'Vigilantes' set for Mexico border patrol

[True_Blue]

From 1 April, groups of volunteers from across the US will spend up to a month camped out in the inhospitable Arizona desert.

But this is no ordinary hunting or camping trip.

Armed with night vision goggles, radios and light aircraft, their quarry are the hundreds of immigrants who each night seek illegally to cross the wire fence separating the US from Mexico.

While the volunteers insist they will simply "observe" the new arrivals' movements and alert the US Border Patrol, human rights groups fear the eruption of vigilante violence.

more....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4384855.stm

[Midnight Rambler]

I'm sure they just can't wait to shoot a Mexican

And it always amazes me that they claim illegal immigrants are taking jobs away from hard working Americans, yet they almost certainly end up doing the jobs that nobody else wants. I think it was Bill Maher who said, "Like you'd stand by the highway selling oranges out of a bag."

[PsN2Wind]

2. I drive the highways quite regular

and I'm sure there are not 10 or 11 million selling oranges out of bags. The are building most of the homes going up here in Arizona and working in one or two other trades I've worked in in the past.That "only doing what gringos won't do" is a bogus argument.

[Midnight Rambler]

4. Maybe I'm a bit biased, being Hispanic

I just tend to see a racist undercurrent in these anti-immigration arguments. And I never said that's all they do, either. I know they provide plenty of competition for American jobs (day laborers, for example), but I hardly think it's the full on invasion these people make it out to be.

[PsN2Wind]

5. I don't believe that it is racist

to be anti Illegal immigration. I don't know where you live but I'm 30 miles north of the central Arizona-Mexico border. We are the ones that pay the most to educate, medicate and incarcerate the illegals and there children. We are the ones that have to be concerned about getting run-down by coyotes try to outrun the Border Patrol. We are the ones that have to go into the desert armed due to the coyotes and mules coming up. We are also the ones left to pick up the jetsam from the groups coming up north. I hope it's better in your area but we know here the Feds just don't care enough. If they did the employers of the illegals would be out of business. Importing labor has much the same effect as exporting jobs. It puts downward pressure on the wages of those wanting to work in the remaining jobs.

[Lerkfish]

21. actually, I DO think its racist, because we don't balk at the thousands of

white europeans entering our country as immigrants. We don't even hear about them.

Hell, the russian mafia is causing big problems on the east coast, but we don't hear politicians concerned about keeping them out. There are a great many Irish immigrants into NYC, and even some of them work here and ship money for arms to the IRA, but we don't see a cry to oust THEM.

no offense to PsN2Wind, but I have always felt this was a light skin/dark skin issue, consciously or unconsciously.

[PsN2Wind]

24. I am against Illegal Immigration

from wherever they might come. Do you have an estimate of how many millions of these "white Europeans" have entered this country. It's not a color issue, it's an issue of law and sovereignty.

[yellowcanine]

54. But this is not the way to enforce the immigration laws. Someone is

going to get killed and it probably will be one of these "minutemen" - or maybe a border patrol officer.

[PsN2Wind]

6. A slight addendum

In view of the 580,000 caught by the Border Patrol last year and I've had Border Patrolman tell me they estimate they catch about 10%, how many does it take for you to consider it a "full on invasion"?

[Midnight Rambler]

10. I grew up along the Texas border

My grandfather came here illegaly, as far as I know, though he eventually became a citizen. When I refer to racism, I'm talking about the right-wing arguments. Besides, few BP agents where I grew up are white anyway. And what I mean by "full on invasion" is that I've heard some people say that the sovereignty of the U.S. is in danger from immigration. To me, that's just bullshit. They're just looking for a better life. Should they come legally? Absolutely, but for many, desperation takes over.

I don't disagree with what you say, I just have a feeling that some of these Minutemen are motivated by something else besides concern for jobs.

[Bo]

53. I'd like to see an Israeli type wall

built on our southern border. It's just dangerous to have it so open. And this way we are more secure and illegals are stopped drastically

[conservdem]

98. That idea has a lot of appeal.

[Conservativesux]

12. So is the " Mexicans work harder then Americans" line. Most of these..

..workers only work for part of the year, then they quit and head out to greener pastures, usually on an extended stay back in Mexico with thier families, while American workers are lucky to get two weeks off with pay.

[kokofitz]

14. That's why they fought so hard to keep them out of the Alamo

Santa anna's boys would've had that place sheetrocked in about 30 minutes!

props to Tim Wilson

Sorry, I just couldn't resist using a funny line to point out two things: 1) Without exception, every Mexican immigrant I've seen both here and in my time in AZ (almost 20 years) took any job they could get and 2) they worked their asses off when they got a job.

We had our house re-roofed last summer. The crew was all Mexican from Monterrey. They did a fine job and finished in half the time of the U.S. crew that roofed my neighbor's house - with plenty of leaks.

Did they all have green cards? I dunno.

[Berserker]

19. Do you really believe that kokofitz

Your neighbor gets his home roofed by local Americans that have to have a contractors license, Insurance, Workers comp and pay unemployment insurance just to work in your neighborhood and it takes TWICE as long as the Mexican roofers and thats a GOOD thing?
If you are in the roofing industry you will have a problem with a leak at some point. But the way you make it sound we Americans are lazy and do shit work.
Is speed what you are concerned about? I see with and attitude like you have you are concerned about one thing and one thing only SPEED. Well thats a crock of shit.
When something is done on my home I don't look for speed I look for Quality. I will also venture to bet what ever you did for a living was not infiltrated by Mexicans that would do your job twice as fast for half the price. If it were you would not be talking like this.

[kokofitz]

31. I'm sorry that you misinterpreted my meaning.

So much for the oblique approach. Here's a head on version. (BTW, I am opposed to illegal immigration.)

I don't know if the Mexican immigrants I've dealt with feel that they have something to prove or if it's just their work ethic, but they do give extra effort to their work. (I believe it's likely that because many of them work on piece work jobs, faster means more money which, in turn, means a better standard of living for both them and their families.) I am not concerned with speed only. I am concerned with speed and quality. (As an aside, I had no idea that the crew would be Mexican immigrants when I hired the contractor and no, he was not the low bidder.)

I do know that the contractor I hired pays all aplicable taxes and insurnace for his business and employees. I check those items before I hire a contractor. I also request copies of licenses, insurance, etc. be submitted with the bid. Honest contractors have no problem providing that information. It's a personal liability thing.

BTW You should see the difference in appearance between my neighbor's roof and mine. His looks like a six-year-old put it on with a toy hammer. Also, I have seen superb work done by all sorts of roofing crews. Living in a rural area, it's a noteworthy event when a new house goes up so we all watch the progress.

Do I believe that American (U.S., that is) workers are slipping? You betcha! We have two Tyson plants within a couple hour's drive. Their workforces are almost completely Mexican immigrants because the locals refuse to work there. (Yes, I know about and deplore Tyson's record on the hiring of illegals.)

I care not one bit about the nationality, color, creed, ethnicity, etc. of those working with me, for me, or whom I work for. I do care that they work efficiently and productively. Laziness and sloppiness exist in all cultures. I can only say that I've witnessed less of either from the mexican immigrants I've oberved and dealt with.

Since it seems to be of interest to you, I'll tell you what I did for a living before I retired. I was a teacher. For a time, I worked with the migrant worker education program run by my local district during my summer break. Do you want me to grade your post for grammar, construction, and quality?

[alarimer]

46. They get hired because they work for less

Sometimes much less and don't bitch about working conditions. Corporations and even individuals hire illegals and those are the ones to complain about, not the immigrants themselves. They are only trying to better themselves. They are the ones being exploited. They pay all their savings to the coyotes and are sometimes in debt to those people for years, so they end up making nothing. They live in deplorable housing (like slave cabins only worse). They are exposed to pesticides at levels that kill or maim. They have little in the way of health care.

[MrTriumph]

7. Midnight - You & Bush just don't get it.

Illegal immigrants do take away jobs from American citizens. Americans will take those jobs you and Geo. Bush think they won't. They thing is: you have to provide Americans a fair wage.

For an illegal, a $5 job is more than a $5 job when those American dollars are sent back to Mexico.

I will guantee yo Mr. Midnight, if YOUR job were taken or your wages reduced by illegal labor, you'd sing a different tune.

[Conservativesux]

9. What you said is 100 percent true!!

[primavera]

42. What you said is 100% false

Illegal immigrants do not take jobs from American citizens. When a construction or farm foreman goes looking for workers each day, they do not turn away US citizens because they aren't illegal immigrants, they hire whoever shows up and wants to work. US workers don't show up. The work is there, it's open to US workers if they want it, they simply don't want it, and you want to blame the people who take it for the decision by US citizens to not take the work.

Secondly, while the undocumented workers are here doing the job you don't want, they pay taxes, which creates a job for a US bureaucrat somewhere to collect them. They buy a car from a US auto dealer, which they fill up with gas from a US gas station. They buy groceries from the local grocery store. They buy clothes for their families from the local department store. They go to the movies and pay the same $8 admission charge that everyone else pays. Because they are there consuming goods and services, they are creating jobs that would not be there were it not for their presence. So while the undocumented worker consumes a job that you don't want, s/he generates spending which supports a job which you do want. In other words, the economy grows.

This is what is traditionally overlooked by anti-immigrant advocates who want to convince the public that immigrants steal jobs from US workers. Every scholarly analysis ever done (see the works of political scientist Susan Croucher, or those of economist David Card, or those of demographer Jeff Passel) bears out that, when you take into account the jobs created by immigrants, they balance out the jobs they consume.

[Bo]

55. Illegals lower wages and have.....

dramatically lowered construction job wages. Any idiot in construction knows this. I was a supervisor. I know

[MrTriumph]

56. How is your gardener? Or it is domestic servant? Or is it yard man?

Get real, Kevin. If these jobs are offered to Americans at decent wages, Americans will take them.

How much would it take for you to clean toilets, Kevin? $5/hour? Hmmm? $10/hour? Pretty nasty job, huh? Maybe $12/hour and a few benefits? Maybe Sunday off? Oh, but if you can send a few bucks back home and that $5 is equal to a day's wages, it is not such a bad deal.

Mr. Bush & misguided eggheads may tell you illegal immigants are a net positive, but there are just as many studies- oh, and common sense- that tells you otherwise.

Next time, put yourself in a worker's shoes. How much would you want to be paid to clean a toilet or roof a house or work in a sweat shop? Think about what wages would be fair. If you don't think those tough jobs should pay much, you are an arrogant anti-working person elitist and a good friend to your like-minded president.

[primavera]

62. Not that simple

Wages can't just be set arbitrarily, their increases and decreases have ripple effects. Say you pay someone $5/hr to build a house worth $50K and you want the guy making $5/hr to be able to afford the houses he builds, so you double his wage to $10/hr so that s/he can afford the $50K house. The problem is, since labor was the primary cost in building the house, by doubling the labor cost, you also double the cost of the house, so great, the worker now makes $10/hr, but the house now costs $100K. How has the situation improved? Obviously that's a very oversimplified example, but the basic underlying point is valid: you change wages, particularly in a labor intensive field, and the cost of the goods or services will rise proportionately. Are you willing to put your money where your mouth is and pay $10/lb instead of $5/lb for your tomatos in order to ensure that they're picked by well paid US workers?

What happens to US exports of vegetables when the price of tomatos increases from $5/lb to $10/lb? How many countries are going to want to buy our tomatos at that higher price when they can buy the same tomatos from Argentina cheaper? What happens to our trade balance then? What happens to the value of the dollar then? When the value of the dollar falls still further and other countries start dumping dollars, what's going to happen to interest rates and inflation in this country? You see, it all sounds so easy, but the reality is that everything has consequences.

The other thing to consider is whether we as Americans really want to pick asparagus if we can hire somebody else to do it cheaper. I mean, do you grow your own food? Did you build your own house? Manufacture your own car? Of course not, because it's not cost effective for you to do those things for yourself. Instead you work as a whatever, making X salary, which presumably is high enough to allow you to pay somebody to grow your food for you and build your house and your car for you. Let's face it, if you can work as a lawyer for $400/hour, why would you want to go work as a fruit picker for $10/hour? How would that possibly be advantageous to you? So as long as you have a secure job which provides you with adequate income to buy the goods and services you need, who the hell cares who picks your vegetables for you? Why does it matter?

Obviously, it matters when the US starts facing a serious unemployment crisis. But again, I think it's a valid question to ask, if what we need to do is create jobs, what kinds of jobs do we want to create for our citizens? Do we want to create jobs as lawyers making $400/hr or do we want to go after fruit picking jobs paying $10/hr? Maybe the solution to the unemployment problem isn't to get all hot and bothered because there are people working in low wage jobs, but focus on building up our educational system to the point where American citizens can fill high quality jobs that pay more than picking fruit.

[Conservativesux]

8. Not true. Many corporations hire almost all Mexican workers as they..

..will work hard for a few months or a year, then pack it up and go back to Mexico to live it up, while the company just hires more hispanics, as the wages are so low and with no benefits, that most whites, Blacks and asians wouldn't even consider a job like these.

Most of these jobs are in the packing, shipping and receiving departments of large companies, that I have seen with my own eyes, not second hand stories.

[Reload]

71. Packing it up...

hmmm...haven't been seeing too many Mexicans "packing it up after a few months or a year." What I am seeing is permanence as in acquiring driver's license and starting their new families here on American soil. Think about it...having a child here gives the child automatic American citizenship and entitles the parents to permanent status here.

What is the REAL cost for this "cheap" labor anyway when taxpayers must fund their education and medical expenses?

All that is going on is gov't subsidized labor for coporate fascism while the long term POLITICAL goal is to "equalize" the masses into a bunch of powerless sewer rats.

[electricray]

13. Keep in mind we are all fighting over table scraps.

The interesting thing about the entire debate over the border is that the people responsible for the entire debacle are always insulated from the fray. I highly doubt that these vigilantes are rolling up in Beemers and Mercedes. They are going to camp out in the desert and kill the people that they should be standing beside. Borders are just imaginary lines in the sand. The poverty the aliens are running from is the same poverty the vigilantes will kill to avoid. We need to address the underlying fear that motivates the actions of both sides of this "war". These vigilantes would be better served using their collective power to help create better wealth distribution in Mexico than to keep sticking fingers in the leaky dam. I have no ideas and I am somewhat ignorant with a lot of this, but I hope to at least be able to contribut to an eventual dialogue.

[BuelahWitch]

26. Well said

Big business and the Republicans want us fighting each other, not the real enemy THEM!

Oh and welcome to DU! :hi:

[toopers]

27. The problem is not only the jobs, but . . .

the costs the states incur from illegal immigration. Not only is there no tax revenue from these illegal workers, but we also end up having to school the children and care for the injured. I think Arnold may have had a good idea. He wanted to charge the federal government for the costs that California incurs each year due to illegal immigrants. It would certainly get * attention if Arnold pushed that tact.

[primavera]

44. Wrong again

Employers withhold taxes on undocumented aliens just as they do on US citizen workers. No, I'm sure they don't do it out of the goodness of their hearts, rather, they do it because they know that if they, as a labor intensive business, try to submit a tax return to the IRS claiming that they only had two workers working for them all year, there's no chance in hell the IRS is ever going to believe them and auditors will descend upon them like a hoard of locusts and put them out of business in a heartbeat. The Social Security Administration alone estimates that undocumented workers have paid nearly half a trillion dollars into the Social Security system over the years.

So undocumented workers pay the same taxes as you and I and support the same social benefit programs. The only difference is that they, unlike you and me, are too terrified to access most of the services they are paying for. So actually, the reality is just the opposite of what you claim: undocumented workers pay in and don't take out, so they're actually subsidizing your social welfare programs. Perhaps you should consider saying thank you instead of bashing them.

[toopers]

52. Of course, you are making the assumption that the employer

is legitimate also. Often, that is not the case.

[primavera]

64. Fairly said

You're quite right, I'm only speaking of legitimate employers and there are certainly sweat shops out there. And absolutely those are evil sonsofbitches who I am confident will smoke a turd in hell for the way they've treated people.

[MrTriumph]

57. Kevin- They are being exploited, get it?

News flash: Illegals are exploited by businesses. Harsh and dangerous working conditions are not uncommon. Long hours. No benefits. And if an employer really wants to shaft illegals, THE BUSINESS calls the immigration service to have the laborers sent back to Mexico. Oh, and the employer stiffs the illegals the cash for their last pay period!

Kevin, the system that protects employees' rights only works when everyone is obeying the law. That means, businesses and laborers.

The fact American workers are hurt compounds the problem.

[Reload]

72. Illegal parents=AMERICAN babies

Soooo...when these illegals have babies here are the parents still illegal? And, aren't the AMERICAN children LEGALLY entitled to all social services available?

Something to think about.

[jayfish]

1. Some Of These Folks...

are going to get themselves shot-up. They are going to be interfering with the livelihood of quite a few people. People who can invest in protection. I think they would be better served (and safer) putting pressure on the feds to do their jobs.

Jay

[kokofitz]

3. While I don't agree with the Minuteman Priject,

i do take issue with the vililante label. Vigilantes attempt to capture ane hand out punishment for crimes or perceived crimes.

According to the website, these people are advocating only observing and reporting. In fact, they specifically instruct participants to avoid contact.

That's not vigilanteism. It's more a misguided neighborhood watch.

[applegrove]

11. I saw them being interviewed. They were serious about not

carrying weapons (unless police officer).I think they have been told of the dangers of violence and murder in such a situation.

This is more of the "communities take care of them selves and don't tax the rich to keep the laws in place that help non-rich". More local yokel stuff. More tribalism.

And the cuts to policing... icy cold Bush & all.

[SixDollarBurger]

28. They will be carrying weapons.

The members of the group will be carrying handguns if they are licensed to do so(concealed carry permit)They will not be carrying rifles.

[blindpig]

30. carrying a sidearm is legal in Az.

A bit disconcerting sometimes, but legal. Saw a fellow riding his bicycle up a road in Yuma once with a 30-30 holstered.

[TX-RAT]

36. 30-30 holstered.?

Was his name Josh Randall?

[blindpig]

41. don't know

Don't think I want to, he looked possibly deranged. It was a saddle holster attached behind the seat on the frame.

[applegrove]

69. The organizer I saw interviewed said that only local law enforcement

members who are also volunteers will be carrying the guns. At least that is the impression he left.

[kokofitz]

32. There is no license required to carry a sidearm in AZ if

said sidearm is holstered or otherwise has enough of it in plain view so as to be identifiable as a firearm.

One does need a license, CCW permit, to carry a concealed sidearm in AZ, either issued by that state or issued by a state that recognizes reciprocity with AZ. Certified LE's from any state may carry a concealed weapon anywhere in any state according to a new Federal law.

FYI: I'd most certainly carry a sidearm in the Sonoran Desert. There are too many beasties that can kill you that live there. I am not referring to humans.

[SixDollarBurger]

35. True

The organizers of the event have restricted firearms to those with CCW's, even though Arizona has an open carry law.

[Hobarticus]

33. I guarantee that the border-crossers will be packing, too...

Now that they know that a line of kookaburras are armed and waiting for them, and being that they're pretty much exposed and isolated, they'll be ready for anything when they crosds that line.

This is a bad, bad idea.

[TX-RAT]

37. Do i have the right to defend my property against trespassers?

I believe thats still a crime.

[Hobarticus]

50. Never said tresspassing's not a crime...but is shooting trespassers

necessary, especially if they're just passing through?

[TX-RAT]

61. Who's shooting people?

I believe they said observe and report to LEO.

[SixDollarBurger]

38. Most

Illegal immigrants are not generally armed. About 3 weeks ago a friend and I were pig hunting. We discovered a family of illegals wandering aimlessly without food or water. The woman had a 4 month old baby with her. A coyote had dumped them in the middle of nowhere.We fed them and gave them some water. We then took them to the closest Border Patrol station. They were happy to be turned over. It was clear that they wanted to go home.

[Hobarticus]

51. I hope it stays that way, for everyone's sake...

But don't count on it. See this DU thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1347980&mesg_id=1347980

[pinto]

70. with all due respects to permits, I fear "vigilante" violence, regardless

of legality, or illegality, on all sides.
Doesn't seem an answer to me.

[Midnight Rambler]

15. Wow, didn't know I was gonna get ganged up on like this

Blame my opinions on my aforementioned ethnic biases. Call me ignorant, whatever. I don't want to start a flame war here.

:pals:

[Bridget Burke]

17. Yes, there's a lot of racism involved.

If we want to stop undocumented workers--throw the guys who hire them in jail. Not for long--just a year or so. And fine them until they scream.

But that won't happen.

[primavera]

45. Now there's a plan that makes sense

Unfortunately, the lobbyists for the agricultural and construction industries have always made sure that, whatever immigration enforcement plan made its way through Congress, included special exemptions for those sectors, which are, of course, the sectors which hire the most undocumented workers.

Consider Operation Vanguard launched by the former INS to crack down on unauthorized employment in the meatpacking sector in the mid-West. The effort wasn't a month underway before state governors began complaining about the harm it did to local industry and they got the program shut down.

[MrTriumph]

58. It is not a race issue.

Midnight- Who do you think mostly competes for jobs with illegals? Poor whites, poor hispanics, poor blacks. It isn't a race issue.

Among other things it is a workers' rights issue (fair wages & working conditions). It is a play by the rules issue (immigration should be done legally). And a security issue (protect the borders).

[fertilizeonarbusto]

16. Just wait

until a "coyote" blasts one of them and all the whining startrs. Better yet, they get mistakenly shot by border patrol or narcotics agents. Then, we'll get the "boo-hoo-hoo."

[PsN2Wind]

18. Showed up to cheer for the "coyotes"

have you? Considering what they do to this country and their people, they aren't normally that popular here. The weekly rollovers killing and maiming their cargo and the occasional shootouts on the freeway have made them less popular in Az than they seem to be with you.

[fertilizeonarbusto]

23. OK, just HOW was that cheering for coyotes?

Did that post give the impression I thought they are good people? If I read that correctly, I portrayed them as trigger-happy murderers. I don't have to like coyotes to think that what these people are doing is stupid and juvenile interference with law and order-and dangerous mostly to themselves. And I've been around long enough to know that if any of them gets (God forbid) killed or injured by coyotes or smugglers or state or federal agents they'd whine like Rethugs about taxes and conveniently forget they put themselves there in the first place.
I really resent your self-righteous implication. I'd use stronger language, but I respect the rules of this site.

[PsN2Wind]

25. Having reread your post, I see

you weren't cheering for the coyotes to "blast one". You appear to feel it would be be "better yet" were they shot by the Border Patrol or Narcotics enforcer.
It's unfortunate that these people feel they have to intervene because the "law and order" along the border does not exist. As long as there are eager employers of these illegals they will continue to come in droves.

[fertilizeonarbusto]

48. Obviously your irony and sarcasm detector is on the fritz

I do not REALLY think either thing would be good or better yet. Nor do I applaud the virtual slavery that leads to this or the lack of enforcement capabilities on the border. (Just what kind of psychopath do you assume me to be?) I am merely saying these events are very likely to happen as I outline them. It would take a moral idiot to applaud them. Do not blame me if you can't detect irony and do not immediately assume I would really think something like that.
And, yes, it is downright moronic for a bunch of people to put themselves uninvited in a danger zone while basically playing cops and robbers. And I stand by what I said: if anyone of them gets a scratch (from criminals or law-enforcement) the hullaballoo will be deafening and how they got themselves there will be conveniently forgotten by them and the sob sisters in the media. But, obviously, you know best, know what's in my heart and I am a hopeless scoundrel. It is people with superior, self-righteous attitudes like yours and a positively lightning-fast willingness to assume the worst from what you have misunderstood and make unwarranted, vicious and hurtful personal attacks that do our cause as much damage as the Tom DeLays of this world. And again, I refrain from using stronger language.

[GoldenOldie]

20. Vigilante's "serious about not carrying weapons."

Than they are bigger fools than I thought! Having married into a 4th generation Arizona ranch family living within 12-miles from the border and having the opportunity to closely observe some extremely dangerous mountainous areas.....bears, mountain lions, cougar, rattlesnakes, and known rabies areas, without the defence of a gun is just plain stupid. This is one area that illegals come through because it is harder for the US to patrol and it must be done by plane and horseback.

The local ranchers have been warned via the border grape-vine that that the Mexican druglords and coyotes, will have not problem taking on those that intend to interrupt their operations.

This is what the purpose of our National Guards were for....to protect and defend the US borders, yet George has sent them to foreign soils to spill their blood. It's time for our Governor's to take back control of their National Guard Units.

[Hobarticus]

34. This seems like a recipe for disaster...

Sounds like trouble waiting to happen.

[Nevernose]

22. I once saw an illegal bury himself alive to avoid La Migra

I was on a construction site a couple of years ago, picking up concrete samples for a buddy's engineering firm. I did this every now and then when their workload was too heavy and I was in the neighborhood; I never got much more than a free meal out of it, but, much like the illegals, I was getting paid under the table.

Anyway, one day at about 9AM the Roach Coach comes cruising through the site with a voice over their loudspeaker, and Mexican workers begin running in all directions, as if someone had taken a whack at a beehive.

"What the hell are they doing?" I asked myself, checking my watch. "It's only nine in the morning. They CAN'T be that hungry yet."

As the lunch wagon rolled closer, I could make out the words more clearly: "La Migra! La Migra!" Sure enough, Immigration was beginning to come through the other side of the job site.

One guy, whom I presume was an illegal alien, crawled into a metal culvert/pipe thing in a ditch, where his friend proceeded to bulldoze about a ton of dirt on top of him. His friend then ran like hell. The guy in the pipe had no way of knowing if anyone even knew he was in the pipe, much less if his buddy would get caught and be unable to dig him back out again.

If it were me, I'd rather get sent to Mexico than be buried alive, and I was BORN here! That's at least one guy who DESERVES to be a United States citizen, in my opinion. If he's crazy enough, or desparate enough, to let himself be buried with only a 50/50 shot of getting out of the hole alive, then I say fuck it, let him stay.

Seeing this, as well as spending a few days in Mexico outside of the tourist areas, kind of tempered my opinion on the matter. It's a lose-lose situation: yes, immigrants take jobs, often good ones (especially in the construction trades), but Mexico is an extremely poor country, so it's hard to blame anyone from coming here illegally.

[Beetwasher]

29. An Absolute Fucking Disaster Waiting To Happen

n/t

[jdj]

49. Out of work KKK'ers now have a hobby.

some of these assholes wear confed. flag stuff. These people beat the hell out of those trying to cross.

I don't know how in the hell this is legal. Bush is directly responsible for this attitude.

Makes me sick.

[PATRICK]

39. It will be very odd

When the Mexicans who make it through get into our Army and its horror wars and come back to roost among these amateurs. In large and disgruntled numbers or as super patriots.

None of these vigilantes will end up serving in their own country's armed forces.

[blindpig]

40. sticky business with no easy answers

Is this a racial thing for some scumsucking morans? Absolutely.

Is it a jobs issue? Absolutely again. Hang out with the low wage set sometimes, there is growing bitterness and resentment among some folks who can't/won't compete in the "bust your ass for $5/hr" market.

It's pretty crazy on the Az border, I go there about every other year to hunt snakes and have seen some shit: people popping up out of culverts with nothing but an empty milk jug, gangs of folks making mad dashes across open fields, detention camps in the middle of the desert. We set off sensors near Cochise Pass while looking for snakes at night and brought the man down on us. Have been warned off dirt roads by Native Americans warning that the drug smugglers would kill us.

Because of my concern for the environment I feel that population growth is a bad thing. I don't want ANY immigration, from a population point of view it is merely rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

What I would like to see is our government doing much more to promote better wages and living conditions world wide. This would require leaning on both foreign governments and more importantly on the corporations. Something along the lines of our fucked up Cuba policy, but rightly done for the right reasons. For example, If corp X doesn't pay its employees a wage relative to 1st world countries then we won't do business, and that includes selling your stuff in our country.

Honestly, if people could make a decent living in Mexico they wouldn't come here, neither would I. I find the climate, cuisine, people and herpetofauna right up my alley.

[Bridget Burke]

43. Overpopulation is a worldwide problem.

The US can't solve its own problems by trying to become a gated community. Population growth tends to slow down as living standards rise. People begin thinking about doing more for their children when they have moved beyond hoping some of them live to adulthood.

Fair wages for decent jobs should be promoted worldwide. But unions are under attack here in the USA, when they ought to be going international.

[blindpig]

47. don't want to live in no gated community

I would just like to see the problem solved at the root, by improving the lot of people at home.

Those cowboys down near Douglas aren't helping anyone, people will get hurt, quite possibly them, there is a lot of ordinance being fielded by all players. If they really wanted to help make Arizona a better place to live they could round up all of the real estate developers...............................

[Bridget Burke]

59. More rattlesnakes, fewer developers?

The answer for the Great Southwest!

[blindpig]

63. Of course

lesser of the evils and all that.............................

[MrTriumph]

60. Bridget- Illegal immigration = a pressure valve for other countries

The best way to get other countries to address their failures of land and wealth distribution, lack of opportunity, political stagnation and population growth is to stop illegal immigration.
As long as the US serves as a valve to relieve that pressure, the ineffective governments of many countries to our south can continue.

Notice we have no problem with illegal immigration on our border with Canada, a relatively well governed nation that address the needs of Canadians.

[primavera]

65. Canada's not a fair example

The country with which Canada shares a contiguous land border doesn't have a per capita GDP less than a tenth of Canada's, there is consequently less economic incentive for migration. Canada also has a very generous legal immigration system which allows almost as many people who want to enter Canada to enter Canada legally, so there's far less need for border enforcement.

But I agree that, to some degree, emigration provides a way for poor countries to alleviate domestic pressure for change. At the same time, it could also be said that, for instance, the US needs to stop crushing family planning, contraception, and abortion programs in under-developed and over-populated countries. As always, it's a mixture of things that go into a complex problem.

[MrTriumph]

66. So why is Canada not a fair example?

Oh, because it is north instead of south of the border? Surely you aren't saying Mexico (more than 50% of illegal immigrants come from Mexico alone) is incapable of effective self-government. Surely you aren't saying Mexico can't create plenty good paying jobs?

The point is, Mexico is not compelled to. Millions of disgruntled Mexicans vote with their feet and come north to make money. As long as we allow it, Mexican gov't, business and society need not change to provide plenty of good paying jobs.

And I not talking about immigration INTO Canada. Duh. I am talking comparing the number of Canadians that sneak into the US (not very many) compared to Mexicans sneaking into the US (very many).

[primavera]

68. Sorry, you said immigration, not emigration

So I thought you were referring to immigration, which, from Canada's point of view, would refer to people coming into Canada. Sorry, my misunderstanding.

[XemaSab]

67. "What I would like to see is our government

doing much more to promote better wages and living conditions world wide."

Amen to that.

Fair wages and a decent social safety net in Mexico would curtail illegal immigration drastically.

By the way, a lady from my church just got back from Nicaragua, and she says when you buy fair trade coffee, you support the Sandanistas.

[Astarho]

73. Fimbres expedition, take 2

This sort of thing happened before in the 30's only instead of Mexicans it was Apaches.

Fimbres, a ruthless latter-day Indian fighter, was motivated by vengeance:
Apaches had stormed his Sonora ranch in 1926, killing his wife and
kidnapping his infant son. His "Fimbres Apache Expedition," bankrolled and
promoted by publicity-hungry businessmen in Arizona, drew more than a
thousand trigger-happy volunteers. The mercenary force even boasted its
own airplane to spot elusive Apache camps.

"It was billed as sort of a gentlemen's safari," Meed said.

The Mexican government, more alarmed by the prospect of armed gringos
overrunning its northern frontier than by hazy reports of renegade Apaches,
squelched the gung-ho crusade before it began. Worried about casualties,
American diplomats heaved a sigh of relief.

http://www.swanet.org/zarchives/gotcaliche/alldailyeditions/97aug/310.html

[Moderator]

74. kick to combine

[Jilly Beans]

75. Immigration Opponents (Civilians!) To Patrol U.S. Border

Immigration Opponents To Patrol U.S. Border
Rights Groups Condemn 'Minuteman' Protest

By Amy Argetsinger
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, March 31, 2005; Page A03

LOS ANGELES -- The call went out last autumn the way they do these days, in Internet forums and forwarded e-mails: Are YOU interested in spending up to 30 days along the Arizona border as part of a blocking force against entry into the U.S. by illegal aliens early next spring?

The men who put out the call -- a small-town Arizona newspaper publisher and a retired Southern California accountant -- were frustrated by what they viewed as the federal government's inability to police its vast desert border with Mexico. So, they argued, why not enlist volunteers to help?

The Minuteman Project, set to begin tomorrow in Tombstone, Ariz., had no trouble finding any. About 1,300 people are expected to show up for some part of the month-long protest, say the organizers, who hope to place them at half-mile intervals to monitor a 23-mile stretch of border said to be the most porous in the nation.

snip/

But the project's unexpected popularity is raising serious safety concerns among federal and local officials and watchdog groups fearing it will attract extremists or spark violent confrontations. Postings about the event have been spotted on white-supremacist Web sites, and fliers from hate groups have been found in mailboxes in recent days.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14164-2005Mar30.html

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

76. Most of these right wingers are men with big mouths and little dicks

I expect their 1300 to dwindle to about 13 when push comes to shove..about the size of a freeper rally.

[lenidog]

80. Just a couple hours in the middle of the desert under

the Arizona sun will dampen their enthusiasm.

[beevul]

85. Heh...

It was sunny and 78 here (southern AZ) today...I don't think it will be that hot.

[strategery blunder]

87. Oh, summer's a comin.

This might last about a month or so before all the freepers melt.:)

[beevul]

92. True that...

though I am hoping it will stay cool for a while yet. With all the rain we have had, and all the greenery we usually don't get but did this year, combined with the odd weather thus far this year, it just might. /crosses fingers


Not for them, but for myself and fiance. We just bought a farm (we tell everyone we bought-the-farm in nebraska). Sounds grand, but it was 20,000. We are moving out of yuma, selling our house,paying off our debts, and getting out from under housepayments. All in one shot. Nebraska might be a bit boring compared to here, but its time for us to get out of debt. Times seem to be getting tougher.

We'll be leaving in mid june, so I hope it isn't too hot by then...I have had enough of the 115-130 degree heat, and I dread moving during it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. Hmm so what happens

when one of these idiots opens fire against one of them dark skinned and kills them? Did I mention a kid taking care of goats? It has happened before, but usually by people in official capacity

Ah yes, Interanational Law matters not.. I forgot...

[knowbody0]

79. shame on usa

i imagine the volunteer lists are a mile and a half long. sigh

[vpigrad]

78. Typical gun owner...

they get one of those things then they want to go out and find something to kill.

[lenidog]

82. That would be a typical redneck gunowner

Mine haven't caused me to kill anything or to go looking for anything to kill.

[beevul]

86. Ok, you made the assertion.

"Typical gun owner...they get one of those things then they want to go out and find something to kill"


Now back it up, or retract it if you cant. Well, that, or look foolish. Your choice.

Shouldn't be too difficult, considering theres only...what...close to a HUNDRED MILLION gun owners in the USA. But what the heck...they're all the same, most of them, right? Or, maybe they're just all the same in "your eyes"?


There's a word for that.

BIGOTRY.

Truly disappointing.

Shame on you.

[vpigrad]

90. LOL, a 100,000,000 of those idiots?

How about you back-up that ridiculous claim! I bet over half of the people here don't know a single person personally that owns one of those things. Other than one cop, that owns only his duty weapon, I don't know anyone that still owns one one of those things.

[beevul]

91. Well, its been widely accepted that...

there are 80 million gun owners...for about 3 years now...How about I restate it as 80 million plus?

As to the rest...You can't be serious.

I think your just pullin my lariat. p

[apple_ridge]

94. I can say that I don't know very many

people that don't have at least a couple of guns in the house.

[fasttense]

96. My husband and I won two rifles. On for hunting and one is his

great grandfather's antique. Do we count as one of those crazies?

[NYC]

81. Vigilanteism.

This is vigilanteism.

If more border enforcement is needed, perhaps the government should increase taxes to pay for increased border patrol.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

83. Perhaps we should spend all that dough protecting our nation

instead of bombing others for their oil and letting Halliburton loot the treasury to rebuild :wow:

[AlCzervik]

84. That kind of crazy talk will get you a weekend stay in gitmo.

[beevul]

88. How?

"This is vigilanteism"

They are going to watch the border, and call the BORDER PATROL if they see any illegal crossings.

How does that constitute "vigilanteism"?

[NYC]

89. If they don't do anything but make a phone call,

it won't be vigilanteism.

[Realityhack]

95. If / But

If they only make a phone call its about the equivilent of a neiborhood watch and probobly not even a bad idea....

But I for one fear that by the time this dwindles to the pople willing to go out there and they spend the afternoon under the sun (probobly drinking and ranting about how terible illegals are) that after (or even before) that phone call (especialy if response is not "prompt enough") that this could lead to some serious vigilantism.

I think that is EXACTLY what the law enforcement people who are conserned about this are thinking.

Groups that opposed to immigration are not exactly known for their calm demenor and considered appropriate response to challenges.

/ Realityhack

[salin]

100. Call it a fear of something horrible likely to happen

its in the preconditions.

Whipped up fear and anger - a motivation for some to do the volunteer work.

Whipped up fear and anxiety over who dangerous the situation is.. this fear fed by govt and admin allies talking about the likelihood of terrorists slipping through the Mexican/US border.

I certainly don't think all who will participate are likely to act as vigilanties. However, I do think that the recruitment targetted some folks who might harbor a bit of vigilanteistic tendencies.... esp when fuelled by the presupposition that they are doing what the govt isn't willing/able to do... that fuels two types of emotions in some folks... first a sense of authority (eg since they can't do the job- as a loyal American I will do it for them) as in an implied sense of being populistly "deputized"; and/or an anti govt feeling (they aren't doing it!!!!) which can be accompanied by a "therefor 'their' laws don't apply to us.'

So how do the good folks - control the fringe who might get a little trigger happy given the preconditions?

It just sounds like a tragic "mishap" is waiting to happen.

[Stockholm]

93. How come no one has started a counter project?

welcoming the refugees?

Surely, getting 1,300 people out of the 49 Mn who voted against * can´t be impossible? Lining them up face to face with the xenophobes.

[oneighty]

97. Guest workers

Bush* will not like this. Must have cheap laborers to do the jobs American workers are too lazy to do and a lot cheaper too, and to drive down labor costs and to break the unions most especially the evolution anti-god teachers.

Guest workers are welcome additions. Those that are so willing can join up in the worlds greatest army, get citizenship, protect our oil lying under foreign soil that God put there for us and the guest workers going into the worlds greatest army will delay (Delay?) the draft for another year or so.

SARCASM with a hint of the truth rant.

180

[tyedyeto]

99. So now, they're calling it a protest?

"About 1,300 people are expected to show up for some part of the month-long protest, say the organizers, "

That's the first time I've heard it called that.

I fear for the safety of anyone who is legitimately in the area they are 'patrolling'. My s/o is working very close to the border in the Bisbee area and I hope that these yay-hoos only do what they say - Report and not intervene.