Some Doubt Seriousness Of Terror Scheme Described By Bush

[sabra]

http://www.courant.com/news/nationworld/hc-bush0210.artfeb10,0,3963401.story?coll=hc-headlines-nationworld

Some Doubt Seriousness Of Terror Scheme Described By Bush

WASHINGTON -- Several U.S. intelligence officials are playing down the relative importance of an alleged al-Qaida plot to strike the West Coast after Sept. 11, 2001, cited by President Bush Thursday in defense of his campaign against terrorism.

...

The intelligence officials, who declined to be identified because they did not want to criticize the White House publicly, said there is deep disagreement within the intelligence community over the seriousness of the scheme to attack the 73-story building and whether it was ever much more than talk.

Bruce Hoffman, a terrorism specialist with the Rand Corp., said Bush's account still leaves key questions unanswered.

"It doesn't really give us any more indication of whether this was a plot that was derailed or pre-empted, or a plot that was more in the realm of an idle daydream," Hoffman said.

[tanyev]

1. Some People Say that George Bush is full of crap.

[MichiganVote]

39. Smart people KNOW George Bush is full of crap

[sattahipdeep]

2. questions unanswered

The defense has subpoenaed Rep. Curt Weldon, R-Pa., the House Armed
Services Committee vice chairman, who in a House speech on pre-9/11
intelligence failures revealed that a secret military data-mining
operation code-named Able Danger had identified four of the
19 hijackers, including leader Mohammed Atta, as al-Qaida operatives
a year and half before the attacks

"The congressman is inclined to cooperate and is consulting his
attorney and the House general counsel," Weldon's spokesman, John
Tomaszewski, said Friday. "No final decision has been made."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/02/04/ap/national/mainD8FHV3PG6.shtml

"This trial is a circus" :hi:

[MissMillie]

3. "I'm telling you this so that you will be very afraid... and hand over

to me all the power that I want to 'protect' you."

[Ecumenist]

4. Doubt the seriousness??

Is a frog's ass watertight? It's just the latest in a long line of transparent lies from the Chump in Chief and his cabal.

[goose4739]

5. That's what I want to know...

The local media whores here in L.A. are reporting everything as fact, but isn't this just more bullshit from Shrubco? Even our mayor Villaragosa had the cojones to say that it all came as a surprise to him! Considering that Chimpy does nothing but lie and lie and lie, isn't this just a convenient story to tell as more scandals continue to erupt around him?

[calimary]

8. That's what's so shitty about this. The very fact that we have a so-called

"pResident" whose word we don't believe. Whatever he says - we immediately suspect as lies. If his lips are moving.

A President of the United States is supposed to be above all that. One of the best and brightest of us. One on whom we can rely - in both word and deed. Whose word is his bond, and worth solid gold. Whose word you can take to the bank. With this asshole, it's - ...loot the bank. And then take a wrecking ball to the bank building. And then say some sinister-looking guy in a beard and a turban did it.

[u4ic]

47. Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[Webster Green]

6. They foiled the plot, but don't know the name of the building?

Yeah, OK Chimpy.:rofl:

[0007]

41. Was there one of those colored coded alerts when this was

suppose to happen?

[Bob3]

7. no, really? You don't say?

Is the the part were the terrorists were going to use flying monkeys to high jack the plane that some people are questioning?

[hvn_nbr_2]

11. I think it was the part where the terrorist was going to blow off his feet

and blow up the airplane, then stroll into the cockpit on bleeding stumps of legs, and fly the blown-up plane into some building that we don't know the name of and that from the news footage looks like it's surrounded by other tall buildings so he was really going to have to dive almost straight down on the building with the blown up plane.

[sui generis]

13. and no legs

or lips or eyelids

[AnneD]

29. And don't forget...

the cabin would probably depressurize once the shoes went off. I can just see this guy asking the overworked flight attendant to put his stinky shoes near the cockpit. Honey, there are more holes in that story than there are in a wheel of swiss cheese.

[Piscis Austrinus]

58. Depressurization would be a problem indeed

Seems to me that the guy would have to toss his shoe at the cockpit door, then make sure he was strapped in. The shoe would have to be powerful enough to blow open the door without being powerful enough to breach the plane's fuselage. (If the fuselage gets breached, no one's getting past the hole into the cockpit - they'd get slurped out into the atmosphere.)

So - say the guy is able to get the door open without a fuselage breach. Now he has to get to the cockpit itself. Is it reasonable to assume that even five guys would have their hands more than full trying to fight through the first-class compartment to get there? Remember, the shoe wasn't powerful enough to do more than blow open the door, so I have to assume no more than minor injuries among the passengers. So - we have a bunch of post-9/11 passengers on a plane that clearly has had an explosion, who see one or several guys rushing for the front. Anyone here think those guys wouldn't be physically ripped limb-from-limb by the passengers? I don't. The only thing Homeland Security would have needed to do with those guys would have been DNA-testing and possibly dental matchups to figure out who they were.

But let's say the guys actually manage to (1) open the door without damaging the fuselage and (2) get past a horde of passengers who are likely to be both desperate to stop them and furious enough to kill them. They then have to hope that the shoe that took out the door also took out the pilots. I don't think they'd just stand by and let those guys take the controls. But! If the shoe took out the pilots along with the door, then how flyable will the plane be? How much damage would have been done to the flight control system?

And, assuming all of this somehow works itself out, you've basically got semi-neophyte pilots attempting to fly an aircraft into a building more or less surrounded by other fairly tall structures. And they have to make it there while resisting the (even more) furious and desperate passengers.

No. Freaking. Way.

Either this was a pipe dream that someone cooked up within the hearing of someone in the CIA/NSA/Homeland Security Dept., or it's a whole-cloth crock of shit. Either one.

It doesn't matter which, since - if this is the best Bushco can use as an example of thwarting terror threats, then the threat is probably being, ah, somewhat overstated.

Peace
PsA

[rodeodance]

35. yes, that part was beyond odd, yet i have not heard one news reporter

even bring it up!!!!

[Tight_rope]

9. No shit Sherlock!

[dubya_dubya_III]

31. No, Noe Schitt-Sherlock

[Lindacooks]

10. After 9/11 there is NO WAY terrorists would think of using planes again.

Because passengers wouldn't allow it. The reason 9/11 worked in the first place is because we treated hijackers with kid gloves. Now everyone in the plane would rush the hijackers and foil the plot.

This is just more lies from chimpy.

[sui generis]

12. Oh yeah, and why wait this long to unfurl this new mission accomplished

banner?

Anyway, lest anyone be confused. Bush did not do this to appease us. He did it to appease his own base.

He doesn't give a flying pre-owned turd what we think.

[dubya_dubya_III]

32. just what was that mission?

To ensure that the inflammation of hatreds between the earths major religions over Jerusalem escalates and further polarizes the entire planet over a stupid and ridiculous turf war in Palestine that's lasted, largely thanks to us, for 60 years is further extended until all time and yet ever-greater horror forevermore?

[DinahMoeHum]

14. Story from Capitol Hill Blue today on this subject. . .

http://www.capitolhillblue.com/blog/2006/02/intel_pros_say_bush_is_lying_a.html#more

(snip)
Outraged intelligence professionals say President George W. Bush is "cheapening" and "politicizing" their work with claims the United States foiled a planned terrorist attack against Los Angeles in 2002.

"The President has cheapened the entire intelligence community by dragging us into his fantasy world," says a longtime field operative of the Central Intelligence Agency. "He is basing this absurd claim on the same discredited informant who told us Al Qaeda would attack selected financial institutions in New York and Washington."

Within hours of the President’s speech Thursday claiming his administration had prevented a major attack, sources who said they were current and retired intelligence pros from the CIA, NSA, FBI and military contacted Capitol Hill Blue with angry comments disputing the President’s remarks.

“He’s full of shit,” said one sharply-worded email.
(snip)

more...

:smoke:

[Kagemusha]

15. It's Capitol Hill Blue sadly. I doubt anyone said this to the press.

But man, I have total faith that people are thinking it.

[54anickel]

22. So was this another one of Curveball's tales - discredited informant? n/t

[mainer]

55. Tom Ridge is now doing a Brownie?

And turning against Bush? I didn't know that.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

16. "Doubting Thomas" Here

The timing of this announcement, as well as the fact that this supposedly happened 3-4 years ago has me SERIOUSLY questioning this whole story. I don't generally believe much (if anything) that comes out Bushco's mouth(pieces) in the first place. If this happened back then, I'm almost certain that Bush would've really played it up back then and I'm almost certain that the terror level would've gone up and the MSM would be running the story on an endless loop, especially since it supposedly happened during an election year. Him bringing this up now, even if it DID happen, seems......bizarre, especially since this particular plot does not appear to have been foiled by using any extraordinary means (i.e. torture, wiretapping, etc.). With Bush aggressively defending his "surveillance" program and his other newfound "powers" as Commander-in-Chief, you would think that he would point out a case where he used one of these "powers" and it worked to our advantage to help build public support for accepting them. If anything, the story actually seems to support OUR arguments that the best way to counter terrorism is by working collaboratively with other countries, something that hasn't exactly been Bushco's way of dealing with foreign policy and terrorism, which is another reason that information about this "foiled" terror plot sounds suspicious. Also, from what I've heard, there is little or no public information as to how far this particular plot advanced like in the Padilla case, so we're not even sure WHAT actually was going on and whether or not we were actually in any danger AT ALL.

[dubya_dubya_III]

45. "tell them they are being attacked"...

Fact is the lame copycat plot supposedly foiled may well have been a forced confession. It was an Indonesian 'lead'. Far far more troubling is the fact that the mayors and governors of the state have been kept completely in the dark about the details of the threat. and then it should pop up 3years later in a condescending "send 'em a letter" sort of manner.

The Shrubs's new "Fatherland" Security apparatus seems to be deeply and horribly flawed as well. Dedicated Agencies like FEMA worked better with an attentive President, the new super-centralized Czar's control panel appears to have been out on vacation..

"The role of the Gestapo was to investigate and combat "all tendencies dangerous to the State." It had the authority to investigate treason, espionage and sabotage cases, and cases of criminal attacks on the Nazi Party and on Germany." =Wikopedia


Even paranoids have enemies, but secrecy sucks.

[WinkyDink]

51. Bush is finding out that being Der Fuhrer is hard work!

All he wanted was the uniform!

[Piscis Austrinus]

59. I agree and welcome to DU

This would probably have come out no later than the 2004 election, when Chimpazoid was slipping in the polls in August, or at the GOP convention.

More evidence that this is a non-story. (Well, it's another Bush lie, but since when is that news?)

Peace
PsA

[The Stranger]

17. Required Viewing:

The Power of Nightmares

[twaddler01]

20. Nice

and true!

[reprobate]

25. Thanks Stranger. I've sent it to all on my email list.

This totally explains where we are today, and the lies our government built to control us.


BTW, I've been told I'm the Strangest. Hope this doesn't mean copywrite infringment.

[TankLV]

52. I just finished watching it in it's entirety. Very powerful & frightening

We MUST get rid of these fearmongering assholes NOW in whatever means possible, that's for sure.

I wasn't surprised to see the repukes all over the place, but nice clip of Kerry parroting the fear card. I almost forgot about that. That's the main reason I want to see no more of him in any presidential bid. He had his chance. He blew it for me. Flip side of the same coin. He always said he'd do the same thing but "better". Better than the repukes - you bet - but not by much.

The current crop of politicians, except for a few, have NOTHING to run on but fear, and I for one am tired of it all.

[Wordie]

18. Keith Olberman now drawing explicit parallels to 1984...

See this DU thread:
"MSNBC Analyst: Bush Politicizing Terror Threats to Manipulate Public"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x379882

[rodeodance]

36. I will have to wait for CT

[Wordie]

38. Here's the quote, rodeodance...

OLBERMANN: We have talked before with deep sadness about the politicizing of counter-terror measures here. You have just put this into a political context. My stomach is queasy as I ask this. In the context of this today and what you have seen, are we far enough removed from that component of the novel "1984" - the part where the government turns a kind of terror faucet on and off to scare the public in to acquiescing to whatever wants to do?

POSNER: I'm afraid that we are unfortunately at that point. ... the government is also very effective, the Bush Administration, at using terror as a political weapon an making sure it can turn on the "fear spigot" when it wants to and turn it off at other times.

There's a DU thread on it, here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x379882

[twaddler01]

19. Some people use their heads nt

[daleo]

21. I think it was a bit of cheap political theater

To convince people that there was some big advantage to letting the government eavesdrop on their every communication.

[dysfunctional press]

23. Hijackings became a thing of the past in the U.S. on 9/11/2001.

NO pilot,
NO flight crew,
NO planeload of passengers,
is EVER going to allow it to happen again...(but if they do- they deserve whatever they get).

and the terrorists know this as well as anyone- they won't be using/attempting that tactic again, as it would be doomed to failure, and as such a waste of time and resources.

[nolabels]

53. Yet first you must be willing to fly and believe it really happend

What sense does make to get into a plane and fly when there is plenty of good terra-firma to stand on all around?

[dysfunctional press]

54. believe what really happened?

what sense does it make to get into a plane and fly...?

hmmm...well- it IS the safest form of mechanized transport available- MUCH moreso than cars...and it's quick- a LOT less time coast-to-coast than driving...and, considering the price of gas, insurance, maintenence, etc.- flying is generally A LOT cheaper than driving a comparable distance...

So- safer, faster, cheaper...what sense does it make to get in a plane and fly...?

Plenty.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The_Casual_Observer]

24. If bush said it it's either a lie or it's intended to screw the common man

In this case it was a lie.

[shantipriya]

26. Plot

Because of all the lies of this Admin. ,it is hard to believe anything they say.

[rocktivity]

27. What do you mean "SOME doubt," paleface?

He didn't get the name of the damn target right! And if it's supposed to be an example of warrantless domestic spying working, it doesn't answer the question of why they coudn't have gotten the same results WITH a warrant!

:rofl:
rocknation

[skypilot]

28. So...

...an unnamed southeast Asian nation "saved" us? Is that the jist of it?

[dubya_dubya_III]

30. I like the 'cleaning fluid' horse crap :-)

Myself, I seriously doubt any malfunction or false indication of some nondescript cleaning fluid caused the evacuation of the Congressional office building on the 2nd news night after the Coretta King funeral debacle.

The sensors used (highly sophisticated, not the converted CD player cheap-o's) could only ever possibly be fooled by a specific mildly 'radioactive' aerosolized substance. I know of no version of Mr Clean, Pine Sol or Fantastic, and certainly no form of perfume, common plastic out gassing, deodorant or any other office, commercial or commercial product (even mixed with anything I've been drinking!) that could produce such a specific glowing radioactive flourophosphate. That substance; Diisopropylfluorophosphate, the precisely targeted specific chemical indicator 'model' chosen to indicate all varieties of nerve gas, cannot be environmentally present in any normal domestic atmosphere. As a generic lab grade chemical, it is a controlled substance, and it is also very widely available as described below:

"Diisopropylfluorophosphate has been used in ophthalmology as a miotic agent in treatment of chronic glaucoma, as a miotic in veterinary medicine, and as an experimental agent in neuroscience because of its acetylcholinesterase inhibitory properties and ability to induce delayed peripheral neuropathy. It is known as fluostigmine and Dyflos in such uses."

Couldn't a certain someone have tripped those sensors deliberately?

nah

[pinniped]

33. We're really in for it now.

This farce obviously didn't work.

* has to escalate the fear dial up a couple notches.:scared:

[rodeodance]

34. Jr just leaked out enough to put some fear in many-AGAIN.

[dubya_dubya_III]

37. We have nothing to fear, but fear of tyranny :-)

[Auntie Bush]

60. We have nothing to fear but bush*...who scares the hell out of me! n/t

[dubya_dubya_III]

49. fight fire with fire

[HockeyMom]

40. ON 9/11 Yes, After NO

I distinctly recall that local New York media reported on 9/11 that there were 8 planes hijacked on 9/11.

So, if an attack was planned for LA on 9/11, I could believe that. AFTER? Forget it. NO WAY.

Bush is just using the FEAR angle, once again.

[dailykoff]

42. He would know. (n/t)

[DeadManInc]

43. I have no doubt the this is a steaming

pile of lies. He is just trying to drum up support for his illegal activities.

[RagingInMiami]

44. Two words

"Liberty Tower"

[johnnyrocket]

46. Some? Is 60%+ of the population the definition of some?!

[Tight_rope]

48. Are the sheeple finally waking up!

[WinkyDink]

50. "Some"?! How about, "Some people breathe what they call 'air'."

[Thor_MN]

56. Bush claims terrorist thought up shoe bomb plan before door was protected

How long did it take for the cockpit doors to be armored? Dumbass is claiming this plan was for October 2001, so unless this was thrown together in a month, the preparations and training are circa 9/11 or before. I know the * admin pulls their plans out of their ass as they go along, but it seems to me that the training for terrorists is a long, slow process. I don't see them planning for armored doors before the concept has ever been thought of.

It sounds too Rovian to me, pull together a bunch crap that was all over the media and weave it together into a flower - turd blossom style.