Reply #81: i understand where you are coming from

[Caution]

As is usually the case in political discussions, those who are informed about the issues tend to be the most locked into their viewpoint and the least likely to be swayed by argument so you are not going to change my mind, I'm not going to change yours and this is the very reason that Kerry is forced to move to the Center in order to sway the votes of those who really don't know what's really happening here and can't see past their wallets.

I'm not willing to abandon the Democratic Party just yet and frankly i think that we are closer to totalitarianism than most do. I'm in general not a big :tinfoilhat: guy. (my other posts will bear that out and in fact i typically hit ignore on anyone who is actively promoting MIHOP and whatnot). However I have made extensive studies of verious totalitarian governments and I think we are not far off. All Bush needs is an excuse and he'll cancel elections. Once that happens all bets are off.

While I agree with much of what you say about the Iraq war, the fact is that we live in a world where to go against W at that time was to court political disaster. I am an idealist but I'm also a pragmatist and I recognize the need for those who are politicians to sometimes do things that aren't necessarily what they may want to do.

My whole point in this fruitless exercise is that time is far too short to think that we can revolutionize the political process without opening the door for W to really destroy the whole thing.

Do you honestly believe that some how you are going to send a message to the powers that be? Local activism, local elected officials are the only way to accomplish that. The national stage is too big at this point. It took nearly 150 years for the American Revolution to get off the ground and this was in a time when distractions like television, sports, film, etc weren't constant. Only through building a party locally can this possibly be accomplished. The Green Party has moved too fast. They are guilty of the same thing many businesses are guilty of which is overextending themselves. You can't build a party from the top down.

What you are advocating is exceedingly difficult. How do you do it? What I want from you are action items. You have given me nothing other than vague generalities to work with, i have argued from the standpoint of the status quo. I want to work in the system you want to abolish the system. Well give me incentive and methodology to do it. I think that if I were to follow your path i would be frustrated by seeing things continually get much much worse because my enemies have greater resources. My best friend voted for Nader in 2000, i voted for Gore, I pleaded with him about it, I told him the poor would get poorer, the rich richer and that his best efforts would go for naught. Instead he claimed "principle." What did his principles accomplish? Is it better to stand by your principles when the need is great? Or is it better to sacrifice a part of your principle (even if it is 80%) in order that it not be 100%? The same guy is going to vote for Nader again. He was hoping for Dean. I liked Dean too, but Dean's issue stances were to the right of Kerry and I'll take the leftist every time.

We are probably much more alike politically than you know, but I seriously doubt you have taken anywhere near the path I have to get where I am today and I am unwilling to allow this bastard in the White House to take it all away from me and if that means electing someone who isn't the ideal candidate to ensure that the process is slowed than so be it, and having met John Kerry on a couple of occasions, i have little doubt that his intentions are good and I'm willing to say, hmmm I'd rather have Kucinich or Sharpton or Braun, but I'd much rather NOT have Bush.

For the record, I can't friggin stand Ralph Nader. And yes I've read his books and I've read his speeches and I still can't stand the man.