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Gun Control & RKBA

In reply to the discussion: Might Makes Wrong [View all]
 

Atypical Liberal

(5,412 posts)
10. Says who?
Tue Oct 16, 2012, 11:54 AM
Oct 2012
The premise of the rush to buy so many more guns has been the claim of needing personal protection.

Says who? I think it's pretty unmistakeable with the spike of firearm sales starting with the election of President Obama that the fundamental premise for the rush to buy more guns is out of fear of another ban, such as the one that the President campaigned on and that is currently part of the Democratic Party platform.

It's fear of further restriction that is driving purchases.

In terms of actual and intended use, I'm sure most people are like me - they are aware of the potential utility for self-defense that firearms provide, but in actuality they use them for fun.

Underlying that notion is the idea that we all have to be free to shoot someone to protect ourselves, because law enforcement only acts after a crime, and that we should all have the option to escalate to lethal violence rather than use alternatives, if we want to or think we might need to, without accountability for using other, less violent or non-lethal alternatives. Shoot first laws remove the legal premise that has been at the core of Castle Doctrine and Self-defense laws for centuries - the duty to retreat if possible, the requirement to try to avoid lethal violence.

The right demands the right to use violence, including lethal violence, and opposes any measures on any level that obstruct it by requiring non-lethal alternatives as preferable.


I don't think anyone would dispute that non-lethal alternatives are preferable. What is disputed is that non-lethal alternatives should be legally required.

If I am in a place where I have every right to be, and I am a victim of a violent crime, I should not be legally required to run away. Good people should have the right to stand up to violent criminals with deadly force if they see fit, and we should applaud them for it, not denigrate them. No one is expecting everyone to fight back against violent criminals, but those who do should be praised and encouraged. And the law should protect them.

There is nothing wrong with using deadly force to defend yourself from violent criminals.


The reality is that the efforts of law enforcement have resulted in a steady decline in crime over the past several decades. Clearly, investing in law enforcement works, when not gutted by the ill-conceived cost cutting of the right. The statistical evidence is irrefutable that law enforcement prevents crime.

The fact is, the causes of the decades-long decline in violent crime are greatly debated:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304066504576345553135009870.html

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-15/why-is-u-s-violent-crime-down-part-2-commentary-by-jeffrey-goldberg.html

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2012/0109/US-crime-rate-at-lowest-point-in-decades.-Why-America-is-safer-now

There are many reasons cited as causing the decline in crime:

* We have incarcerated a huge swath of the most disenfranchised portion of our society who was, due to their disenfranchisement, more likely to get involved with crime.

* Stiffer sentences keep people in prison longer.

* Our society is aging - older people are less likely to be involved in crime.

* Drug trade territories have stabilized since the violent chaos of the 1990s.

* Decline of the crack epidemic.

* Decline of lead levels in children.

* Legalized abortion.

* Improved police databases to track criminals.

But here is one thing I have considered that I have not seen anywhere else:

It may be getting harder to get away with crimes, so people don't try.

Everyone is familiar with TV shows, fictitious or not, like CSI and others where the police use evidence to nail the bad guy. There is a growing perception (that has harmed prosecutors in courtrooms) by the people that police work can easily and definitively finger the bad guy. 50 years ago you could walk into a bank and have a hold up and get away and go live in another town. Today, that's unlikely. There's probably a dye pack and a GPS tracker in the money bag.

Also, just about everyone these days has a cell phone, usually with a camera in it. Any time something bad happens, we are able to record and report it virtually instantaneously. And what isn't covered by our portable cameras is often as not covered by a surveillance camera somewhere nearby.

In short, crime requires anonymity, and anonymity is going away.

But, as I have said before, all of this is largely immaterial.

The right to keep and bear arms is not related to crime, or even self-defense, even though self-defense is valid reason to keep and bear arms.

The right to keep and bear arms is about keeping military-grade small arms in the hands of the people so that they can function as soldiers in an emergency. This will be true regardless of what the crime rate is.





Might Makes Wrong [View all] SecularMotion Oct 2012 OP
I was wondering how that was going to be spun . . . 4th law of robotics Oct 2012 #1
Look at the patterns Dog Gone at Penigma Oct 2012 #3
You throw around the word stats a lot 4th law of robotics Oct 2012 #5
"crime has not dropped uniformly" Atypical Liberal Oct 2012 #7
You're kinda right glacierbay Oct 2012 #14
Cite your evidence, please. n/t PavePusher Oct 2012 #28
See post 4 4th law of robotics Oct 2012 #41
See post 33. It's even documented. n/t PavePusher Oct 2012 #52
You mean 45? 4th law of robotics Oct 2012 #53
Well yeah, that one too. PavePusher Oct 2012 #55
Do you activly support the Brady Campaign or the VPC? oneshooter Oct 2012 #37
It makes for a good rant, ManiacJoe Oct 2012 #2
NO. Dog Gone at Penigma Oct 2012 #4
So rrneck Oct 2012 #6
Of course she does, but if she told you then everybody would know, and then it won't work! oneshooter Oct 2012 #16
Bleed....maybe die. ileus Oct 2012 #20
Several Dog Gone at Penigma Oct 2012 #22
Hasn't been my experience with CC permit holders. glacierbay Oct 2012 #25
You whole attitude here and on your blog MicaelS Oct 2012 #27
I disagree slightly, I think the mindset is like that of some conservatives re HPV vaccine. friendly_iconoclast Oct 2012 #56
One of your biggest mistakes is confusing "unarmed" with "helpless" and "harmless". PavePusher Oct 2012 #31
"Unarmed" is also distinct from "known to be unarmed" Glaug-Eldare Oct 2012 #35
Correct. glacierbay Oct 2012 #36
You get one chance. rrneck Oct 2012 #38
Not to mention that Glaug-Eldare Oct 2012 #39
Gun control is never about GUNS.................It's about CONTROL. oneshooter Oct 2012 #42
Yep. There's no such thing as a benign bullet. nt rrneck Oct 2012 #43
wake me up after the trials gejohnston Oct 2012 #47
educate yourself on the issue gejohnston Oct 2012 #11
SYG Reasonable_Argument Oct 2012 #13
I made no assumptions. ManiacJoe Oct 2012 #15
About Dog Gone at Penigma DWC Oct 2012 #17
Also glacierbay Oct 2012 #18
I don't know... ileus Oct 2012 #24
I don't know either.... PavePusher Oct 2012 #32
Please note: Zimmerman's attorney is using a standard Eleanors38 Oct 2012 #21
Off topic but how do you feel about SM stealing your stuff? NT Trunk Monkey Oct 2012 #29
Stealing may be a little harsh ManiacJoe Oct 2012 #34
Off topic and out of line, typical of your posts. SecularMotion Oct 2012 #40
Feel free to hit the alert button NT Trunk Monkey Oct 2012 #60
Yes ProgressiveProfessor Oct 2012 #58
It's all they have left... ileus Oct 2012 #23
Hollow points and blanks. Remmah2 Oct 2012 #8
I have the right to use lethal force Reasonable_Argument Oct 2012 #9
Missed it by that much Trunk Monkey Oct 2012 #30
Says who? Atypical Liberal Oct 2012 #10
When you throw around stats and don't even bother to provide any, you lose. rDigital Oct 2012 #12
I'll keep my rights, thanks anyway. ileus Oct 2012 #19
"Shoot first laws"? And you wish to be taken seriously? aikoaiko Oct 2012 #26
Bu-bu-bu-but..... PavePusher Oct 2012 #33
Apparently you weren't Dog Gone at Penigma Oct 2012 #45
So you're comparing all CC Permit holders to this one asshole? glacierbay Oct 2012 #46
Apparently in all that schooling you received 4th law of robotics Oct 2012 #48
...or the difference between anecdotes and statistics, as her posts are deficient in the latter. friendly_iconoclast Oct 2012 #49
Pretty much anything with numbers 4th law of robotics Oct 2012 #50
No, that's not at all what I'm defending and I dare you to cite to such. PavePusher Oct 2012 #54
Awww now... rrneck Oct 2012 #57
I think this one's already had her quota. PavePusher Oct 2012 #59
In her first week ????? DWC Oct 2012 #61
That never even occurred to me NT Trunk Monkey Oct 2012 #62
Not too sure. rrneck Oct 2012 #63
Canadian? KamaAina Oct 2012 #64
Just savor the aroma. n/t DWC Oct 2012 #65
Actually rrneck Oct 2012 #66
Ummm, yeah... that never happens.... PavePusher Oct 2012 #69
See my thoughts on that here: PavePusher Oct 2012 #68
My CC gun doesn't "print". GreenStormCloud Oct 2012 #67
You state ... spin Oct 2012 #44
In many jurisdictions, demonstrably false in the first paragraph. Callisto32 Oct 2012 #51
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