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Karmadillo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 06:10 PM Original message |
Jefferson Elementary: Moral Dilemma in Deciding Whether to Change Name |
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Dyedinthewoolliberal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 06:20 PM Response to Original message |
1. Talk about revisionist history, |
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Abelman (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 06:23 PM Response to Reply #1 |
2. And notice |
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Solly Mack (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 06:33 PM Response to Reply #2 |
3. Were members of the" family "owned? raped? sold? bought? |
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K-W (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 06:36 PM Response to Reply #3 |
4. no, you are just overreacting. |
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Solly Mack (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 06:39 PM Response to Reply #4 |
5. OH BULLSHIT |
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K-W (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 06:42 PM Response to Reply #5 |
7. What he said was true |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 06:47 PM Response to Reply #7 |
10. Deleted message |
K-W (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 06:50 PM Response to Reply #10 |
11. HE DIDNT SAY THEY WERE FAMILY MEMBERS |
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Solly Mack (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 06:54 PM Response to Reply #11 |
14. Oh stop with the semantics... |
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K-W (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 06:57 PM Response to Reply #14 |
18. This isnt semantics, |
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Solly Mack (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 07:03 PM Response to Reply #18 |
23. Who said he said "they WERE family members" BUT YOU? |
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K-W (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 07:09 PM Response to Reply #23 |
25. Perhaps you should read your own posts. |
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Solly Mack (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 07:17 PM Response to Reply #25 |
28. That's a....let's say.. an untruth...to keep within the rules |
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K-W (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 07:23 PM Response to Reply #28 |
31. No, that is not spin. |
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Solly Mack (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 07:38 PM Response to Reply #31 |
34. You're still spinning |
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K-W (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 07:44 PM Response to Reply #34 |
38. I'm sure the truth looks like spin you, |
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Solly Mack (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 07:51 PM Response to Reply #38 |
41. Oh bother... |
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K-W (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 07:55 PM Response to Reply #41 |
45. Obviously the relationship is different, nobody is arguing it isnt. |
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immoderate (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun May-08-05 11:04 AM Response to Reply #41 |
144. Can members of a family be treated like slaves? |
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Tomee450 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 08:11 PM Response to Reply #31 |
50. You are the one nitpicking. |
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bobbieinok (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun May-08-05 10:47 AM Response to Reply #31 |
142. 'bought and sold' DOES NOT mean 'one single difference' !!!!!!! |
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GodHelpUsAll2 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 09:21 PM Response to Reply #14 |
60. You knew slaves? |
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mark414 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 10:43 PM Response to Reply #60 |
63. well... |
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Protagoras (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 09:52 AM Response to Reply #60 |
89. sad how quickly absolute statements begin to |
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SaveElmer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 11:49 PM Response to Reply #14 |
71. "Black" Jack Custis... |
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Horse with no Name (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 12:03 AM Response to Reply #14 |
73. self delete |
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Tomee450 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 08:07 PM Response to Reply #11 |
49. And I also will |
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LynneSin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 12:21 PM Response to Reply #11 |
97. I have to agree with Solly on this one |
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SemperEadem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-09-05 11:48 AM Response to Reply #11 |
147. While there may have been a few families |
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SaveElmer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 11:44 PM Response to Reply #10 |
70. Depends on where they came from... |
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kwassa (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 01:23 PM Response to Reply #70 |
100. The slave is the master's property, with no familial or personal rights |
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SaveElmer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 01:48 PM Response to Reply #100 |
101. I am sorry but you are wrong in a couple of cases.... |
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kwassa (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 02:28 PM Response to Reply #101 |
105. you are talking about anomalies, at best, which creates the false idea |
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SaveElmer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 02:53 PM Response to Reply #105 |
107. Take a look at... |
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kwassa (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 03:17 PM Response to Reply #107 |
110. The point is that being treated differently is still not family treatment |
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SaveElmer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 03:21 PM Response to Reply #110 |
111. I didn't really claim they did... |
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kwassa (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 03:35 PM Response to Reply #111 |
112. Here is more about Washington's treatment of his slaves |
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SaveElmer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 03:40 PM Response to Reply #112 |
113. This is freaking me out...this is one of my professors |
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kwassa (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 06:17 PM Response to Reply #113 |
118. Joseph Ellis has a different take on Washington |
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SaveElmer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 06:52 PM Response to Reply #118 |
120. You are making my point for me... |
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kwassa (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat May-07-05 09:57 AM Response to Reply #120 |
131. Washington didn't free his slaves during his lifetime, or take a public |
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SaveElmer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat May-07-05 09:34 PM Response to Reply #131 |
132. If you lived in the 18th century... |
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SaveElmer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat May-07-05 10:25 PM Response to Reply #132 |
133. Test |
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nothingshocksmeanymore (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 06:42 PM Response to Reply #4 |
6. It's still a very euphamistic description that really doesn't belong on |
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K-W (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 06:44 PM Response to Reply #6 |
8. It isnt a euphamism, |
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nothingshocksmeanymore (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 06:47 PM Response to Reply #8 |
9. How many members of your family do you treat like you own? |
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K-W (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 06:51 PM Response to Reply #9 |
13. Look up the word euphamism |
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Solly Mack (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 06:56 PM Response to Reply #13 |
17. that's euphemism...for those who understand english :) |
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K-W (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 06:59 PM Response to Reply #17 |
19. ...thanks for calling attention to a spelling error |
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K-W (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 06:55 PM Response to Reply #9 |
15. By the way, wives have been slaves through much of history. |
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mark414 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 07:38 PM Response to Reply #15 |
35. if i may step in here for a moment |
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K-W (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 07:51 PM Response to Reply #35 |
40. You can disagree with the truth till you are blue in the face. |
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mark414 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 07:52 PM Response to Reply #40 |
42. dupe |
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mark414 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 07:54 PM Response to Reply #40 |
43. actually i did use both examples, separately |
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K-W (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 07:59 PM Response to Reply #43 |
47. I get it just fine. Where are you misreading me? |
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LynneSin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 12:28 PM Response to Reply #40 |
98. That's true - you could treat a non-relative like a member of the family.. |
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Kipepeo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 08:21 PM Response to Reply #35 |
52. Agreed |
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Protagoras (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 10:02 AM Response to Reply #9 |
91. Actually I work with a lot of families where |
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nothingshocksmeanymore (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 12:12 PM Response to Reply #91 |
95. I don't mind at all and I was challenging tha manner in which |
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Kipepeo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 07:02 PM Response to Reply #8 |
22. I don't think it's reasonable |
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K-W (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 07:12 PM Response to Reply #22 |
26. It is a comparison, it doesnt require an exact match. |
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Kipepeo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 07:33 PM Response to Reply #26 |
32. I know that |
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K-W (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 07:37 PM Response to Reply #32 |
33. Just because people take offense |
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Solly Mack (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 07:42 PM Response to Reply #33 |
36. you, of all people, are not seriously accusing anyone of "butchering" |
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K-W (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 07:55 PM Response to Reply #36 |
44. Nobody has said otherwise, that is purely your imagination. |
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Kipepeo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 07:43 PM Response to Reply #33 |
37. I am just as bad as Bush? |
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K-W (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 07:48 PM Response to Reply #37 |
39. Well, its the truth. |
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Horse with no Name (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 12:09 AM Response to Reply #32 |
74. Great point |
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nothingshocksmeanymore (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 08:34 PM Response to Reply #8 |
54. You don't have to overtly hate a person to regard them as NOT FREE |
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entanglement (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun May-08-05 09:30 AM Response to Reply #54 |
138. Shocked to see this guy defend slavery! |
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philosophie_en_rose (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun May-08-05 10:53 AM Response to Reply #54 |
143. Exactly! Consider pets being like "family." |
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Tomee450 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 07:57 PM Response to Reply #4 |
46. Oh baloney!! |
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K-W (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 08:01 PM Response to Reply #46 |
48. I never made excuses for slavery, so why are you replying to me? |
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Maru Kitteh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 08:14 PM Response to Reply #48 |
51. Only the very ignorant and the deliberately obtuse |
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LostinVA (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 04:05 PM Response to Reply #3 |
115. Some WERE treated very close to freed men and women |
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Abelman (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 08:42 PM Response to Reply #2 |
55. Well, I see now |
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Tomee450 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 09:03 PM Response to Reply #55 |
59. Jefferson was very |
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SaveElmer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 11:40 PM Response to Reply #2 |
69. Washington actually freed his slaves upon his death... |
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DulceDecorum (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 12:21 AM Response to Reply #69 |
79. Washington was also a pirate. |
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SaveElmer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 12:24 AM Response to Reply #79 |
80. A pirate ? |
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DulceDecorum (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 11:39 AM Response to Reply #80 |
93. Perhaps you are correct. |
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DulceDecorum (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 12:19 AM Response to Reply #2 |
77. Strom Thurmond had a black daughter |
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Kipepeo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 07:21 PM Response to Reply #1 |
29. I disagree with your last statement |
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KnowerOfLogic (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 07:28 PM Response to Reply #1 |
121. "Everybody was doing it" is no excuse, and everybody was *not* doing |
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UdoKier (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 06:50 PM Response to Original message |
12. Doesn't Jefferson get any points for creating American Democracy? |
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Cessna Invesco Palin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 06:55 PM Response to Original message |
16. I would like to point out... |
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Fountain79 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 07:00 PM Response to Original message |
20. Greyness of History |
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K-W (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 07:05 PM Response to Reply #20 |
24. Human's are attracted to dualism. |
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manic expression (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 07:14 PM Response to Reply #20 |
27. People who |
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Fountain79 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 10:06 PM Response to Reply #27 |
62. true, but.... |
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Tomee450 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 08:23 PM Response to Reply #20 |
53. I don't deny |
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komplex (135 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 10:45 PM Response to Reply #53 |
64. And without the writings of Jefferson... |
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Tomee450 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 11:52 PM Response to Reply #64 |
72. What are you talking about? |
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komplex (135 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 01:14 AM Response to Reply #72 |
84. The groundwork for the freedom of the slaves |
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Tomee450 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 02:49 PM Response to Reply #84 |
106. Nonsense |
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komplex (135 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 06:44 PM Response to Reply #106 |
119. So is it just Jefferson or |
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Tomee450 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 10:49 PM Response to Reply #119 |
128. Slavery was uniquely awful. |
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ComerPerro (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 07:01 PM Response to Original message |
21. Watch them rename it to George W Bush, or Ronald Reagan |
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sweetheart (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 07:22 PM Response to Original message |
30. Perhaps they should sell the brand to the highest bidder |
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Chovexani (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 08:44 PM Response to Reply #30 |
56. I know what they should change it to |
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Kipepeo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 08:48 PM Response to Reply #56 |
57. can we vote? |
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Hippo_Tron (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 08:54 PM Response to Original message |
58. Every president before Kennedy was a racist |
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SaveElmer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 12:11 AM Response to Reply #58 |
75. Careful of the term... |
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Gold Metal Flake (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 09:55 PM Response to Original message |
61. Here is a silly idea... |
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Tomee450 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 12:13 AM Response to Reply #61 |
76. Nonsense |
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SaveElmer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 12:20 AM Response to Reply #76 |
78. Jefferson was a hypocrite on the issue... |
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HamdenRice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 09:50 AM Response to Reply #78 |
88. You are wrong ... try reading history |
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SaveElmer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 10:00 AM Response to Reply #88 |
90. You are right in that I was not precise... |
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HamdenRice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 10:44 AM Response to Reply #90 |
92. Nothing to do with precision and everything to do with interpretation |
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SaveElmer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 12:13 PM Response to Reply #92 |
96. I wasn't commenting on the morality.... |
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HamdenRice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun May-08-05 07:58 AM Response to Reply #96 |
135. For MA in history, your grasp of historical logic is really disappointing |
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SaveElmer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun May-08-05 01:44 PM Response to Reply #135 |
145. Your willingness to ignore historical context t is disappointing |
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Tomee450 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 02:54 PM Response to Reply #88 |
108. Thank you |
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Gold Metal Flake (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 08:58 AM Response to Reply #76 |
85. You have records for these purchases? |
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mark414 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 09:43 PM Response to Reply #85 |
125. it's called a history book |
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expatriate (853 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 10:52 PM Response to Original message |
65. This is what bothers me. |
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Kipepeo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 11:09 PM Response to Reply #65 |
66. A family member of mine teaches |
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expatriate (853 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 11:29 PM Response to Reply #66 |
67. Yes, I've seen similar "re-enactments" at "historical" sites |
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Kipepeo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-05-05 11:39 PM Response to Reply #67 |
68. Sorry for not addressing the hero part of your previous post |
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Tomee450 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 12:26 AM Response to Reply #65 |
81. The students |
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HamdenRice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 09:41 AM Response to Reply #65 |
86. How about the Adolph Hitler Animal Shelter??? |
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sleipnir (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 12:29 AM Response to Original message |
82. Only in Berkeley would this happen! |
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SaveElmer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 12:36 AM Response to Reply #82 |
83. Yeah they are over the top on this one... |
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HamdenRice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 09:47 AM Response to Reply #82 |
87. Actually it was not a common act of the times ... |
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Ron Green (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 12:57 PM Response to Reply #87 |
99. "The ultimate hypocrite?" |
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HamdenRice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun May-08-05 08:06 AM Response to Reply #99 |
137. Slavery the natural state of mankind? |
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Mairead (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 01:51 PM Response to Reply #87 |
103. Yes, it is revisionism |
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HamdenRice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun May-08-05 08:04 AM Response to Reply #103 |
136. Time and place??? |
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SaveElmer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 02:14 PM Response to Reply #87 |
104. You can't help judging people can you... |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun May-08-05 10:25 AM Response to Reply #82 |
139. Deleted message |
dogday (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 11:42 AM Response to Original message |
94. All I know is................. |
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theboss (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 01:49 PM Response to Original message |
102. Fuckin' Berkeley |
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Tierra_y_Libertad (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 03:15 PM Response to Original message |
109. Good for them. "Leaders" should always be questioned. |
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LostinVA (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 04:02 PM Response to Original message |
114. Sequoia a tree??? It was also the name of a Cherokee |
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Arkana (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 04:09 PM Response to Original message |
116. A lot of great men in American history owned slaves |
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KnowerOfLogic (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 07:34 PM Response to Reply #116 |
122. Who is or isn't great is a matter of opinion. nt |
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mark414 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 09:46 PM Response to Reply #116 |
126. i don't want to be picky |
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deadparrot (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 04:24 PM Response to Original message |
117. Using that logic, we'd have to change a lot of names. |
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Zomby Woof (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 07:45 PM Response to Original message |
123. The framers were complicated, 3-dimensional... |
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JohnLocke (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 08:28 PM Response to Original message |
124. Good grief, people! |
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Tomee450 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 10:57 PM Response to Reply #124 |
129. Not only that Jefferson |
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QC (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 10:59 PM Response to Reply #124 |
130. But he's not good enough for the People's Republic of Berkeley. n/t |
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politicat (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-06-05 10:29 PM Response to Original message |
127. I wish they wouldn't rename it.... Kids need flawed heroes, not gods. |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun May-08-05 10:44 AM Response to Reply #127 |
141. Deleted message |
lumpy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun May-08-05 01:27 AM Response to Original message |
134. This is ludicrous |
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Darranar (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun May-08-05 10:29 AM Response to Reply #134 |
140. So what if they had ancestors who were slave owners? |
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kwassa (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun May-08-05 07:40 PM Response to Reply #134 |
146. I would "dishonor" such an ancestor |
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DU AdBot (1000+ posts) | Sat Jun 15th 2024, 05:19 PM Response to Original message |
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