GM stock plunges as products slip behind(here comes the depression, kids!)

[Tyler Durden]

http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/gm17e_20050317.htm

U.S. automaker cuts financial outlook, expects 1st-quarter loss

March 17, 2005

BY JAMIE BUTTERS
FREE PRESS BUSINESS WRITER

General Motors Corp.'s latest efforts to fix its crucial North American car and truck
business have been pummeled again by competitors with hotter brands.

That's why the automaker announced Wednesday that it
expects to lose money in the first quarter -- and the
reason its stock fell to its lowest level in more than eight
years.
(snip)
With GM's U.S. market share falling to 25.1 percent
through the first two months of the year, the world's
largest automaker has cut its financial outlook, and
investors see its future in the bleakest terms in almost a
decade.

(snip)


I was a Quality Manager at a HUGE Automotive Supplier in 1977. In December '77/January '78, we watched as similar circumstances as those today were at work. The only Difference was that President Carter tried like HELL to stop the oncoming disaster, while Bush seems to want it to happen.

Everyone ready for the DEPRESSION? I figure we have less than a year.

[nolabels]

1. GM sucks and always has, this just seems very par for course to me

They have took a lot of money out of their automotive line and diversified into financial and stuff. The GM corporation is probably sheltering a lot of their profits and income in overseas markets also. I mostly would take their B.S. with a grain a salt.

[MARALE]

19. Agreed, when they say things like this

http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050311/ZNYT01/503110402/1001/business

...
Both G.M. and Ford Motor have made huge bets on sales of large sport utilities and pickup trucks in the United States, a wager that some analysts say is at risk as gas prices rise. G.M. has upped the ante by creating a new brand around Hummer, the least fuel-efficient brand in the industry. Still, G.M. executives say their fortunes will improve considerably in 2006 and 2007 as a new generation of large sport utility vehicles and large pickup trucks hits the market.
...

Dumb, Dumber-this isn't working, so lets build bigger gas guzzlers!:eyes: :eyes:

[nolabels]

38. They along with the rest of corporate America are under the same.....

Delusions if you ask me. I have been working on diesel trucks for the last 28 years and have seen how industry has become way more efficient with the use of fuels for their transportion while at the same time trying to sell the everyday citizen-consumer the opposite. They profit from producing junk that is inefficient, needs frequent repairs and or replaced often. These folks that produce this stuff have no desire to save anybody any expense (if they can get away with it). Competition is nothing if you have got a captive market(or one that thinks it's captive).

If I ever had to buy another passenger vehicle it would be a Hybrid fuel efficient Toyota.

Hybrid buyers are waiting in the wings
Environmentally conscious line up to buy most fuel-efficient cars

George Raine, Chronicle Staff Writer

Wednesday, April 21, 2004

Sisters Patricia Ryan (left), and Charleen Koenig, of the... A Look Inside a Hybrid Car. New York Times Graphic Bob Epstein, the founder of Sybase, is an environmentalis... Bob Epstein bought a 2001 Prius and then a 2004 Prius.
(snip)

Fueled in part by growing concerns about gas prices and worldwide oil production, along with increased sensitivity to environmental issues, sales of hybrid automobiles nationwide are on pace to nearly double this year.

Apparently, some folks in the auto industry didn't get that memo. Honda and Toyota are about to get some serious competition for the hybrid dollar, including a number of SUV models, from the likes of Ford, Mercury, Chevrolet, Dodge and even Toyota's Lexus Division.

Up to 30 hybrid models are expected on the market by 2009. With gas prices spiking nationwide, it's not surprising that cars that get more than 60 miles per gallon are getting a second look from once-lukewarm consumers. And nowhere is that interest more acute than in the Bay Area, where the perfect storm of environmentally conscious consumers and sky-high gas prices have made the hybrid a hot commodity.

The mantra at dealerships like Toyota of San Francisco, which leads in hybrid sales among 63 Northern California Toyota dealerships (hybrids now represent 20 to 25 percent of its total sales), is that the technology has crossed into the mainstream of consumer consciousness. "That's why there is such a demand for the car,'' said Russ Mobley, who heads new car sales at the dealership and must tell all those Prius buyers about the three- to four-month wait.
(snip)
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/04/21/MNGC468FFU1.DTL

btw, we are still waiting for the competition, i think

Check this excerpt about how corporate transportation industry is doing, if you read the whole article you will notice how the US goverment bends over backwards to help the corporations (and at the same time they saying F.U to Joe Public)

Puget Sound Launches Major Air Pollution Reduction Effort Using Clean Diesel Technologies
(snip)
"Since 1988, diesel engine emissions have been reduced by 90 percent, and by 2007 that reduction will total 98 percent, " said Schaeffer. " The Forum's members are leaders in the development of clean diesel technologies, which include the three-faceted system of cleaner engines, cleaner fuels and advanced emissions catalysts and filters."

Dr. Alan Lloyd, Chairman of California's Air Resources Board, recently predicted these advances will create "the decade of the clean diesel."

"The diesel engine has tremendous value," said Schaeffer, "because the chemical structure of the fuel delivers more power per unit than any other type of fuel, including gasoline or compressed natural gas, and therefore provides superior fuel efficiency."

For example, diesel powers 94 percent of all freight moved in the U.S. and 60 percent of all buses and agricultural equipment and nearly all freight rail transport, and heavy construction machinery, according to a study done by Charles Rivers and Associates. Diesel is also 30-60 percent more fuel-efficient than gasoline, reducing the consumption of petroleum fuels significantly.
(snip)
http://www.dieselforum.org/news/july_10_2001.html

[trogdor]

49. I heart diesel

Unfortunately, whiny-ass American drivers (led by loudmouths like Rush Limpnuts) will piss and moan. Transition to diesel will require some hand-holding.

[nolabels]

55. I think the big demand for it is already in the works regardless of what..

the marketeers say or want to do. Just wait till gasoline gets to be about five dollars a gallon. It would be even better if they (the manufactures) could gear up mass transportation to the technology of today on a wider scale for us suburban and city folks(sorry for dreaming)

Even like just for buses to start out with. I would much rather be able to converse with my Friend, read a book or just look out the window than the alternative of fighting for road space with some Kamikaze driver around me


June 03, 2004
Diesel Hybrid Electric Cars Now!
Plausibly Surreal – Scenarios and Anticipations

How come nobody sells a hybrid diesel car?

For those of you familiar only with the sooty smoke belching from older big-rig trucks or the foul smells from 1970s diesel cars, the question may come as a surprise. But modern diesel engine design coupled with the much-cleaner types of diesel fuel increasingly available (particularly "biodiesel") make diesel vehicles a surprisingly environmentally-friendly choice. Diesel-hybrid-electrics would be an obvious positive development. So why don't we see them?

I suppose the answer varies depending upon where you are. In the US, the diesel fuel available in most locations remains the old, dirty, high-sulfur variety, so a hybrid diesel actually wouldn't be a significant improvement in emissions; once low-sulfur regulations take effect in 2006, this may change. In Europe, where advanced-technology "clean" diesel autos are one-third to one-half of the auto market and growing, some diesel cars already get mileage roughly equivalent to hybrids, so I suspect there's simply less demand.

The irony is that diesel hybrids could be far more efficient and clean than anything now on the market, without any leaps in technology. The combination of modern clean diesel engines, Prius-style serial hybrid-electric systems, and biodiesel/vegetable oil fuels could provide amazing mileage, cleaner air, and vastly reduced petroleum dependency. Comfortable, powerful sedans could get upwards of 80 miles per gallon and be carbon-neutral.

(More in the extended entry...)

It's certainly not that diesel hybrids are somehow impossible. Diesel-electric hybrid buses are available and have been rolled out in (among other places) Seattle, Washington and Apeldoorn, in the Netherlands. As for autos, Ford, GM, and Daimler-Chrysler each built prototype diesel hybrids a few years ago which got mileage in the 70-80 mpg range. But the automakers opted not to produce them, as the cars couldn't meet strict air pollution rules while running on the sulfur-laden American diesel.
(snip)
http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/000791.html

[trogdor]

59. That would rock!

Can you say 80 MPG? I guess now that US diesel is now low-sulphur, there's no excuse to produce diesel hybrids, is there?

[pstokely]

110. they don't like the smell

nt

[Coastie for Truth]

101. GM filed a frivolous, vexatious patent law suit against Toyota

on the use of Hydride Batteries (1992? 1993?). Before the case came to trial GM and Toyota settled. As part of the settlement GM was given a royalty free license to use Toyota Hybrid EV and pure EV technology.

Under the Hybrid and EV license with their previous NUMMI agreement (Corolla-Nova, Corolla-Prism, Vibe-Matrix) GM can put GM branding on Priuses and RAV4 EVs and sell them through GM dealership (just like with Prisms and the Vibe-Matrix).

Has GM taken advantage of this - just to buy time?

To ask the question is to answer it. Dumb! Dumb! Dumb!

[screembloodymurder]

69. They are all motor heads.

Bigger, faster more power that's all they know. The only way next generation will sell is if ther're hybrids.

[piece sine]

96. Bummer

about the Hummer, man.

[denverbill]

2. People are too dumb to remember history.

I was around during the late 70's and remember very well the oil shock. I remember very well how Detroit fu*ked up by producing nothing but gas-guzzling behemoths when everybody and his mother wanted high-mileage vehicles. Then the big 4 wised up and started producing small cars, but the ones they produced were pathetic pieces of crap like the Vega, Pinto, and Pacer. Then the Big 4 whined and moaned about foreign competition because they started losing market share bigtime.

Here we are 3 decades later and the Big 3 now are producing nothing but gas-guzzlers during a time of rapidly rising oil prices. And guess what? Their profits are falling. Who'd of thunk it?

[The White Tree]

7. Hey I had a Pinto in college, I loved it.

There was nothing like the thrill of driving a car that could explode at any second.

Just kidding, it actually was a very reliable car for me, but it was my step fathers before it was mine and he babied it. It was actually a Pinto Pony not the ugly hatchback one. I don't think those ever had any problems with the fuel tank.

[denverbill]

11. Well, I had a 1977 Vega.

By about 1984, the floorboard had rusted through and I could actually see the ground moving beneath the car. I had to hoist the driver's side door up in order to get it to latch properly. It burned a quart of oil per fill-up of gas.

Hard to believe I've never owned another Chevy huh?

[KansDem]

60. Vega? Vega? I think I remember test driving a Vega in the 1970s

Didn't it have an aluminum block?

I remember the stick shift shaking erratically during my test drive. I remember feeling like I was in one of those paint-mixing machines you see at the hardware store..

I remember thinking I couldn't get back to the carlot fast enough.

Was that the Vega?

[karlrschneider]

64. LOL...my buddy had a Vega ('75 or so I guess), we were coming back

from a short trip one day and the engine literally melted. I am not kidding. We were pretty stoned and just sat there laughing hysterically for about half an hour. Finally managed to settle down & flag a car to call a tow truck. I still giggle thinking about it. :D

[DancingBear]

84. Oh, I can tell Vega sories...

Lordstown, Ohio - 1974 - Vega assembly line.

I KNOW why those cars were as bad as they were - trust me. :)

[zann725]

92. I bought one 'lemon yellow' about 2 months before the Consumer Reports

began panning them. Then I couldn't unload it on anyone! I've always had that luck with carssss.

[Horse with no Name]

120. lol this made me laugh

Made me think of a joke...

How do you double the value of a Yugo?
.
.

.
.
.
.
Fill it up with gas,lol. I hope I'm not the only one who thinks this was funny.

[sidpleasant]

70. Many cars have aluminum engine blocks

Top fuel dragsters have aluminum engine blocks and they make 8000 horsepower from a mere 500 cubic inch engine. There's nothing inherently wrong with aluminum engine blocks. It's all about the execution and engineering.

[Ezlivin]

113. How long do top fuel engines last?

IIRC they are called "dixie cup" engines because they were like "use once and throw away".

Ceramic is where it's at, anyway.

[happyslug]

86. Sounds like a Vega

n/t

[Carni]

82. OMG I had a Vega wagon

I didn't buy it...

I was a kid in highschool and I was given an old lemon yellow wagon with a black vinyl interior as a ride from my parents

(guess I shouldn't complain)

BUT WHAT A PIECE OF SHIT!

Neither door worked so usually I had to climb in and out of the windows!

[Carni]

83. YES! Denver Bill!

We are kindred souls--my Vega doors were screwed up too! lol
(Ever climb out of a window of a Vega in a skirt and high heels?)

[Mary in KC]

12. I love the exploading part

I had a friend with an old GM car and she drove around with a fire extenguisher in the back - she expected it to burst into flame at any moment.

I think it was GM - I know it was an old American made.

[proud_dem]

66. I had a '77 vega .....

and it was a good little car, I was side-swiped by a Pontiac Lemans and it not only didn't explode or catch fire, I came out of it with out a scratch.
It had more of a steel body then the cars made today !

[okieinpain]

20. hahahahaha!!!! funny.....

[LiberallyInclined]

16. during the 80's, i owned 5 different Pacers....they ROCKED!

and now I have a VW New Beetle, which has the same kind of big car roominess in a small package.

if you never owned a pacer, don't knock 'em.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

24. I was pumping gas outside DC during the summer of the "oil shock"....

...and it got pretty ugly at times. Long lines, frustrated drivers, and the heat of the humid summer around DC can make for a bad combination.

In Virginia we had a form of rationing...cars with even numbered plates could get gas on certain days, and those with odd numbered plates got to get gas on the other days.

I ws very happy to return to college at the end of that summer.

[RaleighNCDUer]

27. Let's not forget the locking gas caps. Any unsecured gas cap

meant that you were buying gas for the first guy to come along with 3 feet of hose.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

32. LOL!! No kidding! Those were the days, weren't they?....

...looks like what's coming is going to be a lot uglier.

[RaleighNCDUer]

25. The shortsighted product development of the big 3 in the '70s

was directly responsible for the rise of the Japanese auto industry. Their own actions turned the market over to their competitors.

They're doing it again.

[porkrind]

91. Lean Production is what made Japanese cars better.

Developed by Toyota. US companies were blown away by much better products.

[Horse with no Name]

119. Ahhh the memories....

I remember putting 22 softball players in a Maverick (remember how small those were?)
and I remember a lady pulling up in a lime green Pacer with a racing stripe. When she got out of her car, she was shaped EXACTLY like the Pacer,lol.
And I am not kidding one bit.:)

[clem_c_rock]

3. I don't see how it can be avoided.

Perpetual war, 2 insane deficits, and an administration that pushes us faster into the bowels of hell everyday.

My only happiness is most of the rednecks who voted for Bush will be the first to eat shit.

[Massachusetts]

4. "I don't see how it can be avoided."

Remember the Rethugs have Ahnold as their secret weapon.

The Deficitnator Returns:bounce: Let the games begin.

[FreeStateDemocrat]

5. Amen and praise the Lord, brother!

I live in redneck heaven and they will never figure it out even when standing in the soup line! It will always be Clinton’s fault.

[jmcgowanjm]

10. American crowds can no more pull back from their dream

than Hitler could pull Von Paulus' Army out of
Stalingrad.

Americans cannot turn back from the promise of something
for
nothing. To do so would
contradict every theory/myth that they have come
to
loveand force them to admit that they had been wrong.

William Bonner-the Daily Reckoning

http://www.brentrasmussen.com/

[Seabiscuit]

56. They're already eating shit yet they obeyed their Pastors and voted for *

[Jackpine Radical]

6. Well, look at the bright side.

There's a lot of scrap metal in a Hummer. After the coming Big Crash you'll be able to beat them into spearheads and other useful artifacts.

[clem_c_rock]

8. I'm ready to put my loincloth on

And hunt redneck's w/ spear, club, and arrow.

[Nickster]

9. Thanks, I needed the chuckle. LOL

[VirginiaDem]

78. As much as I am opposed to the negativity and pessimism around

here, your post made me laugh out loud, and I almost always keep it inside. So I guess that's a good thing.

[jmcgowanjm]

13. As GM goes, so goes the country was the saying.

One in seven work in the automotive industry.

China now has something much better than a weapon of war
to use on us. Their leverage is perfectly elastic and
completely acceptable to the rest of the world, much of which
is furious at us anyway; they can slow down on buying
new bonds, stop buying new bonds, dump a few that they
have, or sell them in great quantity, or just threaten to do any
of the above. And unlike the traditional saber rattling or
small bombing run to underscore the Chinese interests du
juor, there's no messy, consequent, military drawbacks to
such actions at all. It's like the ideal variable potentiometer;
they can turn the volume up or down to any level they
wish.

http://www.brentrasmussen.com/

Why mention China? The suits in DC/NYC know
that the only way we got out of Depression
was Pearl Harbor. It is no coincidence
that Peakoil and GM's demise are
happening simultaneously.

[VirginiaDem]

79. Why would China risk blowing such a good deal then by

ruining our economy? There are some that have said other nations could pick up the slack and buy their goods but I seriously doubt the Chinese economy would stay on such a rosy course if the US economy collapsed. And even if the Chinese could survive the implosion of the US economy, they are artificially pegged at an undervalued rate to the dollar. They can only let the yuan fall so far until they unpeg from the dollar and then what do they do? I suppose they could peg to the Euro at an artificially low rate but the Europeans actually have a very solid track record at bullishly pursuing their self interests. They won't put up with that artificial peg crap half as long as we have.

China's star is on the rise so their best case scenario involves stability not revolution.

[jmcgowanjm]

100. yes, but the best case scenario for China is not the same for the US

because China can also use it's US currency to
buy up raw materials thruout the world
and even the US crown jewels,
like Lenovo from IBM and
Unocal.

And what happens when push comes
to shove on Taiwan. China gets out its potentiometer
and turns up the volume.
Better than nukes, which are really worthless.

[DELUSIONAL]

14. I wouldn't buy one of their cars -- piece of crap cars & trucks

When you can get better value for your money from other companies . . . . why buy crap?

They don't seem responsive to the consumer -- and when they sell a lemon they don't make good on their errors. Obviously they didn't want me as a repeat customer.

[Tyler Durden]

15. You're missing the point.

Of course they make shit. EVERYONE including the Japanese make shit.

I should know: I work for an Automotive Supplier, and we supply EVERYONE including Toyota, Nissan, Jaguar, Daimler, YOU NAME IT.

We do everything except physically shit and piss in the plastic, and the only reason we don't do that is that the moisture would screw up the molding and cost US money. Sawdust is not a big problem, though, as is any shithole supplier of resin. We tell the auto companies we're going to use PREMIUM raw materials. Then we pretend to do it, and they pretend to believe it.

That's STILL not the point. The only way us "serfs" are going to keep going to SAFEWAY and feeding the kids is if things stay in one piece, and they AREN'T. It's only a matter of time.

That, or the Bird Flu: take your pick. Either way, this way of life is on borrowed time.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

17. Honda's, Toyota's, and Mazda's are NOT "shit".

:eyes:

They are better than the American Brands.

[okieinpain]

21. no kidding. I've got a dodge ram 1500, with a v6. I get the benefit

of a large body (which my fat ass really appreciates), but I'm getting 20 on the highway, and about 18 in the city. I put in forty bucks on monday, and I've been making it to sundays if I don't travel around too much. I have a 60 mile round trip commute for work. so I've been doing good so far with the high gas prices.

[CottonBear]

23. I've got a 1993 Dodge Dakota with the V-6.

It's my farm and camping truck. I really like it. It gets pretty good gas mileage. We also have a 1993 Corolla and (get this) a 1978 Datsun pick up! That little truck is bright blue with lots of rust. It is extra cute and gets awesome gas mileage!

[jayfish]

40. If It's The 3.5l V-6...

they really are good motors. Adequate power and very good gas-mileage. I have one in my 1995 LHS. If I keep it at 70, going back and forth to work, I get around 30MPG. That's all highway though. With city and highway I average 19-22 MPG. And it's a 4000lb car. I just wish tier transmissions were nearly as good.

Jay

[CottonBear]

44. Ouch! I had to get a new clutch and 4x4 differential!

That hurt my wallet! I'm hope going to be driving my truck for a long time! I bought it used for just $4,000, so I expected to make a few repairs.

[jayfish]

54. I Don't Think They...

use that tranny (a704) in 4x4s. I could be wrong though. I will tell you that I don't know anyone who hasn't had to have theirs replaced. Including two of my own on two different cars.

Jay

[xxqqqzme]

51. we had a light blue

Datsun pick-up that was a workhorse on our little farm wannabe. I loved that little truck. The mileage was fantastic. We had it until our son was born in '76. 4 didn't fit in the front. My former spouse went out
'n bought a 3/4 ton Dodge that guzzeled gas. It also knew I hated it. The transmission literally dropped out when it was 6 months old. Last,'n only, US manufacturer vehicle I have ever owned.

[CottonBear]

72. I love those little Datsuns!

Remember the "first small truck sold in America...dogs love trucks" ad that was on TV? I would love to have the Overhaulin TV show overhaul our little blue truck. Once, a huge pine tree fell on the roof (just missing our other vehicles) and dented the roof. Up until that point it had lots of rust but no dents. We'll never sell it. No matter what it just goes and goes.

[distantearlywarning]

76. We had a bright yellow 76 Datsun pickup.

My parents bought it in the mid 80's, and then gave it to me once I graduated high school. By the time I got it, it had 150K on it. I drove it until 1997 (21 years old and over 200K!) and then sold it to my neighbor for $200. When I left my hometown in 2000, I still saw him driving it around town sometimes.

It was a great little truck. I'd buy another one like it in a second if I had the cash.

[CottonBear]

77. Wow! a 1976 model! And yellow too!

I see quite a few zipping about where I live. They just refuse to die! It is sort of like driving a tin can!

[proud_dem]

67. I had a '78 Datsun ....

king-cab, it was a pretty decent truck till I moved back up north from va and the road salt pretty much desengrated it.

[CottonBear]

73. The salt would do it in for sure.

Mine has rust but, since I live in the south, it will probably hold together for quite a few more years.

[okieinpain]

98. I'm going to scrap a few bucks together and get one of those for

a work vehicle.

[Tyler Durden]

26. My 1997 Saturn 5-speed against a Honda Hybrid.

One of the new Honda Hybrids (I don't remember which one because I try to tune out TV commercials) advertized 30 city/37 highway.

Big deal.

My well-tuned well cared for Saturn gets at least 30 in the city, and WELL over 35 on they highway on gas alone.

As to Honda being better than an American brand: is dog shit better than horse shit, or are they both just SHIT?

[nolabels]

46. I am thinking about getting a Yamaha that gets around 90 mpg

The Powerful, Ultra-cosmopolitan Vino 125 ... Bravo!

The Vino 125 sports a 124cc, air-cooled, SOHC, 2-valve 4-stroke engine that puts out strong, predictable power with incredible gas mileage.
(snip)

More power, performance, more Vino.
(snip)
http://www.riversidemoto.com/

[Conservativesux]

115. Certainly you wouldnt ride this on American freeways would you?

The way most people drive in the US its hard trying to stay alive with a 3000 pound car.

[Seabiscuit]

57. Agreed. I'll take any Toyota over any American brand any day.

There's a world of difference.

[nolabels]

18. They've been predicting the second great depression since the early 80's

Good chance it could be even more than that but we are not scared:scared: because we got the Good Book and Gawd, that'll save us :crazy:

[barb162]

34. you're right, there are going to be a lot of unemployed people

[gordianot]

62. GM is just an artifact of what is coming.

There is no fixing this debt. As always Democrats will be expected to clean up the mess once the Republicans bail out. Bush will leave the Whitehouse like Hoover with an armed guard (as reported by Elanor Roosevelt). I have instructed my children once Bush is dead and buried to make at least one pilgrimage to his grave for a toilet stop.

This time it will happen overnight and we will wake up to what happens in the Asian markets as the dollar blows away.

[booksenkatz]

22. I'm glad some of you are enjoying this so much

Some of us here in southeast Michigan, our LIVES depend upon the Big Three doing well. I'm scared shitless today.

Y'know, I gotta say, I get kinda tired of people at DU bitching about the rotten US economy and then laughing their asses off when American companies go under, one by one. You don't have to be pro-corporate-welfare just because you want to see American companies SURVIVE. If GM goes under, I'm homeless, so I won't be joining in the champagne with y'all, sorry.
:(

[Tyler Durden]

28. You and me both, Patsy.

Why do you think I'm liquidating EVERYTHING and moving to Canada?

The house goes up for sale two weeks from today.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

29. If anyone's "laughing", it's because the alternative is just too sad....

...and everyone in this country is going to be affected if the economy takes a nose-dive. You'll have plenty of company on the street, believe me.

As to American companies, they've been driven by one thing over the years...pure unadulterated greed. And their greed has killed the goose that laid the golden egg, and just about destroyed the American working class. The wealthy corporate owners wanted huge tax cuts to energize the economy...well they got their cuts, have become even wealthier, and I have yet to see anything "trickle down" from their "voodoo economics". They deserve every ounce of angry criticism that can be tossed their way, IMHO.

I've got an older daughter in college, as well as a 7 year old in elementary school, and a 4 year old in pre-school. The wife and I are declaring Chapter 7 bankruptcy very soon. How nervous do you think we are?

[RaleighNCDUer]

30. It's not that we don't want them to survive.

It's simply anger at seeing them commit suicide.

[barb162]

35. for all the things GM does wrong, they still pay autoworkers good

salaries and benefits and these workers are going to lose their jobs, savings and go begging for some crap job at a Wallies. This is not good what is happening to GM

[d.l.Green]

36. They pay autoworkers well because of the unions, the workers did their

part by organizing and responding with quality work while the execs failed to do their part and keep the vehicles competitive by rejecting higher mileage progress or even alternatives. On the one hand the government has failed to require higher gas mileage and aggressive alternative energy research thanks to the industry's lobbying efforts, while the industry has failed to respond to the public's needs and wants. Gas prices have never been guaranteed to be low, so failing to see this ever-present threat alone is enough to endanger the industry. Then they go and "progress" by mass producing unnecessary gas guzzlers, importing more and more material to do so and ignoring the elephant in the room. At least the Japanese manufacturers responded first with more efficient cars and the hybrids and even built plants in the US.

It's sad to see any US industry fail, but to see one fail because of obvious repeated failures in its leadership is bad for all of us. And those execs will still survive the downturn because they are buffered by ridiculously high salaries no matter what the industry's status...

[barb162]

42. yes the autoworkers fought for every cent and good for them. I fear

the ramifications if the US auto industry goes belly up. That's about the only damned thing we still manufacture in this country.

[Chicago Democrat]

45. Damn straight! GM will be there.. GM will survive.

its a rough patch.....

[trogdor]

53. If I had money, I'd buy.

The stock is at around 25. In 2001, it was at 70. They'll fix a few things - rather publicly, and perhaps even introduce a hot new model or two. When that happens, anyone who bought GM at 25 will make a killing.

I'm not saying any of these fixes will be permanent, mind you, but something usually gets done to fix the problems when they become public embarassments like this.

I mean, look at K-Mart. What did the stock bottom out at, six bits? Anyone who made the observation a couple of years ago that K-Mart wasn't going away and bought the stock got filthy rich.

[leftofcool]

47. Understood and noted

I needed to hear this. I think I have been guilty of this, if not on this board, at home with my family. Thanks for reminding me that corporate companies like GM hire thousands and they are the ones that lose.

Left of Cool

[booksenkatz]

63. Thank you for saying that

I didn't mean to get bitchy, but man, not all companies are blue. Some people are in situations that require them to hitch their wagons to impure stars. Y'all want to see changes made, well, there are plenty of good Dems working for these companies, trying to make real changes for the future, instead of just sitting and complaining about them.

The auto biz is guilty of responding to market desires for big vehicles and not providing more innovative leadership the way it should, no question. I happen to believe that American tastes will change as gas prices skyrocket -- we're already seeing this. But telling any auto company to stop producing the stuff that makes the big money and to produce only compact vehicles, is like telling Hostess to stop making cupcakes and to make only bran muffins. Companies seldom make the first move; American tastes have just got to change (in cars AND snack foods).

I agree that we desperately lack corporate leadership in so many companies in this country. Changes need to be made, but do we all have to go under and get wiped out in order for those changes to be made? God, I hope not.

I personally feel that when it comes to transportation policy, leadership at the White House level would make a tremendous difference. A Gore presidency would have been a huge favor in this respect. We're going to have to teach the country how to change over to an entirely new form of transportation (and new forms of energy), just as folks had to make the switch from horses to cars 100 years ago. But that sort of major cultural switch takes leadership at the presidential level, in my opinion.

It's sad how Republican administrations force us all to fight for crumbs, it brings out the worst in most of us. I hate finding myself defending anything corporate, but the financial fate of many good people here in S.E. Michigan requires healthy American auto companies. I'm sorry if it makes me sound like an apologist for the fatcats. In our capitalist society, it's difficult for workers to effectively induce change at the leadership level; we can only do our best from wherever we are. But while I'm mulling that over, there are household bills to be paid and only one way to obtain cash to pay those bills. Some of us are not quite ready to eat fried dough for dinner every night.

Here's a nod to any DUers out there who are looking at the Dow today with growing fear for your immediate financial circumstance. For those of you who are working for companies that are 100% blue, or are self-employed, that's great! But that doesn't work for everyone.

[aneerkoinos]

104. Take-over

The workers can allways unite and take over the factories, collectively they sure as hell can manage things better than greedy stupid corporations.

That's what workers did in many places in Argentina when the collapse happened, with great success.

But better be armed, because the owners (sociopathic corporations) rather destroy the factories than let the workers run them for the benefit of themselves and the society.

[Seabiscuit]

61. Sorry your lives are dependent on the "Big Three" doing well, but

if I were in your shoes I'd never allow myself to become dependent on such ugly corporations who make such lousy products, pay no attention to the market, and don't give a rat's ass about their workers.

Right now if I were in your shoes I'd move and find a different kind of work elsewhere. Canada would sound real nice to me in such a situation.

GM's just getting what it deserves. People are angry at GM for good reason - they're part of what's destroying this economy. No one's *wishing* for a recession, they just fear it. Not I - GM could go belly up tomorrow and there'd be no recession - just a lot of people suddenly out of work who'd have to go elsewhere to survive, and that's very unfortunate, but it's GM's fault. Perhaps it would be a good thing - it might force other American automakers to overhaul their approach to business, which could result in a stimulus to the economy.

[llmart]

93. I can relate.....

my husband works for DameNear Chrysler and these past 4+ years under BushCo have been hell - especially after the boom years of President Clinton. This area of Michigan is hurting already, but the hurt is going to get worse now.

It's the result of Bush's failed/ignorant economic policies (or lack thereof).

[booksenkatz]

97. Don't you wish that

we were not so beholden to red companies? Don't you wish that all companies were a) blue and b) hiring by the thousands? But wishes don't pay the bills. Guess I'm too pragmatic. If my family withdrew from everything having to do with red companies, we'd be naked and homeless. Amazing to see so many luddite DUers who don't drive cars or eat food or live in homes or wear clothing or wear shoes or consume any products or generate any trash or generate any waste whatsoever or use computers. (I wonder how they manage to post at DU without computers? Are they aware of what goes in to the process of making a computer?) So many DUers love to point out the splinters in their brothers' eyes, ignoring the beams in their own. They'd rather that we go homeless and naked and get on the welfare rolls rather than work for a red company, I suppose. Or abandon a 20-year career with a red company in favor of a minimum wage job selling Ben & Jerry's, because principles are more important than feeding your children?

Dreams and wishes don't pay the bills. Can't eat principles. Honor doesn't keep a person warm at night. For me, all of those things died on December 12, 2000.

Hang in there, my fellow Michigander!:)

[llmart]

108. That's an interesting take on my post.....

Actually, I practice voluntary simplicity. But that doesn't mean that I live in a hut without running water and electricity. I am very, very careful about where and how I spend my money. I don't have small children any more, so it's easier to do, I will admit that. I always ask myself, do I really need this before I buy something. There is very little that one needs in life to be happy. In fact, if you read about voluntary simplicity you'll learn that every time you purchase something, it actually makes your life a little more complicated, what with the upkeep, etc. Yes, I have a computer and a TV, but it's not a big screen TV and it's not very new. (I don't watch TV anyway, but my husband is a TV addict.) We have two relatively new cars that we paid cash for. Our house is paid for. We actually SAVE money the old-fashioned way.

During the boom years of the 90's the autoworkers were getting hefty bonuses. Do you remember how they would interview the employees and they would all talk about what they were going to spend their bonuses on? My husband and I never spent the bonuses. We always banked them. Did they think the boom would never end? People in this country lack real common sense when it comes to money and finances.

I hear women I work with and how frazzled they are because they have to run here and run there to "shop" every free moment and then they wonder how I have time to walk at the park every day, take yoga classes twice a week, read books, have coffee with friends, etc. If they would stop running to the stores every free moment they could do it too. It's all a matter of choice. These women are at the same life stage as I am. Shopping is their only hobby.

It's all about finding balance. Having principles are very important, even more so nowadays as they are in short supply. I won't step foot in a Wal-Mart. I doubt that will make me starve. I don't bike to work, but I bought a 4 cylinder car and took a job closer to home. I make less money, but nowadays am saving plenty in gas money.

[booksenkatz]

109. Oh, rats, you misunderstood me!

I was not referring to you, I was agreeing with you! You (like me) are a person whose family circumstances rely upon the health of the Big Three. And yet so many DUers act like we should all just somehow magically disconnect ourselves from all red companies entirely, and my point is that it is impossible for anyone to do that.

I'm so sorry that I didn't make it clear that my sarcasm was absolutely not directed at you!:(

[llmart]

114. Apology accepted......

though I didn't really think you were being sarcastic towards me. I just thought that you had misunderstood me.

[ProfessorGAC]

31. Of Course. Look At Buick

They sign Tiger Woods as a spokesman. They come out with two new models. One is an SUV, that is no different than anything else, then come out with a new car model and it's only available as a 4 door sedan.

So, they sign a major celebrity, who's under 30, and then have no two door coupes, no convertible, no exotic colors in the models they have now.

The marketing people and operations staff are all obviously oblivious to the market desires.
The Professor

[maxsolomon]

33. passat TDI wagon with B100 fuel, here i come

and i'm keeping the 77 scirocco with the locking gas cap.

[daleo]

37. I rented a Passat station wagon last year.

Those things really go.

[Chicago Democrat]

39. GM's model problems don't mean "DEPRESSION"!!!

This perturbs me! First of all you aren't supposed to editorialize in LBN!

GM cars suck. But look at Jeep/Chrysler/Daimler AG? They rock. Ford is doing OK! GM has had model problems before. They need to get their costs in line; its bad news for GM and they need a good kick in the nuts.

[roughandtumble]

41. Bloomberg just reported that oil is over $57 a bll

Interesting.

[barb162]

43. I figure we have less than a Yr. too which is why we are busy talking

steroids in baseball right now in the Congress. Important stuff first. And this is a depression that will be permanent re oil, dollar, etc.

[William Bloode]

48. Gm makes crappy cars for the most part.

So this comes as no surprise. My wife had 2 Gm vehicles in the 90's, niether of the made 60,000 miles before a major mechanical failure. Most of them were due to those crappy aluminum engines they had. Overheating just once can kill the car with an aluminum engine.

[mhr]

50. Our Automobile Future - Made By Mercedes Benz

50 Mpg Plus!

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

58. I saw Smarts in Europe in 1998 when I visited there

Unfortunately, despite the fact they've been available now for years, I don't think Americans want them. A good alternative would be the Volkswagon Diesel Bug, available in the United States. Its milegage is probably just at around 48 mpg. But no one here wants to buy them.

[Massachusetts]

80. "I don't think Americans want them"

"Americans" may have no choice.

[sidpleasant]

71. God help us if that's so

According to the most recent Consumer Reports Mercedes Benz has fallen to nearly the bottom of the reliability ratings, ahead of only Range Rover and Jaguar as I recall. Even GM builds more reliable cars than MB these days.

[Coastie for Truth]

102. GM is betting on Hydrogen Economy Fuel Cell Cars

Hydrogen economy needs hydrogen.

Hydrogen only comes from two sources

"Reforming" petroleum and "Electrolyzing" water

Electrolysis of Water requires lots of Electricity

Where are we going to get electricity in those volumes

NUCLEAR

Maybe that is the Bush Cheney secret energy plan

Halliburton is a major nuclear plant builder

"Big Oil" will electrolyze water, transport, and sell hydrogen

Big Power companies will operate the reactors

ANWR was a show to crush the environmental movement

For NUCLEAR

Seems to be rolling into place.

So, nuclear electricity produced hydrogen - per Bush Cheney - may save GM's butt.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

118. When I was a kid they were talking about microwave energy from space

I remember listening to scientists saying that if we really pursued it, we could put gigantic solar panels into outer space, several million miles from earth, and beam the energy to the earth in the form of microwaves. It could be done without frying aircraft that might accidentally fly into the beam. That was nearly 35 years ago. These were major scientists working at NASA. Has that idea been completely abandoned?

[Coastie for Truth]

121. Been resurrected in a recent issue of IEEE Spectrum.

Theoretically possible.

Convert the incident light hitting the satellite (photodiode technology like any photovoltaic cell). Then convert the photovoltaic cell's DC to AC at radio frequencies (still electricity) and send it back to earth stations with big dome antennas (dishes) -- and knock the frequency to 60 hz.

Theoretically possible (that was the gist of the little blurb).

[guitar man]

52. They have it coming

GM is crap. The last GM vehicle I owned was a 1985 Olds Cutlass Supreme. It had the most anemic engine for a V-8 I ever drove and parts literally FELL OFF the car ata an incredible rate. I have seen people get so dismayed at the poor resale value of their 2 year old GM products. Well DUH!

Since the Cutlass fiasco, I have been a Ford man and never looked back. I have owned:

an '87 T-bird, good solid car,

a 96 f-150 with a 300 cu. in. straight-6, BEST TRUCK EVER!

a 2000 f-150 ex. cab 4x4 truck, good solid truck, a little miffed about the recall, but ok all around and,

a 1995 Lincoln Mark VIII-A MASTERPIECE of quality automotive engineering.

GM is getting what GM deserves.

[TommyO]

65. Like anything, it's a mixed bag

I've owned GMs, Fords, and VWs since I've been reasonably happy with all of them.

My favorite being my '87 Ford T-Bird Turbo Coupe - damn, I loved that car!

I've also had a '93 Pontiac Grand Am (bought in an emergency after my beloved T-Bird was totaled)

A '98 Ford Contour - very solid, but small. 6-cylinder was a bit thirsty for the size of the car

An '01 VW Jetta TDI - great fuel mileage, tiny back seat.

My most recent acquisition was a used 2000 Pontiac Grand Prix GT. By far the biggest car I have driven (bought specifically because of the huge back seat), and still gets around 28-30mpg on the highway (most of my driving)

They've all been pretty solid cars. The biggest problem I had with any of them was a transmission problem in the Contour, replaced by the dealer after a long delay in getting the parts. I then found a TSB which addressed the problem I was having - it was a reasonably simple fix that could have saved a lot of frustration in sourcing the transmission!

That said, all of the domestic manufacturers have placed FAR too much emphasis on trucks, and not nearly enough on small and mid-sized car development. It will hurt all of them in the near future.

[guitar man]

68. big back seats

you seem to like big back seats, is that for dating purposes, LOL?

[TommyO]

95. Not quite...

I've become the de-facto designated driver for friends and family and it's just too much asking them to squeeze into the back of the Jetta.

[robertpaulsen]

74. General Motors is running the world....RIGHT INTO THE GROUND!

Greetings

[RetroLounge]

75. I have a 1993 GMC Suburban

That just turned 150,000 miles yesterday.

Solid, rust free, and runs ok.

RL

[happyslug]

85. I owe a 1990 GMC Suburban

I just filled it up, $70 into the tank, and people ask me why I ride my bicycle to work each day. Solid, Rust Free but with dents from some hard usage. The only problem is a slow oil leak in the 350 CC engine. Every time I fill it up I have to add oil. I would get it fixed but Kelly's Blue Book gives it a trade in value of $885 so I keep it around for any heavy hauling I have to do.

[RetroLounge]

89. $70? My tank is 42 gallons.

You do the math...

I drive it to work, and that's about it...

RL

[happyslug]

90. My is only 35

It was the last year of the 1973-1990 Suburban. This car had been my brothers but the Insurance rates in Pittsburgh became to high for him so I took it off his hand and I have the Insurance payments ($435 for a six month period).

Anyway my brother did a lot of the work on the Suburban himself. Over the years he had to change various parts and many of the parts were NOT Suburban parts (One part was a part from a Buick). Since it was the last year for that body style GM seems to have used any old parts it had around, and to this day I have to check the part to make sure it fits the Suburban. You can NOT go by the book, the books may say part X fits the 1990 Suburban and a similar but not interchangeable part Y is for a 1985 Suburban and my Suburban has Part Y or once time after my brother through all of the parts for the 1973-1990 Suburban and finally said enough was enough and he just took the part down to the parts shop, that when he found out that the part was from a Buick).

Other than that problem it runs nice, 15 years old leaks some oil but runs.

[DisgustedTX]

81. Kudos to Chevy for the Cobalt - may have finally done it right

I was stuck in the Vega, Chevette, etc. doldrums during the 70's and 80's and have purchased Mazda's since - I would definitely consider a Supercharged Cobalt. It may be GM's first true competitor in the compact market with good mileage, decent styling (including the base model), and good construction.

C&D, MT, Automobile, and R&T all like it - a first for GM. :)

[Zech Marquis]

87. I like the Cobalt too

very nice style, good mileage, and a very nice price range too! :wow:

[Coastie for Truth]

103. I had Corvairs and Cavaliers

All crap. No I have a Prius and a Corolla. No complaints.

[bush_is_wacko]

88. So when the hell are they gonna start switching over to hybrids?

People aren't buying their cars because they are gas hogs and people are broke! Get it through your head auto makers, WE KNOW WE DON'T HAVE MUCH OIL LEFT AND WE WANT TO USE LESS AND LESS! I hope they do go broke and soon!

Depression? Well, I have been expecting that since I watched the first tower fall. I'll be one of the starving, I'm sure, but I don't know what I can do about it. Bushitler won't do shit to stop any of HIS formulated disasters, God tells him he is doing the right thing to CREATE the sick, weak, poor, and meek!

And if you believe that I know where you can get a good deal on WMD's!

[ausiedownunderground]

94. American's are to tough on GM!

GM is only following the Rethuglican's oil policy - Control whats left. And Drill for the rest!
In the "Rest of the world" we are building the most advanced "Nuclear" power plants and spending a large amount of money on alternative transportation energy resources. This might look like a "joke" to America, but we'll see in 20 years?

[clem_c_rock]

99. The PNAC forsaw ALL this - PERPETUAL WAR was their answer

So what did they do to gain public support to go after diminishing global resources?

1. Steal 2000 elections - PNAC "crazies" finally gain power.

2. Fly planes into buildings - blame folks who live in oil countries.
Now the public support, impossible by any other means, is achieved
to do whatever they deem necessary. Massive military buildup,
preemptive invasion for any country, take away citizen's rights,
programs for the weaponization of space-None of this would have
been possible w/out their Pearl Harbor.

3. Invade a oil country #1 where a failed pipeline deal to the
massive Caspian oil fields (one of the untapped frontiers).

4. Invade oil country #2 w/ massive oil potential and strategic
importance.

5. Steal election # 2. Political capital to install 4th Reich powers
indefinitely.

6. Plans to invade #3 coming up soon.

7. Stupid, psychotic plan (proved through history to ALWAYS fail)
fails leading to bankrupted rednecked superpower.

With all the money they have spent on these military adventures, we could be well on our way to a renewable resource driven economy but, these Oil/MIC/shape shifters chose perpetual, multi-front wars.

[fortyfeetunder]

105. Boo effing hoo

As they destroy those electric cars in the desert, had virtually abandoned fuel efficiency for performance, and gas guzzling, I offer not one nanosecond of sympathy for GM and the other big Three.

Too effing bad.

[ausiedownunderground]

106. Get real! American's have the cheapest petrol in the Western World!

The only problem for American's is that we can "Afford" it!! Most of the Anglo-Saxon world is actually "wealthier" than the US, and we are only just starting to realize that. We pay much higher transportation energy costs, but we pay a lot less for "everything" else. There is a lot in "Everything" else! American's can visit the "Red states" best tourist attractions!!! So can the rest of the world. The MSM tells you that incredible numbers of foreigner's are visiting "The Red State's" great all American tourist attractions. I absolutely "dispute that"!!!!!!!! America does not have a "Tourist boom"!!! America's tourist numbers have gone down!! Hardly anybody from Oz even talks about America, outside of their worries about Iraq and "The Bush Gang".

[mainer]

107. My dad owned a Corvair

Flipped right over on a curve, in good driving conditions, on a California highway. He survived. the corvair didn't.

[Amfortas]

111. kick

[0007]

112. We sure have all the ear marks for a depression, eh?

[Massachusetts]

116. There go the Pensions!

[tabasco]

117. Just bought a Toyota Echo @ 45 mpg.

Fuck off GM.