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Religion

In reply to the discussion: We do not have free will. [View all]

Jim__

(14,075 posts)
64. Yes randomness can be a component of free will.
Thu Aug 8, 2019, 09:17 PM
Aug 2019

I can cite 2 papers that discuss this issue. The first, Towards a scientific concept of free will as a biological trait: spontaneous actions and decision-making in invertebrates, is from December 2010 and documents the use of randomness in the brains of fruit flies as an aid in escaping predators. A very brief excerpt:

Together with Hume, most would probably subscribe to the notion that ‘tis impossible to admit of any medium betwixt chance and an absolute necessity’ [75]. For example, Steven Pinker (1997, p. 54) concurs that ‘A random event does not fit the concept of free will any more than a lawful one does, and could not serve as the long-sought locus of moral responsibility’ [76]. However, to consider chance and lawfulness as the two mutually exclusive sides of our reality is only one way to look at the issue. The unstable nonlinearity, which makes brains exquisitely sensitive to small perturbations, may be the behavioural correlate of amplification mechanisms such as those described for the barrel cortex [74]. This nonlinear signature eliminates the two alternatives, which both would run counter to free will, namely complete (or quantum) randomness and pure, Laplacian determinism. These represent opposite and extreme endpoints in discussions of brain functioning, which hamper the scientific discussion of free will. Instead, much like evolution itself, a scientific concept of free will comes to lie between chance and necessity, with mechanisms incorporating both randomness and lawfulness. The Humean dichotomy of chance and necessity is invalid for complex processes such as evolution or brain functioning. Such phenomena incorporate multiple components that are both lawful and indeterminate. This breakdown of the determinism/indeterminism dichotomy has long been appreciated in evolution and it is surprising to observe the lack of such an appreciation with regard to brain function among some thinkers of today (e.g. [2]). Stochasticity is not a nuisance, or a side effect of our reality. Evolution has shaped our brains to implement ‘stochasticity’ in a controlled way, injecting variability ‘at will’. Without such an implementation, we would not exist.


The second is from July 2019, Neurocognitive free will, and discusses neural processes that appear to be at least partially random and can participate in free will decisions by passing somewhat randomly selected remembered events, one-by-one, to conscious processing to aid in decision making. An excerpt:

Whether or not we describe a system as ‘random’ often depends on whether we see it as arising from deterministic (pseudo-random) or indeterministic sources. Neurocognitive free will offers inroads for each of these sources. There is a finite precision on cognitive abilities, which is a result of a trade-off between computational accuracy and the metabolic cost of information processing (e.g. [52]). This can lead to sensory noise when information from external stimuli is transformed into a neural representation [53,54]. At smaller scales, neural precision is limited by channel noise—the random opening and closing of ion channels—and synaptic noise—derived from probabilistic vesicle release and the random motion of ligand-gated ion channels [55].

The above mentioned compatibilist sources of noise are consistent with a deterministic universe and may be all that cognition has access to when it turns up the noise. Nonetheless, a complete discussion of neurocognitive free will cannot yet discount the possibility that neural systems amplify quantum indeterminism [14,56,57]. Neural systems are commonly characterized as having a sensitive dependence on initial conditions of arbitrarily small size [58,59]. If ‘arbitrarily small’ includes quantum level influences (see [57,60,61]), then two brains wired such that they would forever remain identical in a deterministic universe could eventually diverge in an indeterministic universe.

Perhaps ironically, neurocognitive free will localizes the volumes that have been written comparing compatibilist and libertarian free will to this rather subtle distinction of where the noise comes from. This may not matter for adaptive purposes [62]. Unless my adversary has the omniscience of Laplace's demon—who can perfectly predict all deterministic futures—then the ability to amplify quantum noise is not ultimately necessary to outwit adversaries or explore, but it may nonetheless satisfy architectural constraints on building minds like ours.


I don't believe anyone knows the answer as to whether or not we have free will. But we all expend a tremendous amount of energy everyday making conscious decisions. It's difficult to see how that energy expenditure on an illusion leads to a selective advantage over a purely non-conscious, deterministic process. People also think that randomness can't be an element of free will. The cited papers make a strong case that it can be.
We do not have free will. [View all] keithbvadu2 Aug 2019 OP
Within the context of belief in an all-powerful god... trotsky Aug 2019 #1
The Bible tells us that God has interfered with free will. Mariana Aug 2019 #6
Agreed hurl Aug 2019 #19
Why? People still sometimes make bad decisions with perfect foresight. AtheistCrusader Aug 2019 #33
Depends on what you mean by foresight hurl Aug 2019 #35
Disagree, but you are welcome to your belief. nt in2herbs Aug 2019 #2
Then you are more powerful than God. keithbvadu2 Aug 2019 #9
I can honestly say I'm more powerful than your god. Dr Hobbitstein Aug 2019 #11
See post #1. keithbvadu2 Aug 2019 #12
Cool story. Dr Hobbitstein Aug 2019 #13
Not a problem. keithbvadu2 Aug 2019 #14
A single carbon atom is more powerful than god. AtheistCrusader Aug 2019 #34
In that vein: DetlefK Aug 2019 #3
Not true. Dr Hobbitstein Aug 2019 #4
+100 sinkingfeeling Aug 2019 #5
Yep! See post #1. keithbvadu2 Aug 2019 #10
How do you know that 'rejection of god(s)' is an act of free will, Voltaire2 Aug 2019 #17
Because I made said conscious decision. nt Dr Hobbitstein Aug 2019 #23
Did you sleep on it first? Voltaire2 Aug 2019 #24
Since no one knows what free will is... Girard442 Aug 2019 #7
If it stays, your statement is allowed. keithbvadu2 Aug 2019 #8
You are right. MarvinGardens Aug 2019 #15
Only atheists have free will Cartoonist Aug 2019 #16
except this atheist who thinks 'free will' is an entirely dubious concept in a material universe. Voltaire2 Aug 2019 #18
How can your will be "Free" uriel1972 Aug 2019 #20
Within bounds Cartoonist Aug 2019 #25
Because free doesn't necessarily mean unconstrained qazplm135 Aug 2019 #27
If it is bound, why call it free? uriel1972 Aug 2019 #36
because words can have subtlety qazplm135 Aug 2019 #37
true... uriel1972 Aug 2019 #39
no it doesn't qazplm135 Aug 2019 #42
"Research also shows that we retain veto power over a decision." trotsky Aug 2019 #43
It's literally the same study he is citing: qazplm135 Aug 2019 #44
That's only in the context of actions studied. You are suggesting a much broader interpretation. trotsky Aug 2019 #45
I didn't say qazplm135 Aug 2019 #47
Then people don't have the same free will. trotsky Aug 2019 #53
People usually have different constraints qazplm135 Aug 2019 #55
You're writing a lot of words to try and distract from the fact that you want it both ways. trotsky Aug 2019 #56
Yawn qazplm135 Aug 2019 #57
Actually, it is your fault, as I pointed out. trotsky Aug 2019 #58
First off Cartoonist Aug 2019 #46
I've been wondering if this is a valid position: OriginalGeek Aug 2019 #31
I start from the assumption that we exist Voltaire2 Aug 2019 #32
quantum physics kills that qazplm135 Aug 2019 #38
Quantum physics breaks down at the atomic level... uriel1972 Aug 2019 #40
our decisions qazplm135 Aug 2019 #41
if your claim is that "free will" emerges from quantum (or other) randomness Voltaire2 Aug 2019 #60
Considering his claim was about qazplm135 Aug 2019 #61
No it allows for random events. Voltaire2 Aug 2019 #62
Again... qazplm135 Aug 2019 #63
Yes your mythical free will requires some level of non-determinism. Voltaire2 Aug 2019 #66
See this is why I rarely bother with this qazplm135 Aug 2019 #67
Yes, so where is the evidence for free will? Voltaire2 Aug 2019 #68
So all of these trained experts qazplm135 Aug 2019 #74
Yes randomness can be a component of free will. Jim__ Aug 2019 #64
again this just reduces free will to "non-deterministic' behavior. Voltaire2 Aug 2019 #65
No, it doesn't. It introduces conscious control into the search and deliberation processes. Jim__ Aug 2019 #69
except that when neurologists go looking for this alleged 'conscious control' what they find instead Voltaire2 Aug 2019 #70
From your citation: "The illusion may only apply to a small set of our choices ..." Jim__ Aug 2019 #71
yeah because of the limitations of the investigative tools (fMRI) only simple experiments can be Voltaire2 Aug 2019 #72
The limitations of the investigative tools constitute limitations on what you can learn ... Jim__ Aug 2019 #73
Did you really think this through? uriel1972 Aug 2019 #21
"Within the context of belief in an all-powerful god..." keithbvadu2 Aug 2019 #22
Then we are all puppets qazplm135 Aug 2019 #28
For those who believe in an all-powerful God. keithbvadu2 Aug 2019 #30
I was taught that in Ctholic school. I never believed it. It was made up. When ever something wasupaloopa Aug 2019 #52
Most people don't have free will watoos Aug 2019 #26
Isaiah 45:7 LuvNewcastle Aug 2019 #29
Yes, he seems to have created an awful lot of evil! FiveGoodMen Aug 2019 #78
"We do not have free will." Quite possibly true. Iggo Aug 2019 #48
Not a problem. You don't have to believe in an all-powerful God. keithbvadu2 Aug 2019 #49
... Major Nikon Aug 2019 #50
So you are not responcible for your actions since you did not use your free will to choose to do wasupaloopa Aug 2019 #51
What free will? keithbvadu2 Aug 2019 #54
Maybe it was norepinephrine. Act_of_Reparation Aug 2019 #59
We are a function of decisions we make, decisions we do not make... lonely bird Aug 2019 #75
When's your God going to take responsibility SHRED Aug 2019 #76
Like you're god paleotn Aug 2019 #77
No! I'm not Mitt Romney in his future. keithbvadu2 Aug 2019 #79
Hi keithbvadu2 - thank you for posting this very interesting topic. Pendrench Aug 2019 #80
Thanks. Your article dives deep into the subject. keithbvadu2 Aug 2019 #81
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