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Religion

In reply to the discussion: Free will and consciousness [View all]
 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
28. Demasio apparently thinks we have free will, though he didn't explain in detail how it works,
Wed Sep 21, 2016, 09:58 AM
Sep 2016

which nobody does. He does have some of my opinions concerning the role of feelings in consciousness, but far more authoritatively than me:

page 93 in the pdf in Demasio's book: Descartes Error:
https://bdgrdemocracy.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/descartes-error_antonio-damasio.pdf

Before leaving the subject of human brain lesions, I would like
to propose that there is a particular region in the human brain
where the systems concerned with emotion/feeling, attention, and
working memory interact so intimately that they constitute the
source for the energy of both external action (movement) and internal
action (thought animation, reasoning).
This fountainhead region
is the anterior cingulate cortex, another piece of the limbic system
puzzle.

My idea about this region comes from observing a group of patients
with damage in and around it. Their condition is described
best as suspended animation, mental and external-the extreme
variety of an impairment of reasoning and emotional expression...

Damage to this sector not only produces impairment
in movement, emotion, and attentiveness, but also causes a virtual
suspension of the animation of action and of thought process such
that reason is no longer viable.
The story of one of my patients in
whom there was such damage gives an idea of the impairment.

The stroke suffered by this patient, whom I will call Mrs. T,
produced extensive damage to the dorsal and medial regions of the
frontal lobe in both hemispheres. She suddenly became motionless
and speechless, and she would lie in bed with her eyes open but with
a blank facial expression; I have often used the term "neutral" to
convey the equanimity-or absence-of such an expression.
Her body was no more animated than her face. She might make a
normal movement with arm and hand, to pull her bed covers for
instance, but in general, her limbs were in repose. When asked
about her situation, she usually would remain silent, although after much
coaxing she might say her name, or the names of her husband and
children, or the name of the town where she lived. But she would not
tell you about her medical history, past or present, and she could
not describe the events leading to her admission to the hospital.
There was no way of knowing, then, whether she had no recollection
of those events or whether she had a recollection but was unwilling
or unable to talk about it. She never became upset with my insistent
questioning, never showed a flicker of worry about herself or anything
else. Months later, as she gradually emerged from this state of
mutism and akinesia (lack of movement), and began to answer
questions, she would clarify the mystery of her state of mind. Contrary
to what one might have thought, her mind had not been
imprisoned in the jail of her immobility. Instead it appeared that
there had not been much mind at all, no real thinking or reasoning.
The passivity in her face and body was the appropriate reflection of
her lack of mental animation. At this later date she was certain about
not having felt anguished by the absence of communication. Nothing
had forced her not to speak her mind. Rather, as she recalled,
"I really had nothing to say."


To my eyes Mrs. T had been unemotional. To her experience, all
the while, it appears she had had no feelings. To my eyes she had not
specifically attended to the external stimuli presented to her, nor had
she attended internally to their representation or to the representation
of correlated evocations. I would say her will had been preempted,
and that seems also to have been her reflection.
Free will and consciousness [View all] cpwm17 Sep 2016 OP
How do you explain the fact that our various preferences and inclinations... Nitram Sep 2016 #1
We learn over time, based on how are brains are made and our environment. cpwm17 Sep 2016 #3
It should also be remembered... AlbertCat Sep 2016 #18
Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2016 #2
First of all, the claim that one side has the burden of proof with respect to a phenomenon ... Jim__ Sep 2016 #4
Where did that thought to raise your arm come from? (pretend you actually had that thought) cpwm17 Sep 2016 #6
The origin of the thought is based on both external and internal events. Jim__ Sep 2016 #10
Free will is a particular ability. cpwm17 Sep 2016 #12
I notice that you didn't explain that "subtle process." Jim__ Sep 2016 #14
Yes, with brain imaging scientists can study which areas in the brain are involved cpwm17 Sep 2016 #15
"Johns Hopkins University researchers are the first to glimpse the human brain making a purely ... Jim__ Sep 2016 #20
The haven't supported free will, as I am using that term, and it's frequently used. cpwm17 Sep 2016 #25
They are talking about a purely voluntary decision to act. They are calling that free will. Jim__ Sep 2016 #29
Perhaps a more accurate and clear definition of free will cpwm17 Sep 2016 #31
No. That's neither more accurate nor clearer. Jim__ Sep 2016 #34
Conscious freedom to choose requires consciousness to be the originator of thoughts. cpwm17 Sep 2016 #38
Please cite your source for the claim about the most common definition of free will. Jim__ Sep 2016 #39
The subtle feelings are related to what Antonio Damasio calls background feelings cpwm17 Sep 2016 #16
A neurological basis for free will - a conversation with Antonio Demasio. Jim__ Sep 2016 #21
Demasio apparently thinks we have free will, though he didn't explain in detail how it works, cpwm17 Sep 2016 #28
Here's one Ted Talks speaker's beliefs on free will. cpwm17 Sep 2016 #17
To call his talk speculative would be generous. Jim__ Sep 2016 #22
I'll reword what he and I have written about thoughts popping into our heads. cpwm17 Sep 2016 #24
People seem to have a pretty good idea about how to make thoughts "pop into our heads." Jim__ Sep 2016 #30
The illusion of free will is strong cpwm17 Sep 2016 #32
You're just making "stuff" up. I base that on your statements. Jim__ Sep 2016 #36
I've answered your question. cpwm17 Sep 2016 #37
We've been over this all before. Jim__ Sep 2016 #40
As I wrote before, the vast majority of what happens in the brain is outside of consciousness. cpwm17 Sep 2016 #41
Once again, most of your post is just making stuff up. Jim__ Sep 2016 #42
Consciousness is an emergent property of caffine. stone space Sep 2016 #33
Ha ha! Jim__ Sep 2016 #35
Was post #2 a failed exercise of free will? stone space Sep 2016 #5
I wish I knew. cpwm17 Sep 2016 #9
I've never quite understood just what folks mean by the term "free will". stone space Sep 2016 #7
You would have free will if your thoughts and actions originate from consciousness and if you had cpwm17 Sep 2016 #8
>claims brain is a black box no one knows anything about Lordquinton Sep 2016 #11
All good responses I've been receiving from everyone. cpwm17 Sep 2016 #13
This smells to me like philosophy in the service of reactionary politics: struggle4progress Sep 2016 #19
Actually, the realization that we have no free will can lead to compassion. cpwm17 Sep 2016 #23
Binary thinkers often seem confused to me struggle4progress Sep 2016 #26
That has nothing to do with binary thinking. cpwm17 Sep 2016 #27
I think binary thinking is a problem in these discussions Bradical79 Oct 2016 #43
At any moment in time, we act and think according to our dominant feeling at the moment cpwm17 Oct 2016 #44
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