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highplainsdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 10:25 AM
Original message
Bush Panel in Broad Agreement to Cut Investment Tax (Bloomberg)
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aSFl4i3juOew&refer=us#


Bush Panel in Broad Agreement to Cut Investment Tax (Update1)

Oct. 11 (Bloomberg) -- The financial-services industry is poised to emerge a big winner from the recommendations of President George W. Bush's tax advisory panel, where a consensus is building to eliminate or reduce taxes on investment income.

The panel holds its second-to-last meeting in Washington today to hone its final recommendations, due to be delivered to the Treasury Department by Nov. 1. Panel members said in interviews they have reached a broad agreement to make it easier and less costly for Americans to invest in financial markets.

"All of us would like to get taxes on investments to a reasonably low level, particularly dividend and capital-gains returns," said member Bill Frenzel, a former Republican congressman from Minnesota who is now a scholar at the Brookings Institution in Washington.

Tax policy experts say there have been indications since the panel formed in January that at least one of its recommendations would favor reducing taxes on investment income rather than wages.

<snip>



Read it all -- it makes it very clear that this panel is committed to shifting the tax burden downward.
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halobeam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
1. relentless bastards... they really need to get kicked out....
DAMN.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. relentless is key here. They are working behind the scenes while we
burn.
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BillZBubb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
2. I am shocked!!!! Shocked I tell you...
Who would have thought a Bush appointed wingnut panel would recommend lowering taxes on unearned income????

More tax breaks for the wealthy! Just what the economy and budget needs!

The real question is will the sheeple fall for it again.
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indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
3. Everything they do tax-wise shifts the tax burden downward: it's job #1
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
4. Well, It's getting painfully obvious-- give it away to the rich,
Anyone else feel like there is an inside job going on that will result in the collapse of the Union?


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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Wouldn't this be very tough on retailing and agriculture?
Who would invest their money in the inventory of a grocery store with a 1-4% return, or invest in seed, fuel, fertilizer, equipment maintenance to put plant the next years crop?

Those people with similar marginally profitable business operations that are based on investing in inventory, or up front "seed money" would have incentives to buy securities getting the profit helping tax break.



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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
5. Well, this ought to pump up the stock markets nicely. nt
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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
6. Typical Banana Republican politics
... ``This board is very heavily weighted to make sure people of wealth don't pay any taxes,'' said Calvin Johnson, a former Treasury Department official who is now a law professor at the University of Texas in Austin. ``They're all committed to shifting the tax burden downward rather than upward.''

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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
7. Let's review: Increase taxes on homeowners by eliminating or reducing
mortgage interest deductions.

Decrease tax on investor class by reducing or eliminating dividend and capital gains taxes.

Check. Lucky this guy has a down-home accent and manner, or I might begin to believe he's a self-enriching oligarchic bastard engaged in class war against 90% of society.

Do you know how much stock one has to own to make liveable income from dividends, tax or no? :rofl:

Eat it up, Bush voters making less than $500,000 a year. You earned the grand violent ass-fucking of the century. Maybe you'll lose your house and car: at least you can provide comedy for the rest of us as we take the violent ass-fucking along with you.
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kostya Donating Member (769 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. exactly what I wanted to say, kick n/t
:kick:
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
10. one of the ways to pay for this? Cut corporate tax breaks for health insr.
Yep - stop giving tax incentives for employers to give employees health insurance. Who wins - those with enough $$ for investments that the tax difference is very sizeable. Who loses - those who have health insurance through work - and don't have an extra 5,000 to 10,000 a year to spend funding their own health insurance.
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
11. But my dear friends.....
An nvestment dollar is worth so much more than a lowly dollar earned from, how droll, working for a living....

Therefor, it must attain special status....
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Bush_Eats_Beef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. And don't forget this very important point...
When the wealthy make money, they invest that money into the economy by creating jobs, which benefit us all.

:sarcasm:

I can't WAIT to hear Bush's stump speeches for the "National Sales Tax" ("Fair Tax")...

"Hey, stretch...insteat of GIVIN' your hard-earned money to the IRS, you get to KEEP IT ALL, until you spend it...that way you can save and invest and put your kids through college"...

Never mind the fact that the N.S.T. calls for a tax on RENT and MEDICAL VISITS and ALL SERVICES.

Never mind the fact that many in the middle and lower class spend MOST of what they earn to LIVE, so under a N.S.T. they will either buy LESS to save MORE (which will REALLY "help" the retail trade) or they will spend ALL that they have and will get LESS...while Bush's "base" will have a NICE, FAT chunk of UNTAXED income left over after THEY "consume."

"What a great lookin' group of people...the "haves" and the "have mores" Some call you the elite. I call you my base."

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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
12. Here we are at a time when the deficit is astronomical, and
national commitments are astronomical, What is the bu$h regime talking about? Cutting more taxes for the wealthy?
A time when we can't met the commitments of the federal government they want to steal more from the treasury.
:wtf:

Dirty bastards, all of them.
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UpInArms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
14. insiders inside ever more tightening circles?
also from your link:

Rossotti, a senior adviser at the Carlyle Group, a private equity firm in Washington, said yesterday he never considered his role as a Merrill Lynch director to be a conflict. He said he was appointed as a ``private citizen'' and that any businessman serving on a part-time advisory panel may face the same types of potential conflicts of interest.

Rossotti was named a Merrill director in July 2004. He began acquiring the company's stock in April, according to filings with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission. He's acquired more than 10,000 shares and options since then as part of his director's compensation.


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Bush_Eats_Beef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
15. Bush: "I'm not sure how big the national sales tax is going to be..."
From Bruce Bartlett:

"You know, I'm not exactly sure how big the national sales tax is going to have to be, but it's the kind of interesting idea that we ought to explore seriously," Bush said, according to a Reuters report.

August 09, 2004, 8:47 a.m.

A National Sales Tax No Vote: The rates would be vastly higher than what you might suspect.

House Speaker Dennis Hastert created a flurry of excitement in Republican circles the other day when it was reported that he is proposing the abolition of the Internal Revenue Service in his new book. This would be accomplished by eliminating all existing federal taxes and replacing them with a national retail sales tax. There is no indication of what tax rate Speaker Hastert thinks would be necessary to replace all federal revenue. A current proposal by Rep. John Linder (R., Ga.) says that a 23 percent rate would be adequate. But such a low rate can only be sustained by making completely absurd assumptions about what would be taxed. Every serious economist who has ever looked at this question has concluded that a vastly higher rate would in fact be needed.

An unstated assumption is that the 23 percent rate proposed by Linder is comparable to existing state and local sales taxes, where the tax comes on top of the purchase price. Thus, a 5 percent sales tax on a $1 purchase comes to $1.05. But that’s not the way the Linder plan works. He deceptively calculates the rate as if the tax is part of the purchase price. He calls this the tax-inclusive rate. Calculating the rate the normal way people are accustomed to with state and local sales taxes would require a 30 percent tax rate, not 23 percent. When Congress’s Joint Committee on Taxation scored the Linder proposal four years ago it estimated that it would actually require a tax-inclusive rate of 36 percent, not 23 percent, to equal current federal revenues. Calculating the rate in a normal, tax-exclusive manner would mean a 57 percent rate.

Economist Bill Gale of the Brookings Institution notes that supporters of the sales tax assume that there will be no tax evasion under their proposal and that the size of government will not grow, even though they would send a large annual check to every American in order to offset the regressivity of the tax. Making realistic assumptions, Gale estimates that the tax-inclusive rate, comparable to Linder’s proposed 23 percent rate, would actually have to be about 50 percent. A rate comparable to existing sales taxes would be close to 100 percent. And let us not forget that state and local sales taxes would come on top of the federal sales tax, pushing the total rate even higher. Obviously, the federal government is not going to impose tax rates this high, nor would anyone pay them if it did. There would be a massive tax revolt.

From Nancy Pelosi:

http://democraticleader.house.gov/press/releases.cfm?pressReleaseID=701

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
September 23, 2004

Pelosi: ‘National Sales Tax Would be Burden for Middle Class Americans, But Boon for the Wealthy’

Washington, D.C. -- House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi held a news conference in the Capitol this afternoon with Congressmen Charles Rangel of New York, and John Spratt and James Clyburn, both of South Carolina, to denounce a Republican plan for a national sales tax. Below are Pelosi’s remarks and a fact sheet about the proposal:

“Today, we are here to highlight one of the many clear contrasts between Democrats and Republicans: Republicans want to undermine our American values of prosperity and fairness with a new national sales tax of at least 30 percent and as high as 50 percent or more on all goods, including homes and cars.

“A national sales tax would be a burden for middle class Americans, but a boon for the wealthy. Families with children would lose their current tax deductions, and seniors would essentially be taxed twice.

“This proposal is ludicrous and should be dismissed outright. Yet Speaker Hastert wrote about the national sales tax and the flat tax in his new book, saying ‘both of these ideas are worthy of consideration.’ And Majority Leader Tom DeLay is co-sponsoring the bill, and has said: ‘It is high time the debate about the flat tax and a national consumption tax moved out of Washington think tanks and into American living rooms. That's why I have signedon to Congressman John Linder's proposal to scrap the current tax code altogether and replace it with a national sales tax.’

“The Republican plan would make it harder for middleclass families to make ends meet. A national sales tax would undermine the American value of prosperity. For example, cars that cost $20,000 would cost an additional $6,000 under this proposal. Just wait until the car dealers hear about this proposal. Prescription drugs that cost $100 would now cost $130. New homes, insurance premiums, brokerage fees, and gasoline would all be heavily taxed to replace revenue brought in by the current tax system.

“It would wipe out our system of progressive taxation. A national sales tax would undermine the American value of fairness.

“The American people should be aware that the Republicans’ primary tax agenda is a new national sales tax.”

The Republican Plan to Raise Taxes on the Middle Class

All over the country, middle class Americans are being squeezed byRepublican policies that have lost 1.7 million private sector jobs; allowed the price of health care, education, and gas to skyrocket; and created record deficits. Now Republicans are proposing a new national sales tax that would increase taxes for the typical middle class by about 50 percent. Democrats know that approach is wrong. Instead of raising taxes on the middle class, Democrats have pledged to promote prosperity and fairness by enacting middle class tax relief, creating new jobs, and eliminating tax loopholes so all Americans pay their fair share.

GOP SALES TAX HIKES A FAMILY’S TAX BURDEN BY 50 PERCENT

The new GOP national sales tax would replace all personal and corporate income taxes, Social Security, Medicare, and payroll taxes, and gift and estate taxes with a new national sales tax on goods like groceries, clothing, new home sales and apartment rents, and health care services. This new GOP tax would be applied on top of existing state sales taxes. This proposal would increase taxes by about $3,200 a year for 80 percent of taxpayers, and potentially more for some families.

MIDDLE CLASS FAMILIES SQUEEZED AGAIN

Families with children. Families with children are hit the hardest, as this proposal would eliminate all the current law tax benefits for these families, including the child tax credit. A middle class family with four children with a combined income of $65,000 would face an increase of more than $5,000 in their tax liability.

New homeowners. The Republican tax hike proposal would eliminate the tax deduction that families get on their home mortgages and apply this new sales percent tax to the cost of a home. If a family buys a new house listed for $150,000, the new tax brings the actual purchase price to $195,000.

Jump in property taxes. The Republican sales tax hike would require states to send an additional $300 billion to the federal government in sales taxes – a tax increase that states would immediately pass on to residents. Arkansas, Delaware, Kentucky, Hawaii, and New Jersey could all see property tax increases higher than 400 percent. The lowest state property tax hike possible – in New Hampshire – would still be more than 70 percent.

Gas and electricity. The average family would pay an additional 60 cents a gallon for gasoline – a new tax that will hit families in rural areas particularly hard. Families with large home heating or cooling bills also will be harmed.

SENIORS FACE NEW TAXES

Beneficiaries pay twice for Social Security and pension benefits. Most Social Security benefits and a portion of pension payments are exempt from income tax. But this proposal requires seniors to pay the new sales tax – meaning that seniors are now being taxed twice for their Social Security, once when they pay the payroll taxes and again when they pay the sales taxes.

Threaten Solvency of the Medicare Trust Fund. Medicare would be required to pay the new sales tax as well, forcing the program into insolvency in five years. If this proposal were enacted, Medicare would run out of funds in 2009.

Undermines pension coverage. The new GOP sales tax hike would reduce the incentives employers currently get for offering their employees a pension plan. The American Academy of Actuaries has concluded that “pension plans would quickly diminish in number and size and gradually disappear” if a consumption tax, such as the national sales tax were enacted as a substitute to the current income tax.

From The National Retail Federation:

http://www.nrf.com/content/default.asp?folder=press/release2005&file=NRST-comments.htm&bhfv=2&bhqs=1

Retailers File Comments Urging Rejection of Consumption Tax

WASHINGTON, D.C., June 13, 2005 - The National Retail Federation today announced that it has filed comments with the President's Advisory Panel on Federal Tax Reform urging the panel to reject economically risky proposals to replace the nation's income tax system with a consumption tax or to add a new consumption tax on top of existing taxes.

"The United States should not experiment with a brand new tax system that will put our economic future at risk," NRF said. "It is better to engage in substantial reforms of the income tax that are designed to eliminate some of the major complications in the current Internal Revenue Code and stimulate economic growth without causing major economic dislocation."

NRF's remarks came in response to proposals for tax reform that were presented to the Advisory Panel during a series of hearings this spring. The panel asked for public comments on the proposals last month.

NRF on Friday submitted a detailed statement outlining the dangers of various consumption tax proposals. The statement addressed the National Retail Sales Tax proposed by Representative John Linder, R-Va., plans for a Value Added Tax similar to those used in Europe, and other consumption tax proposals.

The NRF statement cited a study commissioned by NRF in 2000 that found that a national sales tax would bring a three-year decline in the economy, a four-year decline in employment and an eight-year decline in consumer spending. The study showed that similar results could be expected if other types of consumption taxes were enacted to replace the current system.

NRF argued that consumption taxes are inherently regressive because low-income families spend virtually their entire incomes while wealthier families have larger percentages of unspent income that would go untaxed.

NRF particularly urged the Advisory Panel to reject proposals to maintain the current tax system while adding a VAT or other new tax that would be used to pay for programs such as Social Security or health care. Doing so would amount to a tax increase rather than tax reform and would provide lawmakers with "a money machine" to finance increases in government spending, NRF said.

From Roth & Co:

http://www.rothcpa.com/archives/cat_tax_reform.php

June 02, 2005
I DON'T THINK HE LIKES THE 'FAIR' TAX

The "Fair Tax," a proposal for a national retail sales tax, has gotten some attention in the tax reform debate. Joseph Thorndike, a columnist for Tax Analysts, isn't quite sold on it:

First, though, we have to sort through an embarrassment of riches: How can we identify the worst quality of a tax that has so many? As numerous critics have pointed out, the Fair Tax would raise too little revenue and prompt too much evasion. Its popularity depends on unreasonable assumptions and misleading descriptions. It would never work as advertised -- a fact that many of its supporters either choose to ignore or secretly celebrate.

But other than that, maybe he likes it.

WHAT IS THE REAL RATE?

Mr. Thorndike points out that the 23% rate touted by Fair Tax supporters is misleading, because it is a "tax inclusive" rate. The 6% tax rate we Polk Countians are accustomed to is "tax exclusive" - it isn't included in the sales tax rate.

Example:

Wally buys a new computer for $1,000, and he pays $60 in sales tax. His "tax exclusive" rate is 6%. His "tax inclusive rate" is 5.66% (60/1060 = 5.66%).

If you compute the "Fair Tax" the way we are used to talking about sales tax rates - tax exclusive - it will apply at a 30% rate. That's a real difference.

Perhaps we are biased, being income tax consultants, but the Fair Tax seems to have some huge practical problems. Two come immediately to mind.

WHEN RATES GET TOO HIGH, PEOPLE CHEAT

Sales taxes are only likely to work if rates are low enough to not interfere with commerce. When combined with state and local taxes, the Fair Tax would burden every trip to Git 'n Go with a 36% or higher surcharge. This is high enough to push many transactions into the E-bay economy.

HIGH SALES TAX RATES THREATEN BUSINESSES THAT COLLECT SALES TAXES

Taxpayers going through their first sales tax audit are astounded at how big the assessments can be. They also know that they aren't as simple as many folks believe. While income taxes are only a problem to the extent your business is profitable, sales taxes apply even when you are losing money, and they apply based on gross receipts - a much larger base than taxable income.

Because sales taxes are computed on a big base, a small error in determining what transactions are subject to tax can lead to a stiff assessment over three years, even at a "low" 6% rate. At a 36% rate, even little errors would be ruinous.

FAIR TAX PROSPECTS?

Mr. Thorndike doesn't think the Fair Tax will survive the tax reform process:

And the winner of this year's prize for Worst Idea in a Serious Public Policy Debate: the Fair Tax. In all likelihood, this plan for a national retail sales tax has already exhausted its 15 minutes of fame. Sometime later this summer, President Bush's commission on federal tax reform will probably put it out of its misery.
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jayfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
17. Alright!
More money that will never make it into the economy. Is it time to sharpen the pitchforks yet?

Jay
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Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. Sadly... no - n/t
n/t
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jayfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. How About This Then?
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
18. I've read enough...
this looks like rehash of that supply-side crap that should have a stake through its heart.

If you give investors more money, they will only invest in places that give them the best return, or what they think will be the best return. That does NOT mean that they will "create jobs." Jobs are created when there is work to be done, and there is no guarantee that all this money will find work that needs to be done. And there is even less guarantee that any work will be done in this country. Economic growth comes ultimately from consumer demand, and consumers paying more for stuff with no more money in their pockets does not create demand.

There is absolutely no bar to even small investors getting into "the market." Mutual funds, investment clubs, employer-sponsored retirement plans, and discount brokers abound for anyone who wants to take what they pay for lottery tickets and an extra coffee or two a day and invest it properly. There are even those strange things called "savings accounts" to help build up am initial investment.

Blecchh... Ignorance and untrammelled greed have destroyed more civilizations than all the wars and natural disasters combined.






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Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. Right on! Enron gave great returns... for a while
Don't seem to remember it doing much for the economy though and dispite employing people I would not call it a good thing.

Best returns are probobly from places farming the jobs out over seas anyway.
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
19. ...favor reducing taxes on investment income ...
... at least one of its recommendations would favor reducing taxes on investment income rather than wages.

At least one...

What a surprise coming from the bushies.
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sakabatou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
20. More money for the rich
sickening
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
21. There are some Democrats who ran for president last year who believe this.
I just want to check here, though. No democratic voters believe that this is right, right?

I believe that investment income should be taxed at low rates....IF YOUR INVESTMENT INCOME IS LOW!!!

If your investment income is high, it should be taxed at higher rates -- just like progressive earned income taxes are progressive.
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
22. There are some Democrats who ran for president last year who believe this.
I just want to check here, though. No democratic voters believe that this is right, right?

I believe that investment income should be taxed at low rates....IF YOUR INVESTMENT INCOME IS LOW!!!

If your investment income is high, it should be taxed at higher rates -- just like progressive earned income taxes are progressive.
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
23. WTF???? They want to take mortgage deduction and prop tax deduction..
. but CUT THE FUCKING INVESTMENT TAX???? WHAt is WRONG with those people??? Man, the republicans are some nasty ass cruel heartless greedy pigs. :grr:

Geez.. wake the fuck up America!! You're being screwed every day.
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dolstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
24. Terrific, another tax cut I won't be getting
Of course this should come as no surprise. Bush and the right-wing Republicans have never hidden the fact that they want to replace our current income tax with a tax on wages. So the Paris Hilton's of the world who live of trust fund investment income will never have to pay a dime of taxes, while the rest of us see a larger chunk taken out of our paycheck.
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phiddle Donating Member (749 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 07:04 AM
Response to Original message
28. So, where is the progressive alternative?
starting with, say, taking the caps off of the FICA (SS-Medicare), treating all income equally, and higher personal exemptions.
Damn, I get tired of playing defense while the right wing always has the ball!
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