of applying COLGATE4 Oct 2012 #38
Your whole argument is based on a misreading of the Second Amendment. TPaine7 Oct 2012 #21
You can try and run through semantic circles COLGATE4 Oct 2012 #24
You have it exactly backwards. TPaine7 Oct 2012 #32
It's called a Whereas. AtheistCrusader Oct 2012 #11
Well, for starters - COLGATE4 Oct 2012 #12
I didn't say the first amendment. AtheistCrusader Oct 2012 #14
I was referring to the hypothetical language you COLGATE4 Oct 2012 #16
It's a substitution. AtheistCrusader Oct 2012 #34
The prefatory clause is quite similar to the current use of whereas, as you say. TPaine7 Oct 2012 #33
According to... discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2012 #9
Where do you get that from the language of COLGATE4 Oct 2012 #13
The exact language: discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2012 #15
Where do you get the idea that RKBA is COLGATE4 Oct 2012 #17
Your claim... discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2012 #20
You are assuming that such a non-enumerated COLGATE4 Oct 2012 #25
From history... discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2012 #28
British Common Law for starters - the Bill of Rights from 1689 hack89 Oct 2012 #29
Actually it is quite comparable. In fact, a very close analogue exists from that timeframe. TPaine7 Oct 2012 #22
I think it's obvious 4th law of robotics Oct 2012 #7
Well needledriver, I think there is nothing left of the "Militia" arguments made in this thread. TPaine7 Oct 2012 #35
Who gets free speech? Oneka Oct 2012 #36
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