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Zorra

(27,670 posts)
199. It doesn't matter if marriage was on the table or not. Just because there is
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 01:56 PM
Sep 2015

no record of something doesn't mean it did not and does not exist. By all indications, Bernie supported full civil rights for LGBT since at least the early 70's.

"Let us abolish all laws which impose a particular brand of morality or "right" upon people. Let's abolish all laws dealing with...sexual behavior, homosexuality...)

http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/bernie-sanders-was-full-gay-equality-40-years-ago


"All" means ALL:

Definition of "all":

predeterminer, determiner, & pronoun

1. used to refer to the whole quantity or extent of a particular group or thing.


All means all. No caveats, no exceptions. Bernie did not say, "Let us abolish all laws dealing with homosexuality, except for any and all laws that prevent gays from marrying".

Now, some may use the stupid argument that there were no laws against same sex marriage at the time, but using that argument is lose and fail, in terms of reality. Lesbians and gays could not legally marry anywhere in the US at that time, and none did, unless maybe a few used a brilliant disguise and subterfuge .

And some may say, well, but he didn't say anything about gay marriage!! But that is meaningless with respect to claims that he did not support same sex marriage.

"Joe never said that he supported same sex marriage, therefore, he did not support same sex marriage" is nonsense.

Bernie is clearly an old school freedom loving liberal progressive. If you would have asked Bernie, in 1972, if he supported same sex marriage, I believe he would have replied, "Sure, why wouldn't I?"

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why... I dream of things that never were, and ask why not? ~ Robert F. Kennedy

“It is my very strong view that a society which proclaims human freedom as its goal, as the United States does, must work unceasingly to end discrimination against all people..." Bernie Sanders, 1985

All. Fucking A-L-L. He did not say, "we must work unceasingly to end discrimination against all people, except for gays. Gays should be subject to certain forms of discrimination and inequality, and should not have the right to marry like heterosexual individuals can."

He said "all", as in "the whole quantity or extent of a particular group or thing".

The centuries spanning homophobic belief, profoundly institutionalized into the collective consciousness, that LGBT are inferior, pariah, and "not really the same as normal humans", can make it utterly incomprehensible to some, that a straight person back in the 1960's (when gay marriage was rarely spoken of) could actually have believed that LGBT were equal human beings, worthy of respect and full equal rights, including the right to be able to marry the adult of their choosing, just like heterosexuals have the right to do so.

Please understand, I'm not implying that this is at all true in your case, Agschmid.
He voted for the Afghanistan war. hrmjustin Sep 2015 #1
So otherwise you agree with the poster? nm rhett o rick Sep 2015 #2
She has her votes I disagree with but my point is he supported war. hrmjustin Sep 2015 #3
Do you think that Sen Sanders is too progressive? nm rhett o rick Sep 2015 #4
I would have no problem supporting him if he was the nominee. hrmjustin Sep 2015 #5
That is precisely how I feel about Hillary Clinton. Warren DeMontague Sep 2015 #27
Funny Duckhunter935 Sep 2015 #37
Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2015 #79
She has higher favorable numbers thann the Republicans. hrmjustin Sep 2015 #84
So does a pile of...oh, never mind...as you were n/t ejbr Sep 2015 #85
This message was self-deleted by its author hrmjustin Sep 2015 #86
ANYONE has higher favorable numbers than the RepubliCONs. RoccoR5955 Sep 2015 #88
And? hrmjustin Sep 2015 #91
Just sayin' n/t RoccoR5955 Sep 2015 #93
And... kenfrequed Sep 2015 #115
That would be my question. RoccoR5955 Sep 2015 #170
First time I've ever imagined whale feces. senz Sep 2015 #161
It's good for fertilizing an Octopus's Garden klook Sep 2015 #169
Perfect likeness of Ringo. (Not whale feces, the cartoon.) senz Sep 2015 #175
... senz Sep 2015 #227
Actually, you did reply to my post. klook Sep 2015 #246
True. But relying mainly on your opponents' stupididy is not good strategy n/t eridani Sep 2015 #116
And? merrily Sep 2015 #182
Wait a minute there. RoccoR5955 Sep 2015 #87
I don't think so. You mistake me for someone else. hrmjustin Sep 2015 #90
Ok my bad. n/t RoccoR5955 Sep 2015 #94
Not the votes listed. Warren DeMontague Sep 2015 #6
He still voted for it. hrmjustin Sep 2015 #8
Bernie's never claimed to be a pacifist. Nope. 99th_Monkey Sep 2015 #9
If he was a pacifist who swore off all military action, always, they'd try to clobber him with that. Warren DeMontague Sep 2015 #18
Ok but my point is he voted for war. hrmjustin Sep 2015 #20
He voted to use US forces to capture/kill the 911 perps, yes 99th_Monkey Sep 2015 #26
i remember when Obama "escalated" in Afghanistan treestar Sep 2015 #129
Going in initially & timely to get 911 perps, is not the same as escalating perpetual war 99th_Monkey Sep 2015 #168
And what's the point of your point? Scootaloo Sep 2015 #65
He is responsible for his votes like she is. hrmjustin Sep 2015 #66
How do you hold her responsible for her war voteS, plural, and her advocacy for the Iraq War? merrily Sep 2015 #184
No, he voted for ONE war. And that objection is a HOOT coming from a supporter of Hillary. merrily Sep 2015 #183
I would assume from your posts that you didn't support going into Afghanistan. Am I right? A Simple Game Sep 2015 #221
Which would be relevant to the OP if it were part of it, but it's not. Warren DeMontague Sep 2015 #16
War is war and they are responsible for their votes. hrmjustin Sep 2015 #21
War is war? So vietnam=WWII=Afghanistan=Iraq? Warren DeMontague Sep 2015 #23
Lets put your insult aside and say the dead in Afghanistan would not see the distinction. hrmjustin Sep 2015 #28
Its an insult to say that I know you're smarter than the argument you seem to be putting forth? Warren DeMontague Sep 2015 #36
He will be questioned on his vote like she will. hrmjustin Sep 2015 #40
Yeah, but I think the IWR is widely recognized to be a far worse call than the Afghanistan vote. Warren DeMontague Sep 2015 #57
Not to the dead but I get your point. hrmjustin Sep 2015 #59
now, dont drag bob and phil into this. Warren DeMontague Sep 2015 #67
Let Phil sing! zappaman Sep 2015 #120
Actually, as good as the FTW shows were, I do think some fundamental flaws in that old proposal Warren DeMontague Sep 2015 #122
I couldn't agree more. zappaman Sep 2015 #155
Oh, please, Neither would civilian dead in any war. There WAS a distinction between merrily Sep 2015 #185
Trivial compared to the wars he voted against. Ken Burch Sep 2015 #17
I am sure the dead in Afghanistan don't think it was trivial. hrmjustin Sep 2015 #22
This line of attack is weak, Justin. Warren DeMontague Sep 2015 #24
I will warren. Cheers. hrmjustin Sep 2015 #31
It really isn't treestar Sep 2015 #131
Seriously, what is it with all the false equivalencies? merrily Sep 2015 #187
This message was self-deleted by its author Ken Burch Sep 2015 #25
??? Warren DeMontague Sep 2015 #30
Nonsensical. hrmjustin Sep 2015 #32
Uh, you got the flow of time backwards. jeff47 Sep 2015 #156
While we are on the subject of "word choices" ... staggerleem Sep 2015 #206
He also voted to fund all those wars he supposedly voted against. MADem Sep 2015 #77
They like to neglect that fact. Very dishonest on there part. hrmjustin Sep 2015 #81
and notice when he said he would use drones, that's suddenly OK treestar Sep 2015 #132
IOKIYB, I guess! Situational outrage is en vogue I suppose...! nt MADem Sep 2015 #137
But were the posts from the same people? (n/t) thesquanderer Sep 2015 #144
Hard to say treestar Sep 2015 #146
Of course he did. He supports American soldiers who were sent on foreign adventures by neocons and Ed Suspicious Sep 2015 #186
Yes, and he supports the American Military Industrial Complex in the form of MADem Sep 2015 #209
Funny, I didn't know troops were pork. RichVRichV Sep 2015 #210
Troops ARE pork to congressmen. MADem Sep 2015 #214
So does every citizen. RichVRichV Sep 2015 #217
Perhaps it's not clear to you, but those things that servicemembers get are called ORDERS. MADem Sep 2015 #219
I'm not sure where you're going with those first two paragraphs. RichVRichV Sep 2015 #224
The economic benefit that a base offers a region has to do with PERSONNEL and JOBS. MADem Sep 2015 #229
Every soldier that goes to a base somewhere in the country is leaving another area of the country. RichVRichV Sep 2015 #253
Most of them ENTER the military from depressed economies. MADem Sep 2015 #254
Should we never declare war? MannyGoldstein Sep 2015 #75
I never said that. My point is Sanders supporters like to glaze over the vote. hrmjustin Sep 2015 #76
Are you conflating the invasion of Afghanistan in 2002 with the Afghanistan surge Admiral Loinpresser Sep 2015 #134
The point is that the other war votes far outweigh it. Ken Burch Sep 2015 #173
FAR more telling: how many times Hillary voted FOR wars and surges. merrily Sep 2015 #190
The minute you see cherry-picking, it makes one suspicious of the veracity and the intent. MADem Sep 2015 #220
Many persons did support war with Afghanistan… MrMickeysMom Sep 2015 #97
I don't know why they voted for it. hrmjustin Sep 2015 #99
From FeeltheBern.org: Iraq War Spending Bills to Aid Veterans and Vermonters think Sep 2015 #103
That is all nice and good but he still voted to fund the war. hrmjustin Sep 2015 #104
Yes it is good to take care of veterans, make sure emergency funding got passed for Katrina victims, think Sep 2015 #109
Interesting. Hillary did not meniton one of the major reasons that Bernie voted against JDPriestly Sep 2015 #172
That's ugly. Once troops are put in harm's way, voting against funding is reprehensible. merrily Sep 2015 #192
Exactly RichVRichV Sep 2015 #211
And he loves drones now. Funny how he'll vote to help veterans in HIS state, but screw those MADem Sep 2015 #248
You have that wrong. He did not in the Senate. However Hillary Clinton did... MrMickeysMom Sep 2015 #106
Try reading instead of insulting. You might learn something. hrmjustin Sep 2015 #107
Jeebus, you don't even see your error with this, do you? MrMickeysMom Sep 2015 #118
No, voting to go to war in Afghanistan does not equal supporting war. Typical. merrily Sep 2015 #180
Afghanistan was where OBL was hiding out, supposedly; until 99th_Monkey Sep 2015 #11
And he voted for the war. hrmjustin Sep 2015 #19
Please see 99th_Monkey Sep 2015 #29
Yet that war continues. hrmjustin Sep 2015 #34
OK, but not because of Bernie. Obama's the POTUS who's kept troops there. -nt- 99th_Monkey Sep 2015 #38
Yet he bares responsibility with everyone else who voted for it. hrmjustin Sep 2015 #39
Ok, that's true as far as it goes 99th_Monkey Sep 2015 #41
The Iraq War vote matters more. Ken Burch Sep 2015 #33
The dead in Afghanistan care about both of their votes. hrmjustin Sep 2015 #35
The problem with Hillary supporters is trying to make Sanders supporter the issue 99th_Monkey Sep 2015 #45
Is that what you think I am doing? hrmjustin Sep 2015 #46
I have no idea what you are doing. Do you? 99th_Monkey Sep 2015 #52
I already told you. You have a pleasant evening. hrmjustin Sep 2015 #54
Same to you. Peace out. -nt- 99th_Monkey Sep 2015 #56
I don't like us being in Afghanistan, either. Ken Burch Sep 2015 #70
Justin.... pinebox Sep 2015 #178
I don't want a president that would never go to war no matter what. TheFarseer Sep 2015 #60
My point is he is responsible for his votes just like HRC is. hrmjustin Sep 2015 #64
He sure is. And he showed good judgement in this vote, as he most typically does LondonReign2 Sep 2015 #151
All but one member of Congress voted with Bernie on that defense resolution. senz Sep 2015 #166
He thought, like most of us did, that we were going to go in there, get Bin Laden and bring him to PatrickforO Sep 2015 #42
But he bares responsibility for his vote. hrmjustin Sep 2015 #43
Sure he does. But the fact remains that he voted AGAINST three wars and for one. What this tells me PatrickforO Sep 2015 #96
He also voted to fund the Iraq war I believe. Why? hrmjustin Sep 2015 #98
Are you seriously claiming starving our troops is a good plan? jeff47 Sep 2015 #159
Wait a minute kenfrequed Sep 2015 #117
99.8% of Congress did jfern Sep 2015 #47
Bernie also just proposed a war tax on millionaires... Where does Hillary stand on that? cascadiance Sep 2015 #51
I would support it. hrmjustin Sep 2015 #53
Sorry that there is not the perfect candidate RoccoR5955 Sep 2015 #89
Vote for whoever you want. hrmjustin Sep 2015 #92
Even Ron Paul voted for that one Reter Sep 2015 #100
Still responsible for his vote. hrmjustin Sep 2015 #101
Along with everyone else in Congress (but one). Big deal. senz Sep 2015 #167
H J Res 64 - 9/14/2001 - authorized DEFENSE against 9/11 attackers. senz Sep 2015 #158
We were attacked. JDPriestly Sep 2015 #165
He voted against the invasion of Iraq. Afghanistan is totally distinguishable. merrily Sep 2015 #177
Facts are stubborn things, aren't they rhett! hifiguy Sep 2015 #7
Bernie Rocks! peacebird Sep 2015 #10
It is essential that a presidential candidate has an opinion on an issue Rosa Luxemburg Sep 2015 #12
Death Penalty, Minimum Wage, Social Security... HappyPlace Sep 2015 #13
OMG all the hate OMG L0oniX Sep 2015 #14
It is literally a "Hate Chart" filled with "Crazy Hate Facts"! HDS! HDS! It's an "HDS Chart"! nt Bonobo Sep 2015 #15
It makes it rather obvious which one is the most progressive and anti-war. Tierra_y_Libertad Sep 2015 #44
I think you should research where some of these "ratings" or narratives come from.... George II Sep 2015 #48
What would those be? madokie Sep 2015 #50
There are two ratings listed, one from NARAL and one from the ACLU. Which do you disagree with? LondonReign2 Sep 2015 #62
A whole lot of that list is false or inaccurate. George II Sep 2015 #74
So please enlighten us RoccoR5955 Sep 2015 #95
I would think it incumbent on the person who posted this to provide background... George II Sep 2015 #102
There are many, many threads here that get into detail as to what Sen Sanders rhett o rick Sep 2015 #110
Simple - "Clinton supporters" don't post in those threads..... George II Sep 2015 #114
Once again you are way wrong. There are lots and lots of issue related threads in GD: P. rhett o rick Sep 2015 #157
Links, like facts, are irrelevant. Only the tired spin matters. merrily Sep 2015 #198
They are hoping that if they fling enough poo at the wall, some will stick. Anything to avoid rhett o rick Sep 2015 #203
Just smile and nod, I guess. merrily Sep 2015 #205
So, random claims of inaccuracy without any proof? OK LondonReign2 Sep 2015 #149
in the words of Christopher Hitchens hifiguy Sep 2015 #264
I like this breakdown better MyNameGoesHere Sep 2015 #49
Are you a Bernie supporter? azmom Sep 2015 #55
I cannot support MyNameGoesHere Sep 2015 #72
re: whether socialism can coexist in a capitalist system thesquanderer Sep 2015 #143
You mean the programs MyNameGoesHere Sep 2015 #163
Democratic Socialism already does coexist with our capitalist system Z_California Sep 2015 #154
Wow MyNameGoesHere Sep 2015 #162
Oh sweet Jesus! Dawgs Sep 2015 #191
Never put much MyNameGoesHere Sep 2015 #202
NO! Democratic Socialism is about ... staggerleem Sep 2015 #208
Actually, he's a candidate who believes social programs like Medicare for All can improve capitalism merrily Sep 2015 #196
Social Programs that can MyNameGoesHere Sep 2015 #201
We get that you don't like capitalism but what do you support? Socialism? nm rhett o rick Sep 2015 #204
Since his preferred source is WSWS Z_California Sep 2015 #235
It's my opinion that both Karl Marx and Ayn Rand suffered from a similar dislusion. rhett o rick Sep 2015 #240
Extremely enlightening article - perhaps every Sanders supporter should read it. George II Sep 2015 #71
I don't think that would be helpful MyNameGoesHere Sep 2015 #78
I'm afraid you're correct. George II Sep 2015 #82
Lines have been drawn. The 1% on one side and the 99% on the other. rhett o rick Sep 2015 #112
Very simplistic MyNameGoesHere Sep 2015 #119
Maybe not. But who else is even bringing up any issues that matter? mhatrw Sep 2015 #121
VEry interesting outlook. I don't say you are wrong. But we must do something. rhett o rick Sep 2015 #153
. merrily Sep 2015 #200
Why? To convince us Sanders is not as far left as his would be detractors claim? merrily Sep 2015 #197
Your article omits this as part of Sanders' Mayoral record. Uncle Joe Sep 2015 #124
They omitted more, but your article points out an obvious... MrMickeysMom Sep 2015 #125
Your last paragraph is contradictory. Uncle Joe Sep 2015 #126
Update to my previous post, I understand and agree with your points. Uncle Joe Sep 2015 #176
Hey, Uncle Joe! MrMickeysMom Sep 2015 #245
"If an institution provides virtually no free care to the poor, klook Sep 2015 #171
It's not my article MyNameGoesHere Sep 2015 #258
Look I'm a Bernie supporter but the Gay Marriage one is wrong... Agschmid Sep 2015 #58
Hillary was opposed to gay marriage until March 2013 LondonReign2 Sep 2015 #63
And even last year thought it should be up to the states jfern Sep 2015 #105
Well, at least back to 96, when he voted against DOMA thesquanderer Sep 2015 #138
sanders first support out loud of marriage equality was 2009. because he was silent, and never seabeyond Sep 2015 #145
FALSE. And, even if true, he was better on this issue than Hillary, on this issue and most other merrily Sep 2015 #193
no it isnt false. but really, cute. yell false and then, even if true. ha ha seabeyond Sep 2015 #223
Bullshit walks. Ha ha merrily Sep 2015 #228
gay rights. not marriage equality. find one quote from him on marriage equality before 2009. 1 quote seabeyond Sep 2015 #231
Full equality is full equality. If it's good enough for gay publications, it's good enough for me. merrily Sep 2015 #232
ONE mention of marriage equality before 2009. when you cant find it you might ask yourself why. seabeyond Sep 2015 #233
What part of voting against DOMA in 1996 do you not get? What part of full equality do you not get? merrily Sep 2015 #234
Here: beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #236
His votes count but keep pretending they don't, it speaks volumes about what really matters to you. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #237
Because voting against banning same sex marriage PROVES he didn't support marriage equality!!! beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #230
He called for equal rights in the 80s. That includes marriage jeff47 Sep 2015 #160
It doesn't matter if marriage was on the table or not. Just because there is Zorra Sep 2015 #199
***THIS***THIS***THIS*** beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #226
Just a few of the many reasons jschurchin Sep 2015 #61
It is an intersting dichotomy LondonReign2 Sep 2015 #68
Too true. Personality politics. nt. Duppers Sep 2015 #80
worse than "so what", is the newest reply "superdelegates" n/t MoveIt Sep 2015 #113
I say "so what" for a few reasons. DanTex Sep 2015 #128
re: "Hillary can beat the GOP in the GE, and Bernie can't." thesquanderer Sep 2015 #135
All of them outside of the Northeast and maybe the West Coast. DanTex Sep 2015 #136
"too left for most of the country" isn't an issue thesquanderer Sep 2015 #141
If working people in red states can hear him, they might wake up. senz Sep 2015 #179
Actually, Bernie can beat the GOP in the GE, and Hillary can't LondonReign2 Sep 2015 #150
Crystal Clear Choice. NowSam Sep 2015 #69
LOLOLOLOLOL SoapBox Sep 2015 #73
Seeing 21/123 replies here, so I know where you're coming from. nt Erich Bloodaxe BSN Sep 2015 #127
... SoapBox Sep 2015 #148
K & R Duppers Sep 2015 #83
Still can't wait for the debates. lonestarnot Sep 2015 #108
Ridiculous!!! Bonobo Sep 2015 #111
Good point. "I like Bernie but....... rhett o rick Sep 2015 #239
Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Sep 2015 #123
Gee, another cherry-picked misleading piece of anti-Hillary propaganda. DanTex Sep 2015 #130
Oh I thought Bernie and Hillary were very similar? ibegurpard Sep 2015 #140
They are. On most issues they agree, and where Bernie is further left, his plans don't stand DanTex Sep 2015 #142
But there ARE differences, and they DO matter. senz Sep 2015 #164
Sure, but these cherry-picked charts are misleading. DanTex Sep 2015 #213
Well it shows who's a liberal democrat and who's an authoritarian corporatist. senz Sep 2015 #244
Hillary is no more of an "authoritarian corporatist" than Bernie is a gun nut. DanTex Sep 2015 #249
She's pro-war, pro-patriot act, pro-TPP & NAFTA, anti-wall street regulation senz Sep 2015 #257
LOL. "From the OP chart". Yeah, if you make decisions based on propaganda charts, DanTex Sep 2015 #259
Address the facts (the content) not the format, not the source. Her own words, her own votes. senz Sep 2015 #260
You claim to care about issues, but then you cite some nonsense chart in order to criticize Hillary. DanTex Sep 2015 #261
Yes, character also matters for me. senz Sep 2015 #262
My enthusiasm is about putting a Dem in the White House. DanTex Sep 2015 #263
It's impossible to be ok with Glass-Steagall repeal and still claim to support financial reform. Ken Burch Sep 2015 #174
I suppose Paul Krugman doesn't know what he's talking about then. DanTex Sep 2015 #189
" Climate change is much broader than a carbon tax." Wow is that Clinton's official rhett o rick Sep 2015 #207
Umm, no, that's just one sentence that I wrote. DanTex Sep 2015 #212
Thank you. You don't how hard it is to get anyone to defend Clinton's support for fracking. rhett o rick Sep 2015 #215
You're welcome. DanTex Sep 2015 #218
Fracking is destroying billions of gallons of our precious drinking water yet H. Clinton and Chevron rhett o rick Sep 2015 #256
And yet Hillary folk tell us they are virtually identical on most votes... But she is more electable peacebird Sep 2015 #133
Well they are obviously the same! ibegurpard Sep 2015 #139
Well, his votes are principled, well thought-out, and not pandering. senz Sep 2015 #181
K&R raouldukelives Sep 2015 #147
This should be on billboards all over the country K&R! n/t whatchamacallit Sep 2015 #152
Rhett, I read that she did not publicly endorse equal marriage until 2013. merrily Sep 2015 #188
Hillary doesn't get a free pass on Snowden's revelations...BUT cheapdate Sep 2015 #194
THANKS A LOT Rhett. mylye2222 Sep 2015 #195
Bernie has never made any progress on any of those issues though. moobu2 Sep 2015 #216
Most Senators/Congressmen don't "make progress" with their votes. senz Sep 2015 #243
Iraq War Vote colsohlibgal Sep 2015 #222
I truly do not understand supporting Hillary marym625 Sep 2015 #225
I believe it's an authoritarian problem. Many Americans were raised to be good little authoritarians rhett o rick Sep 2015 #242
Thank dog I had my parents! marym625 Sep 2015 #247
DU is full of phonies. "Socialists" for Hillary, Rightwinger "progressives", Drug Warriors named Romulox Sep 2015 #251
It's just a matter of time IMO. These are large scale differences, even libdem4life Sep 2015 #238
We know both candidates very well. Clinton hiding isn't going to say her. We rhett o rick Sep 2015 #252
I only find I disagree with Bernie on Snowden, I can deal with that...... 4bucksagallon Sep 2015 #241
Sure, but you neglect one crucial fact: Sanders supporters are poopie heads!!! (sarcasm) Vattel Sep 2015 #250
Agreed with the list. kenfrequed Sep 2015 #255
Latest Discussions»Retired Forums»2016 Postmortem»Let's Compare Senator San...»Reply #199