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tblue37

(65,336 posts)
127. I tell my college students that although it used to be possible to declare bankruptcy
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 09:35 PM
Feb 2016

on some of the private college loans, that was changed in 2005 when the bankruptcy reform bill passed. Unfortunately, most of them have no idea of those bankruptcy restrictions—and neither do their parents! For most of them I am the first person to tell them about those bankruptcy rules, and also the first who has even brought up the issue of whether it is worth it to incur such heavy, non-dischargeable debt to attend a 4-year college when they have more limited job prospects than earlier generations did when we graduated, especially since so many careers no longer pay as well as they used to, even if one can wrangle a job offer in the first place.

For most of my students I am also the first person to suggest that maybe they should take as many of the general education credits as they can at a community college while living at home to save on living expenses and working to help pay for those credits. Community colleges offer flexible schedules to accommodate the needs of working adults with families, so it is not hard to handle a part time or even a full time job while accumulating needed credits. Best of all, the credits at a community college cost only ⅓
to ½ of what they would cost at a 4-year school. I have discovered that few of my students realize how much cheaper those credits could be, but even worse, many have been actively discouraged by teachers, counselors, and even their families from attending a community college to complete their distribution requirements.

Our whole society pushes them to attend a 4-year college and to do so immediately after graduating, rather than taking a gap year or even a few years to make sure they really know what they want and are mature enough not to crash and burn during their first year in college.

I wrote a long comment about all this in another thread. Forgive me, but I think this issue is so important that I can't resist pasting that comment here. I am sorry that it is so long, but I keep hoping that if I spread the word, more adults will join me in offering more reasonable advice to naive kids and their parents.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6721601

As someone who teaches college, I wish we didn't shove most of our high school grads into college, especially now that they must go deeply into debt from the very start to attend.

About 65% of our high school graduates go right to college, but 30% of freshmen drop out or flunk out without ever seeing their second year! They are thus saddled with thousands of dollars of debt (which they can't discharge through bankruptcy!), with little hope of getting a decent job to pay it off.

Most American college students are ill prepared to handle college-level work. They lack foundational knowledge and skills, and most also lack maturity and do not really value education. They come to college because of ignorance and social pressure.

The ignorance I refer to is their lack of knowledge about what college costs, how much they're accumulating in non-dischargeable debt (most don't even know college loan debt can't be escaped through bankruptcy!), how much more demanding college courses are, how much more rigorous the grading standards are, and how unlikely they are to find a job after college that pays well enough to enable them to pay off the huge debts they will be burdened with.

The social pressure comes from all sides. Their teachers and school counselors assume most of their school's students can and should go to college right after high school. The parents do, too, and recoil with embarrassment if their child resists the pressure and says he doesn't want to go to college, or that he wants to go eventually, but plans to take a gap year, or several gap years, first. Their friends are all excited about their college application process, about which schools they're getting acceptances from, about getting ready and then leaving for college. The kid who isn't going right after high school is left out of this excitement, and he is also subjected to the disapproval and/or pity of his peers, who can't help considering him either a loser or a fool.

If the kid is going right to college but plans to start at a community college, where he can accumulate required credits at ⅓ to ½ to cost of the same credits at a 4-year college, and where he can schedule classes in a way that allows him to work a job to help pay for school, he has marked himself as "lower class." And if he saves money by living with his family while attending college, whether it's a 2-year or a 4-year school, then he's viewed as pathetic.

The kid who postpones college for a semester or a year misses out on a lot of scholarship opportunities, so he feels pressure from that angle, too.

Another aspect of the social pressure is found in the (false) way college life is represented in popular culture. Young people want the experience they've been led to expect from campus life and cannot bear to think of missing out on it.

There are a lot of other ways to train young people for adult careers, but our society blocks many of them while insisting on a 4-year degree as the only route to adult success. Furthermore, most of the options that we do allow are marked as déclassé—even if they offer a more likely route to financial security. I know a LOT of people who have become quite affluent by training and working in a trade rather than by going to college, yet they always act embarrassed and apologetic about their lack of a college degree. Even worse, I know a lot of people with degrees, especially those with advanced degrees, who look down on even very successful people with valuable skills if those people don't have college degrees.

Unfortunately, most of the students who pour into our colleges and universities every year really are not ready for college-level study when they get here, and many never will be. We would be doing them a favor if we didn't push them into 4-year colleges, but only if we stopped requiring a 4-year degree for any sort of entry-level employment or for admission to professional schools in fields for which the distribution requirements comprising the first two years of most college majors are simply irrelevant.

One of the courses I teach, "Introduction to Poetry," fulfills a distribution requirement. I love teaching poetry, and most of my students really enjoy the course and learn to enjoy poetry. But if I ever need a brain surgeon or a lawyer, I don't care whether he knows the difference between iambic pentameter and trochaic hexameter. Nor should the employment certification for architects and engineers require them to incur extra debt to jump through such requirement hoops before being permitted to train and work in those fields.

I truly believe in the value of general knowledge of that sort, and I believe kids should be getting a whole lot more of such knowledge in their K-12 schooling. But we are stupidly (and expensively) using college for remedial education in essential reading, writing, and math skills, as well as for basic knowledge in history, culture, and the physical and social sciences. If our kids were learning foundational knowledge and skills (including time management and personal responsibility) in K-12 classes, employers and professional schools wouldn't need to require a 4-year college degree as a substitute sign that applicants might not be too ignorant, immature, and irresponsible to hire or to admit for professional training.

Then our 4-year colleges could be used for educating those with an interest in and aptitude for a specific kind of academic study, not for unnecessarily expensive remedial education and vocational training.

[font color = "red" font size = "+2"]----------------------------------------------------------------[/font]
[font color = "red" font size = "+2"]*[/font]BTW, none of this even gets into the issue of price gouging, which is what is going on with the fact that tuition increases at about 2½ to rate of inflation and that textbook pricing is a scam. The cost of attending public colleges used to be reasonable, because an educated populace was recognized as a public good, and other countries still recognize that fact.


[font color = "red" font size = "+2"]*[/font]Oh, and also BTW, the interest rate on federally insured loans also used to be much lower, more outright grants used to be available for students who needed financial aid, and the grants that were available, like Pell grants, used to cover a much larger portion of the cost of attending college:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/27/pell-grants-college-costs_n_1835081.html

The federal Pell Grant program was designed to help college students coming from low-income families afford the high cost of going to college without getting buried in debt. But the Pell Grant now covers less than one-third of the cost of attendance at public four-year university, the lowest in its history.

Where the maximum Pell Grant once covered the entire cost of obtaining a two-year degree and 77 percent of the cost at a public university in 1980, it now covers only 62 percent of the cost of a two-year degree and 36 percent towards a public four-year degree.

Even though the Pell Grant has never covered such a small fraction, it's been subject to repeated attempts to cut it and make sure it continues to shrink in the future. At the same time, the cost of college is projected to increase faster than inflation.

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I Will Die With Student Loan Debt [View all] angrychair Feb 2016 OP
Massive K&R..... daleanime Feb 2016 #1
sorry I don't understand your point hill2016 Feb 2016 #2
Sorry, you are not correct angrychair Feb 2016 #3
The research shows that students who work 10 hours a week have higher pnwmom Feb 2016 #87
Nothing wrong with working while going to school SickOfTheOnePct Feb 2016 #191
My kiddos go to college in Germany ask me anything pinebox Feb 2016 #28
I think the point was that Germany has one of the lowest college attendance rates in Europe Recursion Feb 2016 #134
But do you know why that is? pinebox Feb 2016 #166
I do know why that is, yes Recursion Feb 2016 #172
There is a chance I will die trying to escape student loan debt. VulgarPoet Feb 2016 #4
Sucks to be you NobodyHere Feb 2016 #5
Great "I got mine, don't give a crap about you" attitude. liberal_at_heart Feb 2016 #8
The Third Way in action, don'tcha know. VulgarPoet Feb 2016 #9
That is it, in a nutshell. nt Live and Learn Feb 2016 #14
The third way is increasingly looking like the old Repuglican way. reformist2 Feb 2016 #39
It sounds like..... backtomn Feb 2016 #53
Typical republican attitude. TIME TO PANIC Feb 2016 #16
Deleted so not to stoop to that poster's level. nt PonyUp Feb 2016 #19
WOW that was unkind! onecent Feb 2016 #27
So is life NobodyHere Feb 2016 #29
I just love the ignore function. Good bye. liberal_at_heart Feb 2016 #31
Been a rough one, eh? Sorry to hear that! onecent Feb 2016 #32
Thanks to some people. You could work to make things better instead, you know. nt Live and Learn Feb 2016 #43
Martin Shkreli, is that you? nt JustABozoOnThisBus Feb 2016 #169
Wow just wow..... pinebox Feb 2016 #33
Jury 2-5 to keep this. Unbelievable. n/t PonyUp Feb 2016 #35
The elitists are out in force today. nt Live and Learn Feb 2016 #45
Well, the poster's a ******, but the post in itself isn't hide-worthy Orrex Feb 2016 #85
I voted to keep it because I knew he would get thrashed LittleBlue Feb 2016 #112
Ah! A Hillary supporter. Katashi_itto Feb 2016 #60
Bernie supporter actually NobodyHere Feb 2016 #65
Mmmhmmm. Ed Suspicious Feb 2016 #72
Yeah right. Katashi_itto Feb 2016 #122
Tell you what ... Trajan Feb 2016 #152
Anyone with a user name like "Nobody Here" has serious issues Lorien Feb 2016 #167
Yeah! Fuck everybody else! Orrex Feb 2016 #83
So, how'd you do it? Duppers Feb 2016 #121
Kind of a shitty thing to say. redwitch Feb 2016 #125
It sucks to read your post... MrMickeysMom Feb 2016 #137
I weep for you. nt retrowire Feb 2016 #148
Sheesh ... Trajan Feb 2016 #151
When? progressoid Feb 2016 #160
Daddy and Mommy paid for it. mac56 Feb 2016 #168
Sanders also only covers state universities dsc Feb 2016 #6
True angrychair Feb 2016 #11
Pls explain to me the "work 10 hours a week for a free education" statement brush Feb 2016 #20
Seems ok to you angrychair Feb 2016 #26
What's with the smart ass response? I asked if there were other strings attached. brush Feb 2016 #133
I would argue AZ Jim Feb 2016 #179
Under Sanders program if you are expecting the government to pay for your board dsc Feb 2016 #25
Another false claim. Sanders isn't making anyone work at all. Live and Learn Feb 2016 #47
that help consists of work programs and loans dsc Feb 2016 #48
Funny, you left out GRANTS. How is it that Hillary supporters always forget the important things? Live and Learn Feb 2016 #49
As a mother during the late 90s and early 00s, I was raising Skidmore Feb 2016 #131
So??? nt Live and Learn Feb 2016 #15
over half the OP is about what a vile program Hillary has since she only covers state universites dsc Feb 2016 #23
That is simply not true. One sentence in the OP is dedicated to that. Live and Learn Feb 2016 #24
I may die with unpaid college debt TeddyR Feb 2016 #7
So corporate welfare is ok? angrychair Feb 2016 #10
Tore the words right out of my mouth. VulgarPoet Feb 2016 #17
Can't you be against both? Nt metroins Feb 2016 #84
College is overrated. Elmergantry Feb 2016 #30
Yes angrychair Feb 2016 #36
If they can't do a cost-benefit analysis NobodyHere Feb 2016 #41
Not hard. Elmergantry Feb 2016 #52
I would expect Republicans to view education that way, not Democrats. liberal_at_heart Feb 2016 #37
I swear, when it comes to things like higher education SammyWinstonJack Feb 2016 #156
I agree, it is over rated! leftofcool Feb 2016 #44
I wish I was more "handy" Elmergantry Feb 2016 #50
Fantastic! leftofcool Feb 2016 #59
Follow your own advice and do research. Because you're clueless jeff47 Feb 2016 #61
Learn a trade Elmergantry Feb 2016 #86
And they're supposed to know that before going to college because.......? jeff47 Feb 2016 #103
Nothing in life is guarenteed. Elmergantry Feb 2016 #154
Then why are you arguing as if job prospects are guaranteed? jeff47 Feb 2016 #163
I am arguing they are better Elmergantry Feb 2016 #193
Hmmm... let's do that whatthehey Feb 2016 #106
I tell my college students that although it used to be possible to declare bankruptcy tblue37 Feb 2016 #127
How did you "get screwed"? TeddyR Feb 2016 #51
Sad. Just sad. No wonder only 30% of Americans consider themselves Democrats anymore. liberal_at_heart Feb 2016 #54
Doesn't answer the question TeddyR Feb 2016 #58
"..massive tax increases to pay for that plan." HeartoftheMidwest Feb 2016 #76
Very well put, HM! nt Mnemosyne Feb 2016 #146
What do you think TeddyR Feb 2016 #180
Don't really want to digress from the topic of the OP.... HeartoftheMidwest Feb 2016 #184
With respect to digressing from the topic TeddyR Feb 2016 #185
Sorry if I wasn't clear. HeartoftheMidwest Feb 2016 #187
Must be nice to live in your world angrychair Feb 2016 #70
Your better off. Elmergantry Feb 2016 #89
ROFL angrychair Feb 2016 #99
So your in IT? Elmergantry Feb 2016 #155
So what is your complaint? TeddyR Feb 2016 #181
Wow. I would say I can't believe this is what the Democratic Party has turned into but liberal_at_heart Feb 2016 #13
I can pinebox Feb 2016 #34
+ another RiverLover Feb 2016 #144
Seriously??? Is that what you thought about the Company Stores where Live and Learn Feb 2016 #18
What is the babble about TeddyR Feb 2016 #55
And there you have it. leftofcool Feb 2016 #22
Pink unicorns and fairy dust. We Can't Do that!! Live and Learn Feb 2016 #12
I worked my way through. leftofcool Feb 2016 #21
So did I. RiverLover Feb 2016 #40
When? progressoid Feb 2016 #159
Back when college tuition was 1500 a semester and minimum wage was 90 cents an hour. leftofcool Feb 2016 #170
So, at the far left side of that graph then. progressoid Feb 2016 #189
...and far fewer German Citizens get the benefit of the free tuition brooklynite Feb 2016 #38
It's a bit of a misleading chart Bradical79 Feb 2016 #192
What I don't understand is the mindset of having to go full time to a 4 year university Press Virginia Feb 2016 #42
There is no one size fits all model. That is the problem. I am glad you were able to work liberal_at_heart Feb 2016 #46
That is what my oldest son did. Went to a commnity college for two years (made sure Waldorf Feb 2016 #115
It's a smart way to do it Press Virginia Feb 2016 #120
Maybe.... backtomn Feb 2016 #56
Have we been secretly transported to FreeRepublic? I can't handle hearing liberal_at_heart Feb 2016 #57
I have a degree..... backtomn Feb 2016 #62
No, you're just a jerk. n/t Admiral Loinpresser Feb 2016 #79
This whole thread is full of the same catch phrases isn't it? laundry_queen Feb 2016 #74
ITA Dems2002 Feb 2016 #153
There is 1 STEM job opening for every 6 STEM graduates. jeff47 Feb 2016 #64
You have to take that into account treestar Feb 2016 #67
Banks don't hand out the loans anymore. jeff47 Feb 2016 #102
I never mentioned visas, but.... backtomn Feb 2016 #77
Apparently you have never heard Admiral Loinpresser Feb 2016 #80
Yep Economics cant be ignored. Elmergantry Feb 2016 #91
The thing you claimed was a smart choice isn't. jeff47 Feb 2016 #101
The government used to bankroll public colleges Arazi Feb 2016 #175
If I had to go to college now treestar Feb 2016 #63
There are a lot of hard conversations that have to be had bluestateguy Feb 2016 #66
My husband was told in high school by the principle he would never amount to anything. liberal_at_heart Feb 2016 #71
Good for your husband. Beacool Feb 2016 #142
TY. Nice to hear common sense. N/T Elmergantry Feb 2016 #94
I must admit I am constantly shocked by the amount of student debt SheilaT Feb 2016 #68
The system is the problem, not the students. We keep blaming average Americans for liberal_at_heart Feb 2016 #78
It's not entirely the system. SheilaT Feb 2016 #88
If we had tuition free college, we wouldn't have to limit students choices based on debt and income liberal_at_heart Feb 2016 #90
Tuition free, or very low tuition is something I support. SheilaT Feb 2016 #100
"The system" and "the parents" are both problems TexasMommaWithAHat Feb 2016 #110
How did they pay for junior college? liberal_at_heart Feb 2016 #111
Lived at home and got jobs. TexasMommaWithAHat Feb 2016 #114
I'm not saying that people shouldn't go to community college. My daughter goes to liberal_at_heart Feb 2016 #116
True, but many more students go to college these days, as well. TexasMommaWithAHat Feb 2016 #118
Are you seriously comparing 10 hours of work a week to slavery? taught_me_patience Feb 2016 #69
Frankly, I am shocked at the entitled attitude among some here. TexasMommaWithAHat Feb 2016 #113
Public colleges and universities were free in the 1960s. senz Feb 2016 #73
+1000000. Thank you. This thread is thoroughly depressing me. I think I'm just going to liberal_at_heart Feb 2016 #75
No, they weren't free. Not all of them. I believe in California they were, but not in other states SheilaT Feb 2016 #82
Sorry. In a hurry I forgot to put "in California" in the title. But they were cheaper elsewhere. senz Feb 2016 #143
In the 60's about 5 percent went to college yeoman6987 Feb 2016 #130
Wrong. Enrollment increased from 29.4% in 1950 to-- eridani Feb 2016 #157
In very few places were they free, though they were much cheaper Recursion Feb 2016 #135
Working 10 hours a week is nothing dlwickham Feb 2016 #81
The other option is to flee the country and never return, JPnoodleman Feb 2016 #92
Exactly. Short term thinking on this will only lead to more problems down the road. liberal_at_heart Feb 2016 #93
Short term thinking is second nature in America unfortunately, JPnoodleman Feb 2016 #97
Poorshaming. K&R. JDPriestly Feb 2016 #95
We certainly could afford it if we weren't spending trillions on war. liberal_at_heart Feb 2016 #96
We have positively useless weapons systems, JPnoodleman Feb 2016 #98
It's got to be tuition and fees. The fees are way more than tuition, at least in MA. seaglass Feb 2016 #119
Thanks. JDPriestly Feb 2016 #136
Student Loans, many of them predatory . . FairWinds Feb 2016 #104
If I had to do it over: I'd go to a trade school and learn to be a plumber or electrician. Paper Roses Feb 2016 #105
For those who want to be plumbers that is great. We also need doctors, scientists, liberal_at_heart Feb 2016 #107
I understand your perspective angrychair Feb 2016 #108
I chose to fight to change it. Those who fought for the Labor Movement, the Women's liberal_at_heart Feb 2016 #109
Problem is that you need to be a family member to get into one of those corrupt unions n/t taught_me_patience Feb 2016 #117
Sorry someone had to work a whole 10 hours a week to help pay tuition. zappaman Feb 2016 #123
ditto Roy Ellefson Feb 2016 #124
I'm sorry, but if you think that Sanders will get free college tuition for all, Beacool Feb 2016 #126
exactly Roy Ellefson Feb 2016 #129
I know, I know, the revolution is coming and millions of people will take to the streets demanding workinclasszero Feb 2016 #174
Hidden in your post is the supposition that ONLY Sen. Sanders will be elected. HeartoftheMidwest Feb 2016 #188
Actually, that's not a factual argument. Beacool Feb 2016 #190
You are not alone. PowerToThePeople Feb 2016 #128
Why did YOU take out so much debt, with no hope of repaying it? Kang Colby Feb 2016 #132
Everyone who takes debt for college expects to be able to repay it. RiverLover Feb 2016 #145
I think it's a fair question... Kang Colby Feb 2016 #158
tuition is only 20% or less of total cost of college BlueStateLib Feb 2016 #138
Ya know, Bernie's plan is about State colleges, too. Orangepeel Feb 2016 #139
Hillary attended Yale and paid for it herself. Beacool Feb 2016 #140
Also bluestateguy Feb 2016 #149
True..... Beacool Feb 2016 #150
Look closer greymattermom Feb 2016 #141
so will I.... mike_c Feb 2016 #147
I don't think it's unreasonable Ms. Yertle Feb 2016 #161
Oddly, I agree with both sides here. noamnety Feb 2016 #162
Curious angrychair Feb 2016 #171
Yes and no. My college payment was a mess. noamnety Feb 2016 #173
The only solution is revolution. This is not some cheesy slogan. Zorra Feb 2016 #164
The University where I teach is $23,300 a year Lorien Feb 2016 #165
Truthfully, these are the types of schools that need to be closed -- at least taken off loan list. Hoyt Feb 2016 #177
My heart breaks for you AZ Jim Feb 2016 #176
So I scrimped and saved so my daughter could redstateblues Feb 2016 #178
I admire what you did for your daughter TeddyR Feb 2016 #182
this thread is so depressing Roy Ellefson Feb 2016 #183
What does the bank bailout TeddyR Feb 2016 #186
Post removed Post removed Sep 2016 #194
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