Reply #34: Wow -- good question, and an important one.

[Eloriel]

As a former recipient of spousal abuse, I definitely know that verbal abuse is part of it. So many people still have the notion....... "Oh, just let it roll off your back", "Don't pay any attention to it", etc etc etc. I could get really riled up here, because verbal abuse is damaging, and that includes verbal abuse of parents with children, verbal abuse of teachers and children, verbal abuse of medical staff against patients, verbal abuse of spouse against spouse, verbal abuse of boss against employee, and on and on and on.

You are absolutely 100% correct, and that's a very good list.

You are adamant about NOT accepting verbal abuse, and I completely concur. So, I will ask you...... when in any of those circumstances, and any others you think of, should one just accept it? Where does one draw the line? When is verbal abuse to one not be verbal abuse to another?

Boundaries are so very important...... I think that all of us who have endured physical or emotional abuse are well aware of protecting our boundaries. But we live in a society that loves to tell us that we're "being too sensitive" if we draw our boundaries, and protect them.

Again, your identifying this as an issue about "boundaries" is absolutely right on.

I have to say I'm no expert in this area. What little I know about boundaries, I've learned the long and hard way and it's something that takes practice, actually. LOL, I remember reading a really good book about boundaries (that everyone has the right to define and protect his or her own personal boundaries) and my reaction was, "Wow. Boundaries! What a concept. You mean I can HAVE some?"

In a nutshell, when people are insulting and abusive, that's a boundary violation. We each have the right (and responsibility, actually) to define what our boundaries are and to let others know when they're bouncing up against or have crossed our personal boundaries. Some people have more lax boundaries than others. I HATE it when people help themselves to any of my stuff, even to just borrow it, without asking. Some people don't mind at all. Both are OKAY.

Some people have more lax boundaries around sexual issues -- which makes the term "loose woman" all the more interesting (I'm avoiding the whole issue of sexism in this discussion). Most, not all, of our personal boundaries are created in the families we grew up in. If privacy wasn't a big thing in your family, your personal boundaries about privacy may be more lax than others' and you may have problems with people for whom privacy is a bigger issue. But that's why you sometimes have to define and defend your own boundaries for others.

MOST of us don't WANT to violate others' boundaries -- but, as I said, sometimes they need coaching on what our boundaries are so that they can be respectful of our boundaries (even if they don't understand them).

But there are those whoa re delighted to violate others' boundaries. In fact, they almost live for it. They can subjugate others by doing so, especially when they find people who aren't good at defining and defending their own boundaries.

This is what happens so often in sexual harassment situations in the workplace. It starts small -- a little innuendo here, a dirty joke or leer there, and if those boundaries don't get vigorously defined and defended, the sexual harrasser knows he has a virtual green light to go further.

"You're being too sensitive," and "whatsamatter, honey, cantcha take a joke" and "I didn't mean anything by it," along with any number of similar dismissive and often shaming remarks are all designed to break down what little remaining ability to define/defend boundaries the victim has.

I don't really have an answer to your question, because everyone has to figure out for themselves where their boundaries are AND when and how to defend them (and it's also true that healthy boundaries are flexible -- you can often be a little more relaxed with good friends or family than with co-workers, for example).

I would say, off the top of my head, that wherever there's a chance for power imbalance between the parties it becomes all the more important for the one with lesser power (or lesser potential power) to be assertive on the matter -- again, it will ONLY get worse, and that's a promise.

Where eintimate relationships are concerned, however, I would be a hawk on the subject. I've fortunately never been in a romantic relationship where there was any abuse whatsoever, but knowing what I know about the matter, if anyone I was dating gave me even a crosswise look I'd clamp down very quickly and VERY firmly.

Thinking back, I have to say that when I was very young (20 and under) I did have a couple of relationships that weren't all that mutually beneficial -- the couple of young men I'm thinking of liked to play coy and indifferent and make me work a little harder at the relationship than they did. In a sense, this is one type of indicator. These types of people are emotionally manipulative, and that goes hand in hand with emotional abuse (when they can get far enough along in the relationship to get away with it). I didn't let them get far enough along. I was pretty serious about one of the guys for a while, but finally "got it" that it just wasn't that reciprocal a relationship and I got REALLY tired of being the one doing all the work. Some men, though, do their thing with a lot more ardor, so they are just as manipulative but from a completely different direction. (Just sorta thinking aloud here....not sure my personal reminiscences add anything to the discussion.)

My first marriage was not all that reciprocal either. THAT experience helped me realize, tho, that a "not all that good" a marriage or relationship is worse than none at all (tho I also realize it's possible to have "companion" relationships that are never going to be "forever" but are satisfying and serve a purpose for both parties for a while). I think that "bad is worse than none" realization isn't something all women get, and certainly fewer start out with. We need to make sure to raise our daughters with very strong sense of self, self-confidence, and preferrably lots of practice in defining and defending their own boundaries (so respecting their boundaries as kids is a good start).

Okay, enough rambling. I'd like to hear others' thoughts.