Reply #14: guess who doesn't care whether you agree with anything?

[iverglas]

Or whether you think anyone is overreacting to anything, or about much of anything else you think/say/feel blah blah.

You may not have noticed, but this isn't about you.

But I don't see how these kids (or teachers) were actually discriminated against because they attended a cultural event about Christmas. How were these people discriminated against? Did they get lower grades? Were they required to sign some oath of loyalty to one religion or another? No, they learned a little about an Hispanic custom and sang some songs.

Yup. And people of colour got seats on the buses. Not the seats they wanted, maybe, but why would you care? The real question being, of course: why would they care whether you care?

Like I said: you might want to learn a little about the nature of equality rights in the 21st century ... or even the 20th. This is not about "religious liberty" -- no one is proposing that someone else be deprived of any right or freedom because of his/her religion, or prohibited from practising a religion or compelled to practice a religion on pain of punishment by the state for non-compliance -- it is about DISCRIMINATION in the provision of a service to which all children, in this case, are entitled. The "establishment clause" HAS NOTHING TO DO with the right not to be discriminated against on the basis of religion, which I would really assume is to be found somewhere in the laws of the state where this event occurred, or whatever legislation the school is funded under.

Texas it seems. Hmm. George W Bush seems to have had some ideas in this regard during his tenure:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1568/is_3_31/ai_55015497

Here's another fun Texas one:
http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2003/April/03_crt_247.htm

The Justice Department today announced that it was closing its inquiry into complaints by Texas Tech students that a biology professor's medical school recommendation policy, which required affirmation of a personal belief in evolution, constituted religious discrimination. The decision was based on the professor's replacement of the affirmation requirement with a requirement that students simply be able to explain the scientific theory of evolution.

The Justice Department received complaints alleging that Professor Michael Dini had discriminated, based on religion, against several students through his written recommendation policy. The policy, set forth on a Texas Tech website, stated that to receive a medical school recommendation, the student had to meet three criteria. These were to get an "A" grade in one of Professor Dini's courses, get to know him personally through working as a teaching assistant or extracurricular activities, and "truthfully and forthrightly affirm a scientific answer" to the question: "How do you think the human species originated?"

Children *are* forced to attend school, essentially -- and even if they weren't, the schools are a public service, paid for by the public, to which all children are entitled to equal access and where they are entitled to equal treatment without distinction based on, e.g., religion.

Children *are* entitled not to be treated differently in the public schools on the basis of their religion (or lack of religion).

A child whose religious beliefs (or lack of religious beliefs) require that s/he *not* participate in other people's religious practices is entitled not to be treated differently if s/he chooses to act in accordance with those beliefs in the schools. A child who must withdraw from a school-sponsored event during school hours in order to act in accordance with his/her religious beliefs, i.e. not to participate in someone else's religious practices, IS being discriminated against. A child whose religious beliefs are disregarded, while other children's religious beliefs are recognized and given expression in the school, IS being discriminated against.

(Please recall that I chose to express no opinion about whether, in THIS instance, the religion in question was being taught or taught about, and that I was addressing what YOU said, which plainly applied without such distinctions.)

This is true whether or not there are any measurable effects resulting from the child's withdrawal (or non-withdrawal) from the event. And if you don't think that children notice such things, and use them as weapons against other children, you're just trying too hard to pretend that the world is what it isn't.

It simply is not up to you to decide that no one is injured by being compelled to participate in someone else's religious practices, any more than it is up to you to decide whether someone is injured by being compelled to sit at the back of the bus. It just isn't about you.

Here's a teeny primer for you:
http://sitemaker.umich.edu/hwaters/discrepancies_with_religion_in_schools

Oh look; Bill Clinton got into the act:
http://www.adherents.com/misc/fed_guidelines.html

... # Teachers and administrators are prohibited from either encouraging or discouraging religious activity and from participating in such activity with students.

# Public schools may not provide religious instruction but may teach about religion. ...

And there's nothing like a case in point:
http://www.mormonstoday.com/000625/N1SchoolPrayer02.shtml

The case was originally filed in 1995, in response to the way that the Mormon family, and a Catholic family that joined them in the suit, were treated by teachers and other students in the school district. Both families felt that their children had been discriminated against and harassed for belonging to a minority religion in the majority Southern Baptist town, according to Mormon News' analysis of news reports and contacts with those involved in the case.

Both families experienced a pattern of teachers and students promoting their religion at school. One junior high school teacher passed out fliers for a Baptist revival in class. Invitations to religious camps and other religious materials were handed out in the classroom. Teachers included denominational religious teachings in their lessons. Bibles were distributed in the schools by the Gideons. At lunch time, students were told to bow their heads and pray before eating.

The families soon discovered that religion was included in the school system's policies. ...

I'm sure you'll get it if you stop trying so hard not to.