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In reply to the discussion: Should the Catholic Church Acknowledge the Destruction of Classical Pagan Culture? [View all]struggle4progress
(118,236 posts)108. That account contains some curious garblings. It is, of course, quite likely
that the date for celebration Christmas had been chosen (perhaps in the fourth century CE) as the date of the equinox, which would have originally been 25 December under the Julian calendrical reform
On the other hand, the claim that the Roman Saturnalia involved human sacrifice in the early years of the Christian era is almost certainly untrue:
By the Late Republic the Romans came to be as horrified by the practice of human sacrifice as any modern might be. The practice of human sacrifice was prohibited by senatorial decree in 97 BCE under the consulship of P. Licinius Crassus. The Romans afterward proscribed the practice by the different peoples they conquered, regarding the practice as barbaric and distinguishing their own civilization from those outside the empire.
The first instance of this is with Licinius Crassus in Further Spain where he was governor (96-93 BCE).The Romans accused the Carthaginians of sacrificing infants, a question still being debated by historians (1). The Romans made similar accusations in later times against the Druids, Jews and Christians, and unpopular emperors like Egalabalus. Horaces portrayal of Medea and especially of Canidia employed scenes of human sacrifice as a way of denigrating the use of magic and witchcraft. Likewise Pliny the Elder, on discussing the origins of magic among the Persians, uses the practice of human sacrifice to distinguish it as un-Roman (Natural History XXX.1-2, 12-15) ...
We know of three instances, recorded by Livy and Plutarch, where a ritual human sacrifice was performed at Rome. Two pairs of Gauls and Greeks, a man and a woman each, were buried alive in the Forum Boarium. The instances recorded took place in the years 228, 216 and 113 BCE. In each case these sacrifices were made in response to instructions taken from the Sibylline Books. The sacrifices seem to have been made to the Manes and Dii Inferi. Plutarch (Roman Questions 83) noted the Roman attitude that disapproved of other peoples making human sacrifice to the gods, and wondered, "Did they (the Romans) think it impious to sacrifice human beings to the gods, but necessary to sacrifice them to the Manes? We hear of Vestal Virgins being buried alive too, usually on the excuse that they had broken their vows of chastity.. In the year 483 BCE Vestal Oppia was so buried as unchaste, but Livy (2.42) makes clear that this was really a sacrifice made to appease the gods when bad omens appeared. The same seems to be the case in the execution of Vestal Cornelia by Domitian (Pliny the Younger, Epistle 4.11). The burials of the Gauls and Greeks in 216 and 113 followed shortly after the burials of Vestal Virgins. It is thought that these burials were connected in a common ceremony of propitiation to the Manes ...
A very interesting case of human sacrifice occurred in the Regal period that involved the sanctifying of the pomerium. When Servius expanded the city walls, a sacrifice was made of four individuals, buried beneath the old pomerium wall that encircled the Palatine Hill. Those bodies were only recently discovered after Carandini discovered the old Palatine pomerium wall. The four tombs included the usual ritual elements, dating to about 650 BCE. Tomb 1 was an adult male; age 30-40, with his head inclined and arms at his side. Along with him were buried two amphorae, a collana (necklace), one plate and two fibulae. Tomb 2 was a child laid in a sleeping position, along with one small amphora and two fibula. Tomb 3 was a young adult male aged 16-18, laid out like the older male. He was buried with one amphora; a large cup, two little cups, two plates, two pieces of bronze and one ring, all placed on the left side of the tomb. Tomb 4 was a female laid out in a fetal position, and oriented in a different direction from all the others. She was buried along with one amphora. These sacrifices were made because the old wall was being violated in the process of extending the pomerium with the new Servian Wall ...
http://home.scarlet.be/mauk.haemers/collegium_religionis/human_sacrifice.htm
The first instance of this is with Licinius Crassus in Further Spain where he was governor (96-93 BCE).The Romans accused the Carthaginians of sacrificing infants, a question still being debated by historians (1). The Romans made similar accusations in later times against the Druids, Jews and Christians, and unpopular emperors like Egalabalus. Horaces portrayal of Medea and especially of Canidia employed scenes of human sacrifice as a way of denigrating the use of magic and witchcraft. Likewise Pliny the Elder, on discussing the origins of magic among the Persians, uses the practice of human sacrifice to distinguish it as un-Roman (Natural History XXX.1-2, 12-15) ...
We know of three instances, recorded by Livy and Plutarch, where a ritual human sacrifice was performed at Rome. Two pairs of Gauls and Greeks, a man and a woman each, were buried alive in the Forum Boarium. The instances recorded took place in the years 228, 216 and 113 BCE. In each case these sacrifices were made in response to instructions taken from the Sibylline Books. The sacrifices seem to have been made to the Manes and Dii Inferi. Plutarch (Roman Questions 83) noted the Roman attitude that disapproved of other peoples making human sacrifice to the gods, and wondered, "Did they (the Romans) think it impious to sacrifice human beings to the gods, but necessary to sacrifice them to the Manes? We hear of Vestal Virgins being buried alive too, usually on the excuse that they had broken their vows of chastity.. In the year 483 BCE Vestal Oppia was so buried as unchaste, but Livy (2.42) makes clear that this was really a sacrifice made to appease the gods when bad omens appeared. The same seems to be the case in the execution of Vestal Cornelia by Domitian (Pliny the Younger, Epistle 4.11). The burials of the Gauls and Greeks in 216 and 113 followed shortly after the burials of Vestal Virgins. It is thought that these burials were connected in a common ceremony of propitiation to the Manes ...
A very interesting case of human sacrifice occurred in the Regal period that involved the sanctifying of the pomerium. When Servius expanded the city walls, a sacrifice was made of four individuals, buried beneath the old pomerium wall that encircled the Palatine Hill. Those bodies were only recently discovered after Carandini discovered the old Palatine pomerium wall. The four tombs included the usual ritual elements, dating to about 650 BCE. Tomb 1 was an adult male; age 30-40, with his head inclined and arms at his side. Along with him were buried two amphorae, a collana (necklace), one plate and two fibulae. Tomb 2 was a child laid in a sleeping position, along with one small amphora and two fibula. Tomb 3 was a young adult male aged 16-18, laid out like the older male. He was buried with one amphora; a large cup, two little cups, two plates, two pieces of bronze and one ring, all placed on the left side of the tomb. Tomb 4 was a female laid out in a fetal position, and oriented in a different direction from all the others. She was buried along with one amphora. These sacrifices were made because the old wall was being violated in the process of extending the pomerium with the new Servian Wall ...
http://home.scarlet.be/mauk.haemers/collegium_religionis/human_sacrifice.htm
Roman sources say the Romans stopped Celtic human sacrifice practices, and there is actually some archaeological evidence of such practices.
It is extremely unlikely the Christians imported Saturnalian customs anywhere, since one of the early martyrdom stories is that of the Christian soldier, Dasius of Durostorum, reportedly executed in the time of Diocletian for refusing to serve as King of Saturnalia
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Should the Catholic Church Acknowledge the Destruction of Classical Pagan Culture? [View all]
trotsky
Apr 2015
OP
They can start by apologizing for destroying pagan civilizations period.
AtheistCrusader
Apr 2015
#3
There's something to be said in favor of intellectual integrity and careful historical work
struggle4progress
Apr 2015
#4
You're right. The Iberian monarchs funded armed fleets to bring back rare woods for rosaries.
rug
Apr 2015
#9
You actually know more about this issue than my s/o who is part Native American.
beam me up scottie
Apr 2015
#51
Your assumption that whites can only know about Native Americans from Wikipedia
skepticscott
Apr 2015
#62
You know, phil, yor parroting the phrase "a book of atrocity and genocide" hardly makes it so.
rug
Apr 2015
#34
... Praei/j ... means “mild”, “gentle”, “kind”, “forgiving”. It can also suggest passive resistance
struggle4progress
Apr 2015
#104
If you use the plural "we", kindly read the roster so everyone knows who you speak for.
rug
Apr 2015
#68
Burning people alive seems to have been a popular past-time in many cultures
struggle4progress
Apr 2015
#44
I've never heard the Iconoclasts mentioned in the destruction of Classical art before.
Leontius
Apr 2015
#39
Afraid not. Humans have yet to accept, let alone consistently practice, love your neighbor.
rug
Apr 2015
#41
Exactly. You don't have to look far to see nothing will change ntil we realize we are all neighbors.
rug
Apr 2015
#43
Wait, and your God has consistently practiced this? Where is this written?
Humanist_Activist
Apr 2015
#110
Where is your evidence for this? I strongly doubt that Yahweh/Jesus were the only...
Humanist_Activist
Apr 2015
#114
So its, do as I say, not as I do? Why is this god worthy of worship again? n/t
Humanist_Activist
Apr 2015
#118
Well, for one, he's very emotional, for example, jealously, which makes no sense...
Humanist_Activist
Apr 2015
#115
Again, that "Sacred Scripture" isn't so reliable, so having it intertwined with revelation...
Humanist_Activist
Apr 2015
#122
I feel as if we are simply talking past each other, and going around in circles...
Humanist_Activist
Apr 2015
#130
That's not the issue, if we treated the Bible like Beowulf, I wouldn't have an issue...
Humanist_Activist
Apr 2015
#133
Not a consistent message, no, the Bible is a collection of related stories, legends, myths...
Humanist_Activist
Apr 2015
#137
Most of the scholarship I've seen, and yes much of it I sourced(from memory) in my post...
Humanist_Activist
Apr 2015
#140
You are basically justifying confirmation bias, is anyone concerned about what actually...
Humanist_Activist
Apr 2015
#142
I can't help but still be amazed how gullible and willfully ignorant these people are.
Leontius
Apr 2015
#32
And for showing us there's a one-sentence hit-and-run reply for any topic.
Act_of_Reparation
Apr 2015
#33
She couldn't be bothered with research on the subject. Vestals married to Rome, really.
Leontius
Apr 2015
#103
Fascinating how modern-day Christians react with hate and spittle to this history. n/t
trotsky
Apr 2015
#84
The destruction of pagan culture is whinny(sic) petty little bullshit?
beam me up scottie
Apr 2015
#95
I for one am glad Leontius is here to remind us what True Christian behavior is all about. n/t
trotsky
Apr 2015
#102
That account contains some curious garblings. It is, of course, quite likely
struggle4progress
Apr 2015
#108
The notion that there was one definite "Classical Pagan Culture" is somewhat odd
struggle4progress
Apr 2015
#131