Reply #156: Seems some folks don't like "argument," & if you're one of them, read no further.

[Hannah Bell]

I posted this thread to wrestle with the idea of profit, it interests me because there's a contradiction at the core of it. If you're not up for discussion, just ignore what follows...


My thoughts on your post:

Agree resources + labor can = storable surplus; we can call it "profit."


<<what is the proportional share is a matter of negotiation>>

To a point: but the higher the proportion of land, resources, tools, & plant owned by the owners in the system, the less bargaining power the non-owning labor has in most cases.

What's certain, though, is that if *anything* is owned, the workers can't buy everything they produce with their wages, unless the owner is willing to forgo all payment for what he owns & lose money.


If the Chelsea Club is losing money, it means the owner has lots to lose, maybe spending income from other ventures, or savings - tranferring part of his past/present income stream to his workers. I don't see new profit in the system as a whole from this transfer.

{A sporting event is kind of an odd business too - doesn't produce a storable material product, & mostly labor cost...I'm not seeing the surplus this business produces...it's kind of like you put the workers on the production line & watch them run it, but they don't make material product...thinking out loud...}


The starting conditions, where some own resources & others don't, is why those that don't are willing to work for those who do. & though profit isn't guaranteed for every owner in the system, I think it's *guaranteed* in the system as a whole for owners as a group, under most conditions:

In my original example, 2 firms invest $100 each, 40 widgets @ $5 cost, workers have $170:

ALL the widgets can't be sold, & BOTH the owners can't make a profit. But ONE of the owners can, if most of the workers buy HIS widgets, i.e. $101 worth.


If you got this far, thanks for taking the question seriously, hope you don't mind the *argument*. To my mind, it's discussion, not argument, but since I've been repeatedly chastised...