Democratic Primaries

pnwmom

(109,835 posts)

49. So what you said makes even less sense.

Reply to InAbLuEsTaTe (Reply #40)

Tue Apr 9, 2019, 11:10 PM

Apr 2019

Lots of people I know who supported Hillary, prefer Bernie over Elizabeth because of his stand on progressive issues.

Why would someone who, in the primaries, supported Hillary over Bernie choose Bernie over Elizabeth?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

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How does Bernie think he's going to convince millions of voters who chose Hillary last time [View all] pnwmom Apr 2019 OP

I'm not sure he can win the South during primaries Shell_Seas Apr 2019 #1

he isn't. the plan is they will split among others JI7 Apr 2019 #4

and our nominee is not going to beat trump in the south rampartc Apr 2019 #278

We chose her because she was the most qualified person to ever run. MrsCoffee Apr 2019 #282

+1 betsuni Apr 2019 #283

+1,000,000 Kahuna7 Apr 2019 #284

Are you sure about that? Shell_Seas Apr 2019 #285

i would need to be convinced to allow myself such optimism rampartc Apr 2019 #287

That's a BIG assumption!! InAbLuEsTaTe Apr 2019 #2

What's a big assumption? How do you think he will get Hillary voters to switch sides pnwmom Apr 2019 #3

Easy peasy... look no further than Bernie's progressive agenda. InAbLuEsTaTe Apr 2019 #18

That doesn't answer my questions. I'll make it simpler. pnwmom Apr 2019 #24

Love Warren... could see voting for her myself. Just like Bernie slightly better... InAbLuEsTaTe Apr 2019 #27

You know lots of people who supported Hillary over Bernie in the PRIMARIES, pnwmom Apr 2019 #35

No, Elizabeth is WAY more progressive than Hillary...and closer to Bernie on the political spectrum. InAbLuEsTaTe Apr 2019 #40

So what you said makes even less sense. pnwmom Apr 2019 #49

Are you shocked that it makes no sense? BlueFlorida Apr 2019 #55

Because they got over it and moved on Mr Tibbs Apr 2019 #124

They would have absolutely no reason to pick Bernie over a candidate pnwmom Apr 2019 #148

I'm over it.. here's the thing fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me Thekaspervote Apr 2019 #165

Because many if not most people TheFarseer Apr 2019 #164

No, actually Elizabeth Warren is not more progressive than Hillary Clinton. lapucelle Apr 2019 #141

I don't care what ontheissues says... I'll go with what Hillary says, cuz no one knows InAbLuEsTaTe Apr 2019 #144

But even based on your argument, it would make no sense for a Hillary supporter pnwmom Apr 2019 #149

Thank you for finally showing Bernie proper respect by referring to him as a "Democratic Socialist" InAbLuEsTaTe Apr 2019 #154

Democratic socialists are a sub-group of socialists. And he freely describes himself pnwmom Apr 2019 #155

+1000 Thekaspervote Apr 2019 #166

What are you talking about? N/T lapucelle Apr 2019 #151

Or, they might see EW as more attractive a candidate than BS malchickiwick Apr 2019 #230

It doesn't make any sense mcar Apr 2019 #45

i voted HRC last time and am sticking with Joe this time..we need samnsara Apr 2019 #252

Yeah, same... l'd vote for Joe if he somehow managed to get the nom... but in the primary? Never. InAbLuEsTaTe Apr 2019 #254

exactly..there are a lot of other candidates with progressive agendas.. samnsara Apr 2019 #251

What Agenda? Me. Apr 2019 #29

Slogans, Platitudes and Photo-ops nt BlueFlorida Apr 2019 #56

Wow, I did not know that. You should make that an op. Tipperary Apr 2019 #92

I do believe that it is in the mainstream from 2016, but good to be on the surface for 2020 Thekaspervote Apr 2019 #170

And BS's record is less progressive than that of Warren, Harris, Booker, and Gillibrand. lapucelle Apr 2019 #142

Seems Like A Not Trump Form Of 'Illlusion' Going On Here Me. Apr 2019 #162

It's remarkable that some of his supporters are not even aware of his record lapucelle Apr 2019 #194

Awhhh the truth of it!! Painful as it may be Thekaspervote Apr 2019 #168

Warren, Harris, Gillibrand, and Booker all have stronger progressive records than BS. lapucelle Apr 2019 #139

+1000 Power 2 the People Apr 2019 #201

a lot of us felt yelled at last time.. samnsara Apr 2019 #250

Yes, and the time before that... and we moved on. InAbLuEsTaTe Apr 2019 #253

He doesn't need anyone to switch sides FBaggins Apr 2019 #90

Bernie wasn't even close to having a majority of pledged delegates last time, pnwmom Apr 2019 #169

So? Have you not seen a primary before? FBaggins Apr 2019 #172

So? We've already hit peak-Bernie. He's loved now by the same people who loved him last time, pnwmom Apr 2019 #173

Dems don't have winner-take-all primaries thesquanderer Apr 2019 #279

Thank you for the correction FBaggins Apr 2019 #286

re: "when a dozen or more candidates are splitting the remaining delegates" thesquanderer Apr 2019 #288

I also don't think that he'll keep "his" voters FBaggins Apr 2019 #290

How? He didn't even come close the last time. What has changed? Thekaspervote Apr 2019 #176

I don't think he will FBaggins Apr 2019 #183

Polls show Bernie Sanders' popularity among all voters is plummeting Gothmog Apr 2019 #234

Sounds more like wishful thinking! InAbLuEsTaTe Apr 2019 #257

Denial is not just a river in Africa Gothmog Apr 2019 #259

Glad you show Bernie proper respect by recognizing him as "frontrunner"...at least that's progress!! InAbLuEsTaTe Apr 2019 #261

In the real world, these numbers show that sanders is NOT electable Gothmog Apr 2019 #263

A significant portion of sanders support were really non-democrats who will not be back Gothmog Apr 2019 #241

They won't pick BS. Hillary should have been potus- he should have been out there campaigning Thekaspervote Apr 2019 #163

Hillary graciously took responsibility for her heart-wrenching loss... you should accept that. InAbLuEsTaTe Apr 2019 #221

Many real democrats have very long memories Gothmog Apr 2019 #273

True, Hillary should've... soon it'll be Bernie, did've!! InAbLuEsTaTe Apr 2019 #291

So booing Congressman John Lewis will help win Clinton voters in the real world? Gothmog Apr 2019 #218

You can keep saying that over and over and over again... won't make your dreams come true. InAbLuEsTaTe Apr 2019 #220

Have any significant number of African American voters shown up to a sanders event yet? Gothmog Apr 2019 #233

Have you found video of any significant number of African Americans attending a sanders event yet? Gothmog Apr 2019 #239

From my Twitter feed Gothmog Apr 2019 #289

I supported Bernie in 2016; I don't now. This is nonsense. RDANGELO Apr 2019 #5

What is nonsense? Why do you think millions of Hillary voters would switch to Bernie pnwmom Apr 2019 #7

What is the rational reason for Hillary supporters to hold a grudge against Bernie? RDANGELO Apr 2019 #25

Most Hillary supporters I know are reasonable, rational, and fair... they don't hold grudges... InAbLuEsTaTe Apr 2019 #30

... BlueFlorida Apr 2019 #57

I will vote for Bernie if he is the nominee. But I don't know a single Hillary supporter pnwmom Apr 2019 #72

There are many. MrsCoffee Apr 2019 #38

+∞ LongtimeAZDem Apr 2019 #47

lol melman Apr 2019 #63

+ 100 Me. Apr 2019 #97

It's not a matter of holding a grudge. He didn't interest them before and there's no reason pnwmom Apr 2019 #71

That's a reasonable analysis since Hillary supporters would tend to be more moderate. RDANGELO Apr 2019 #79

Yes, why Hillary supporters are more likely to go for Joe. InAbLuEsTaTe Apr 2019 #255

It has little to do with him running against her radical noodle Apr 2019 #75

You nailed it! Thekaspervote Apr 2019 #182

Many MANY reasons, but not allowed to be posted. Amimnoch Apr 2019 #93

I don't think they're holding a grudge. lapucelle Apr 2019 #150

We didn't pick him the first time and now with even more choices we ain't gonna pick him now. UniteFightBack Apr 2019 #157

The rationale is he said he wouldn't play dirty in 2016.. he did. For 2020 he's hired attack dogs Thekaspervote Apr 2019 #181

That is not it. Many including me feel he did not support her properly in the general. Demsrule86 Apr 2019 #205

Absolutely; "because he ran against her" doesn't even come close to describing the issue. LongtimeAZDem Apr 2019 #211

I am surprised that folks don't understand how horrifying the2016 general election was ... Demsrule86 Apr 2019 #212

I'm not, but getting into it is frowned upon LongtimeAZDem Apr 2019 #213

I said election not primary...the election of 16 was heartbreaking Demsrule86 Apr 2019 #223

Two things are different this time thesquanderer Apr 2019 #280

There won't be enough new voters to make up for the 4 million edge Hillary last time. pnwmom Apr 2019 #281

Post removed Post removed Apr 2019 #42

+∞ LongtimeAZDem Apr 2019 #48

I don't know, and I supported him in 2016 before switching to Hillary at the convention, The Velveteen Ocelot Apr 2019 #6

I totally agree. I voted Bernie in primary, then ended up with Hillary. Irishxs Apr 2019 #13

In my view the most intelligent candidate in the whole group is Warren, especailly in regard to her still_one Apr 2019 #19

I like Warren a lot, too. And I think she'd do much better in the general than Bernie would. pnwmom Apr 2019 #73

I agree. still_one Apr 2019 #77

There are many who are not that hung up on the past. dogman Apr 2019 #8

Why would a Hillary voter pick Bernie over one of the others? He's the same candidate pnwmom Apr 2019 #10

They might be sick of t-Rump and want to win. dogman Apr 2019 #15

That would be true in the general. But I don't know any Hillary supporters who think pnwmom Apr 2019 #20

I don't know any Hillary supporters at all, so I don't know what they think. dogman Apr 2019 #26

I know lots of Hillary (and Bernie) supporters, and I don't know a single Hillary supporter pnwmom Apr 2019 #37

There's this. dogman Apr 2019 #44

That's nothing but name recognition at this point. In 2015 very few people would have said pnwmom Apr 2019 #52

Yep, I'm so over the 2016 bickering, its a whole new ballgame now with a ton of good, progressive yaesu Apr 2019 #69

I think that's the point of the OP radical noodle Apr 2019 #78

I was a Hillary supporter True Blue American Apr 2019 #102

No... the past is so yesterday. InAbLuEsTaTe Apr 2019 #59

Past is prologue. lapucelle Apr 2019 #195

Easy. He will appoint Briahna Joy Gray, David Sirota, and Nina Turner to high positions in his still_one Apr 2019 #9

Yep LongtimeAZDem Apr 2019 #51

I also believe Biden can win a general election still_one Apr 2019 #61

Those names hired by BS awesomerwb1 Apr 2019 #80

........................................................................................... still_one Apr 2019 #82

100% True Blue American Apr 2019 #103

Why should he? If he appeals to folks with his messaging, they'll vote for him. Decoy of Fenris Apr 2019 #11

Because he can't win the nomination without a MAJORITY of delegates. pnwmom Apr 2019 #12

Point being, I just don't think he cares. A brokered convention will winnow the field. Decoy of Fenris Apr 2019 #23

Holy Moses! The return of the fabled "BROKERED CONVENTION" Maru Kitteh Apr 2019 #89

I mean I think it's a real possibility this time qazplm135 Apr 2019 #132

Well, golly, how did an electorate which voted for Barack Obama jberryhill Apr 2019 #14

Do you personally know any Hillary voters who are supporting Bernie now? pnwmom Apr 2019 #16

This may come as a shock jberryhill Apr 2019 #21

There's one on this board. But, there are Cha Apr 2019 #22

Wouldn't be me. calimary Apr 2019 #198

A huge factor was the economic collapse that occurred. That helped President Obama tremendously. still_one Apr 2019 #28

From what I've seen on Twitter Cha Apr 2019 #17

You can plug in any of the candidates names Voltaire2 Apr 2019 #32

Riiiiiiight... that's why Bernie leads in the polls among all the declared candidates. InAbLuEsTaTe Apr 2019 #64

If sanders is the nominee, trump wins Gothmog Apr 2019 #274

I trust the voters... who trust Bernie!! Eventually, you'll realize you're wrong about Bernie... InAbLuEsTaTe Apr 2019 #276

How can sanders get the nomination without African American voters? Gothmog Apr 2019 #277

You seem concerned. aidbo Apr 2019 #31

We all are "concerned" about getting Cha Apr 2019 #34

Totally agree. democratisphere Apr 2019 #43

And I don't know it's ... cannabis_flower Apr 2019 #46

Yes, I am. I think a brokered convention is a large possibility, and that will greatly reduce pnwmom Apr 2019 #39

I totally agree that a broakered could nvention will be the death of D win. Social media will Ninga Apr 2019 #256

More like SCARED...not sure why. Bernie's progressive agenda is extremely popular with likely voters InAbLuEsTaTe Apr 2019 #62

He doesn't stand out as progressive anymore. Not against people like Elizabeth. pnwmom Apr 2019 #74

Why mischaracterize Bernie's message? You know full well he doesn't label himself a "socialist"... InAbLuEsTaTe Apr 2019 #91

Democratic socialists are still socialists. You are thinking of "social democrats," like the pnwmom Apr 2019 #108

Nope, BIG difference... please stop mislabeling Bernie, you're being disrespectful to him. InAbLuEsTaTe Apr 2019 #112

I'm not mislabeling him. You are. Democratic socialists ARE socialists, pnwmom Apr 2019 #114

You might want to follow Obama's advice and stop with the circular firing squad... InAbLuEsTaTe Apr 2019 #116

Bernie's already filed to run as an Independent for the Senate in 2024. pnwmom Apr 2019 #117

Yup, change the subject... I don't blame ya. InAbLuEsTaTe Apr 2019 #119

Right. When tens of millions of Hillary supporters decide he's a better candidate pnwmom Apr 2019 #120

Hillary isn't running Mr Tibbs Apr 2019 #131

She ran in 2016, in case you didn't notice. And the people who chose her over him, pnwmom Apr 2019 #134

that's not changing the subject! It points out the fact that he does not see himself as a dem Thekaspervote Apr 2019 #184

Obama was talking about attacks on Biden by a 2016 Sanders supporter Demsrule86 Apr 2019 #206

Labels over substance for 100, Alex Mr Tibbs Apr 2019 #126

Right. That's exactly what Bernie is doing when he insists on the socialist pnwmom Apr 2019 #147

Democratic socialism is heavily regulated capitalism Mr Tibbs Apr 2019 #125

I suppose you can make up your own definition for words, comradebillyboy Apr 2019 #143

Not according to the Democratic Socialists of America. pnwmom Apr 2019 #146

No it is not. Demsrule86 Apr 2019 #207

Thanks pnwmom. I get so tired of people telling me better social services comradebillyboy Apr 2019 #140

Polls show Bernie Sanders' popularity among all voters is plummeting Gothmog Apr 2019 #236

in a very crowded primary, bernie can win the nomination AlexSFCA Apr 2019 #33

How? What makes you think he would win in a brokered convention with only 30% pnwmom Apr 2019 #36

Not only CAN Bernie win the nomination, but he WILL win it... the writing's on the wall. InAbLuEsTaTe Apr 2019 #58

He had huge rallies in '16. Thousands and thousands of people who didn't vote lunamagica Apr 2019 #67

"Rallies are meaningless"... ohhh okayyyyy, whatever you say. InAbLuEsTaTe Apr 2019 #118

I'll tell that to anyone. Crowds are miningless. Just ask President Romney lunamagica Apr 2019 #121

A lot of writing on walls is just graffiti. MineralMan Apr 2019 #95

He is not winning in New Hampshire. Demsrule86 Apr 2019 #209

I think Biden puts an end to this plan. Demsrule86 Apr 2019 #208

Not in the real world Gothmog Apr 2019 #264

surely they will AlexSFCA Apr 2019 #267

I will support the nominee Gothmog Apr 2019 #268

Simple Answer. democratisphere Apr 2019 #41

Everything right now is speculation. Let's cross that road when we come to it. YOHABLO Apr 2019 #50

I was a Hillary voter BlueFlorida Apr 2019 #53

Maybe not you, but many will jump on the "Bernie bandwagon" InAbLuEsTaTe Apr 2019 #60

... BlueFlorida Apr 2019 #65

But you were always a Sanders supporter. You can't talk for Hillary supporters lunamagica Apr 2019 #68

Why not. That seems to be what they are best at. NT WeekiWater Apr 2019 #128

Runaway with the nomination? Naaa Thekaspervote Apr 2019 #186

No or few Clinton voters will support sanders during the primaries Gothmog Apr 2019 #265

Agree. He will not be the nominee. apcalc Apr 2019 #129

Has he changed his party affiliation yet? dhol82 Apr 2019 #54

It's too early to be certain of much. A lot can happen. Jarqui Apr 2019 #66

Agree with every word! This needs to be said. R B Garr Apr 2019 #70

The same way they got millions of Hillary voters to vote for Obama. vsrazdem Apr 2019 #76

Obama didn't make Hillary lose BlueFlorida Apr 2019 #136

+++++++ comradebillyboy Apr 2019 #145

+1000 Thekaspervote Apr 2019 #187

LOL vsrazdem Apr 2019 #197

You might want to check your facts, and stop living in a fantasy world. vsrazdem Apr 2019 #199

+1 very good list treestar Apr 2019 #262

Too bad so many BS voters didn't vote for Hillary in the GE.. Cha Apr 2019 #81

Too bad so many Hillary voters didn't for for Obama in the GE vsrazdem Apr 2019 #200

That has nothing to do with the Cha Apr 2019 #224

The implication is that Bernie voters cost Hillary the election, which is untrue. vsrazdem Apr 2019 #225

Jill Stein is now officially the Ralph Nader of 2016. Cha Apr 2019 #238

With slogans. betsuni Apr 2019 #83

Same way any other candidate would have to quakerboy Apr 2019 #84

Here's the difference: pnwmom Apr 2019 #85

Then you have no worries quakerboy Apr 2019 #87

My concern is that it will be like last time. pnwmom Apr 2019 #88

Since that didnt actually happen last time quakerboy Apr 2019 #244

Actually, it did. There were protesters at the convention, who had arrived there pnwmom Apr 2019 #245

Except it didnt quakerboy Apr 2019 #246

Hillary would have lost fewer Democrats if some of them hadn't walked away after the convention. pnwmom Apr 2019 #247

I doubt even one was lost after the convention quakerboy Apr 2019 #269

Then why did Bernie campaign for Hillary at all if he didn't think it would make a difference? pnwmom Apr 2019 #270

He can't. There's a huge difference between those who Hortensis Apr 2019 #86

Same as it ever was. Picking up enough support from others as they drop out Tom Rinaldo Apr 2019 #94

Thanks for your posting, Tom! RobertDevereaux Apr 2019 #99

With all the qualified candidates out there he's going to have a difficult time... George II Apr 2019 #96

He REALLY should not have left the Democratic Party after 2016...but he did Baltimike Apr 2019 #98

He joined the party again Mr Tibbs Apr 2019 #110

He did? When? nt Baltimike Apr 2019 #122

March 5th Mr Tibbs Apr 2019 #123

But he ran as a Democrat for the Senate and then changed back after he won... Demsrule86 Apr 2019 #210

It really does feel like he was 'kicking us when we were down" when he left in 2016. nt Baltimike Apr 2019 #248

Yes. I will never get over the 16 election and hope we can stop fascist Trump. Demsrule86 Apr 2019 #266

It's now convenient for him Cha Apr 2019 #242

It's about the policy Mr Tibbs Apr 2019 #100

I don't know that he does think that, and he certainly won't. KPN Apr 2019 #101

Do you think winning the nomination is his goal? MH1 Apr 2019 #104

+1 LongtimeAZDem Apr 2019 #105

Yet he is Miles Ahead of every other declared candidate Mr Tibbs Apr 2019 #111

If he gets the nomination, I'll work to see that he wins. But, I'll do everything I can to prevent LongtimeAZDem Apr 2019 #113

I'll vote for the nominee in the general election. It won't be Sanders. nt MH1 Apr 2019 #115

Miles ahead? apcalc Apr 2019 #127

he isn't miles ahead, And an undeclared is ahead of him JI7 Apr 2019 #135

Hopefully better than his supporters did in 2016. namahage Apr 2019 #204

He's the frontrunner Mr Tibbs Apr 2019 #133

Sorry, no he's not. revmclaren Apr 2019 #137

Attend one of his events, and roody Apr 2019 #106

This was the argument last time, but his events never translated into votes. LongtimeAZDem Apr 2019 #109

His events were covered on TV. Most of us don't need to see any more of them. pnwmom Apr 2019 #152

In this primary, how many are planning to vote for Hillary? Nt hughee99 Apr 2019 #107

Good question melman Apr 2019 #138

The real question is how many of Hillary primary voters will switch to Bernie, allowing him pnwmom Apr 2019 #177

I didn't think he would win last time, and I don't think he'll win this time. hughee99 Apr 2019 #189

The problem is that last time he led his followers to think he was going to win pnwmom Apr 2019 #190

His supporters thought they were getting robbed long before the convention, and hughee99 Apr 2019 #191

He doesn't really need to win over Hillary voters in the primary. Ace Rothstein Apr 2019 #130

Wrong. He can't win with just the plurality he got last time. It wasn't enough then pnwmom Apr 2019 #158

If Bernie has the highest delegate count then he should get the nomination. Ace Rothstein Apr 2019 #159

That's not how it works. It won't go to someone who only has 30 or 40% of the delegates pnwmom Apr 2019 #160

"actual Democrats" melman Apr 2019 #167

Actual Democrats don't file as Independents for the Senate in 2024 at the same time pnwmom Apr 2019 #171

But you weren't referring to him melman Apr 2019 #185

Thx.. so true Thekaspervote Apr 2019 #188

That would ensure a Trump victory and tear the party apart. Ace Rothstein Apr 2019 #192

It's looking like a likely possibility. That's why I was grateful that Hillary wasn't running again pnwmom Apr 2019 #193

You keep confusing delegates with voters FBaggins Apr 2019 #202

This is why Superdelegates are necessary LongtimeAZDem Apr 2019 #214

They certainly helped Clinton lock things up early last time around FBaggins Apr 2019 #215

Not going to get lured into "re-fighting the primary" LongtimeAZDem Apr 2019 #219

I have no intention of re-fighting anything FBaggins Apr 2019 #222

There is no reason to think that Bernie will. nt pnwmom Apr 2019 #229

I don't think he will either FBaggins Apr 2019 #232

I can't stand Bernie! leftieNanner Apr 2019 #153

This is likely his last chance at the WH, i am sure he will run 3rd party if he doesnt get D Eliot Rosewater Apr 2019 #226

Well that would suck! leftieNanner Apr 2019 #227

Oh yeah, I am not wrong. Sadly. Eliot Rosewater Apr 2019 #228

A few points TheFarseer Apr 2019 #156

Now he's got a ton of name recognition, and voters have already made up their minds about him, pnwmom Apr 2019 #161

If you said TheFarseer Apr 2019 #179

Some of Bernie voters just didn't like Hillary. There's no telling who they might vote for, pnwmom Apr 2019 #180

Some just didn't like Hillary TheFarseer Apr 2019 #196

If he's the nominee, I will support him... cynatnite Apr 2019 #174

The OP was about the primaries, not the general. n/t pnwmom Apr 2019 #175

I was trying to be polite. :) n/t cynatnite Apr 2019 #178

Does anyone have data that shows how many people Bernie is attracting? Politicub Apr 2019 #203

I agree. The short answer is...no they won't vote for him. Apple Fritter Apr 2019 #216

Polls show Bernie Sanders' popularity among all voters is plummeting Gothmog Apr 2019 #237

There are a large number of real democrats who will not support sanders for that reason Gothmog Apr 2019 #217

k and r nt Stuart G Apr 2019 #231

If we end up with a trump-Sanders election, Bernie will get my vote. Paladin Apr 2019 #235

The Russian effort to target Bernie Sanders supporters in 2016 was more than previously known Gothmog Apr 2019 #240

The Russian push for BS won't be anywhere near as successful this time. SFnomad Apr 2019 #243

i kind of felt yelled at by him during the last election.... samnsara Apr 2019 #249

He won't win PA in the general against Trump and ebbie15644 Apr 2019 #258

Bernie pamdb Apr 2019 #260

a lot of people voted for her due to perceived electablity KayF Apr 2019 #271

From the Hoarse Whisperer Gothmog Apr 2019 #272

Washingont Post-Can Bernie Sanders really win over Trump voters? Gothmog Apr 2019 #275

He won't NastyRiffraff Apr 2019 #292

I doubt that sanders will convert many Clinton voters due to stunts like this Gothmog Apr 2019 #293