Pakistan cartoon protesters riot, burn KFC

[bif]

LAHORE, Pakistan - Thousands of protesters rampaged through two cities Tuesday, storming into a diplomatic district and torching Western businesses and a provincial assembly in Pakistan's worst violence against the Prophet Muhammad drawings, officials said. At least two people were killed and 11 injured.

Security forces fired into the air as they struggled to contain the unrest in the eastern city of Lahore, where protesters burned down four buildings housing a hotel, two banks, a KFC restaurant and the office of a Norwegian cell phone company, Telenor

U.S. and British embassy staffers were confined to their compounds until police dispersed the protesters, some of whom chanted, "Death to America!"

Witnesses said rioters also damaged more than 200 cars, dozens of shops and a large portrait of President Gen. Pervez Musharraf. Vandals broke the windows of a Holiday Inn, Pizza Hut and McDonald's.

Two movie theaters were torched, and clouds of tear gas and black smoke from burning vehicles outside Citibank and Metropolitan Bank branches drifted through streets in the city center

More:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060214/ap_on_re_mi_ea/prophet_drawings

[WildEyedLiberal]

1. Fuck this shit

Seriously, fuck it.

[bif]

3. Yeah. like the U.S. had anything to do with it.

They just love shouting "Death to America!"

[jobycom]

5. You never really believed they were rioting over a cartoon, did you?

The media sucks.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

7. There's another agenda

that has nothing to do with the cartoons. I think what you are seeing is really a reaction against the current Pakistani government, with its strong ties to the US. There are minority parties in Pakistan that are patterned after Hammas, and they need to keep things stirred up to bolster their base.

[jobycom]

10. I agree. The cartoons are just the explanation our lazy media fixates on

Keep it simple for the stupid American masses. That helps BushCo justify war against these "silly, unreasonable people," or whatever the quote from Lawrence of Arabia was. We're being played, the demonstraters are being played. All part of the game of starting a war.

[WildEyedLiberal]

12. I'm sorry

No one is making them riot. I don't really care WHY they're rioting, but it's been going on for a week now, and quite frankly, burning shit and shouting "Death to America/Infidels/Denmark/Whoever" is just reinforcing the idea that they are "silly, unreasonable people." I don't have sympathy for violent protests against much of anything, whether it's a cartoon of Mohammed or a protest against general U.S. policy. I don't want war with Iran, I want negotiations - but let's face it: this is a dangerously fundamentalist extreme religious sect which does NOT value freedom, human rights, or dignity. A woman in Pakistan last year was gang-raped by the order of a tribal council as a punishment for the crime of her brother. Salman Rushdie, as far as I know, is still under a fatwa for writing a book critical of Islam. This crap is riduclous and out of hand.

[jobycom]

13. And American presidents have slaughtered millions of Indians, so

I don't understand why 20 year old fatwah's in Iran or gang-rapes in Pakistan have to do with anything. I'm sure if you count up the number of innocent people slaughtered by insane tyrants in the last 200 years America would be higher on the list than Muslims, so that makes you more a part of a "dangerously fundamentalist extreme religious sect" than any Muslim.

You ask the questions Bush wants you to. Instead, ask how come if they are so wrong and we are so right we have slaughtered half a million of them in the last 15 years (not counting sanctions) and they've killed only a few thousand of us? Who is insane? Who is the most dangerous? Who are the irrational ones? What do you really believe they are protesting against--a few squigly lines on paper, or a generation of our white supremacy treating them like pesky insects?

WE do not value freedom, human rights or dignity. We only use those words to spread our racist hatred throughout the world, often with bloody force, same as we did to the Native Americans. Same excuses, even.

[Boojatta]

16. Where is this race card coming from?

What do you really believe they are protesting against--a few squigly lines on paper, or a generation of our white supremacy treating them like pesky insects?

WE do not value freedom, human rights or dignity. We only use those words to spread our racist hatred throughout the world...

Does the dividing line between North and South Korea separate two different races?

Why does the US allow Koreans, Arabs, Jews, and others to immigrate and become US citizens? Is that all just part of a smokescreen?

Next will you tell us that anti-Chinese riots in Indonesia were somehow instigated by the US government? Or perhaps an International Zionist Conspiracy is to blame?

[WildEyedLiberal]

17. I don't understand why one can't condemn the actions of extremists

Without something like this coming up. Did I defend the deaths of people as a result of bad US policy? Why must I automatically pick one or the other as the "most evil"? Where did I defend war against the Middle East? Why is it always assumed that there would be no hatred or strife if it weren't for the United States? I reject that construct. Why does the existence brutal US policies excuse the barbarism of fanatic Islam?

Maybe gang-rape is irrelevant to you because you aren't a woman. Maybe I can understand the evil of those societies more readily because I see what is done, on a daily basis, to women, that is NOT done in America or Europe. Do you really think a society that condemns blasphemy with death is a just society? Western civilization used to be driven by religious fanatics too, and the only reason there has been human rights progress in America and Europe is because of the secularization of the state. Theocracies are bad and promote hate and violence. Why is that so controversial?

[jobycom]

24. I don't understand where your comments come from

I haven't defended anything, I've made three points: One, America is more insane than any Islamic nation. Two, these protests are about a lot more than the cartoons. Three, the media and BushCo are using these riots to whip America into a frenzy for, or at least acceptance of, war, or some other violent objective.

The rest is your rant, but I will say I find it very bigoted. As for gang rape, it's a damn good thing it doesn't happen in America, isn't it?

[WildEyedLiberal]

27. Now it's bigoted to reject religious extremism?

WTF?

Religious fundamentalists = bad. Theocracies = bad. I don't see what's so controversial or *bigoted* about that, but whatever.

[LivingInTheBubble]

34. Iran is a democracy.

They may not have elected who *you* would prefer but thats one of those pesky problems with democracy.

[WildEyedLiberal]

35. Theocracy is when religion and state are inseparable

That is the case in Iran. Theocracy and democracy do not have to be incompatible. Calling it a democracy does not imply that there is freedom of expression.

[AngryAmish]

38. Iran a theocracy

Unelected ayatollahs approve all candidates and can veto any law. They control the secret police.

[coda]

40. No, it isn't.

Monday January 26, 2004

Hardline body rejects Iran electoral reform - MP

TEHRAN (Reuters) - Iran's hardline Guardian Council has rejected a proposed electoral reform aimed at reversing the bans on hundreds of liberal candidates from standing for parliamentary elections next month, a reformist deputy said.

Iranian parliamentary deputies voted on Sunday to change the country's electoral law, in a clear act of defiance of the conservative watchdog that has banned thousands of candidates from running in February's parliamentary election.

The Guardian Council has barred nearly half of the 8,200 aspiring candidates from the February 20 poll, mainly allies of reformist President Mohammad Khatami, including 80 of the standing 290 members of parliament.

The proposed reform to the electoral law said candidates given the green light in previous elections could not be blocked unless a full legal justification was submitted. This would have saved the candidacies of many disqualified deputies.

[INDIA]

54. "America is more insane than any Islamic nation"

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


Wow! You better pack your bags and move to Pakistan FAST! Things are too Insane here!

[smirkymonkey]

26. Hear, hear.

Very well put. I feel exactly the same way, but have not been able to put it so articulately. :thumbsup:

[INDIA]

20. Good post

Yet another lame attempt to defend indefensible actions. We are in modern times, Islamic culture is not.

[jarjarbinksisgod]

45. as an Indian myself...

I'm offended that you would stoop so low as race-bait. oh wait, you meant Native Americans. regardless, i'll give my semi-coherent rant. burning down KFC has only to do with one thing: batshit crazy religious lunatics who make excuses to commit violence. that our "country" may have perpetrated what you believe are comparable acts (but seriously, please show me where american civilians have gone apeshit over a cartoon, cuz i can't find an example) does not excuse these lunatic islamofascists from doing the same.

[iverglas]

46. but seriously

that our "country" may have perpetrated what you believe are comparable acts (but seriously, please show me where american civilians have gone apeshit over a cartoon, cuz i can't find an example) ...

Hmm. Invading two countries who had committed no aggression and killing many thousands of people, in response to the acts of a dozen or so people unrelated to those countries or the people in them and the resulting deaths of fewer than 4,000.

And that's just in this century, and just the major offences against just a couple of countries/peoples in just two places in the world.

Talk about apeshit over-reaction, eh? Who said anything about a cartoon, anyway?

The people with their hands over their ears going wah wah are the ones saying it's over a cartoon; you seem to have joined them so that you could avoid the entire point of the post you replied to: that it ISN'T over a cartoon. In so many ways.

... does not excuse these lunatic islamofascists from doing the same.

If only all you folks making these self-righteous and largely self-evident pronouncements about what is and isn't excused and justified could find anyone here who had said that it WAS, all those pronouncements might occasionally have been worth making.

I really do wonder whether it's time to ask whether the grievances of a few rich white men over some taxes they objected to justified or excused killing anybody. I suspect it's only one's own grievances that ever justify that kind of thing.

[jarjarbinksisgod]

47. self-righteousness?

on a political message board, rife with debate? perish the thought! :eyes:

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

14. Let's remember, though,

that these people are still in the minority. And the MSM is doing its very best to highlight those who are the most violent, often not explaining the real reasons behind the riot. The woman who was gang-raped, btw, sued her rapists and won in a court case in Pakistan. She has written op-ed pieces in the Times and has spoken out against the cultural bias against women. The rape, btw, is in no way condoned by the Qur'an or Islam. Actions like that gang rape have been condemned by many Muslims around the world, but of course you never ever hear about this via the MSM. Until I pointed it out, many DUers didn't even know about the statements made by American Muslim groups condemning terror; I'm wondering how many saw the post about the German Muslims saying there was indeed a Holocost and that the Iranian president should stop his hate speech.

[WildEyedLiberal]

18. She did sue, and win

I shouldn't have left that part out. I do know Muslims in America and Europe are completely unlike the fanatics and condemn the violence and rapes. I guess my point is that as long as these countries in the Middle East are theocracies, nothing will change. Theocracies promote hatred and violence. I don't think being Muslim makes one more or less inclined to violence than being Christian or Jewish, but I think theocracies such as exist in Iran and, let's face it, all across the Arab world, promote these riots and hatred of non-Muslims. Europe was the same way in the Middle Ages - how much hatred and violence was committed in the name of Christianity and Christians? I don't think Muslims are any different, and there is nothing that is keeping the Middle East from modernizing and moderating as Europe has done, but the creation of a secular state is vital. Theocracy and freedom/human rights are NOT compatible. Turkey, though far from perfect, is an excellent model for predominantly Muslim states to follow. By rejecting the rule of the imams, Turkey has created a moderate Muslim state that does not suffer from the same symptoms of religious extremism as do other countries in the Middle East.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

21. People who live in repressive states are more inclined to

violence, I believe, because they have no legitimate outlets for their grievences. Let's also remember that many of the people who are rioting, etc, don't have the education level of folks here in the West, and also a limited access to news. We've seen how easily many Americans are manipulated, so the fact that repressive ME regimes are manipulating their populations should not be a surprise.

What is needed, of course, is a balance where religions are allowed expression in society but where they are not allowed political power. Repressing religious expression by a secular state may well backfire. You mention Turkey; recently, they have had a teacher fired because she insisted on wearing a headscarf in the streets. She always took it off when she entered the school, but the Turkish government said this wasn't enough. This incident has been used to foment anger towards the government by religious parties, and I don't think that is good. (BTW, my Sufi brothers and sisters in Turkey are not allowed to worship, and their ceremonies, which are freely practiced here, are banned. Funny thing is that the modern Sufi shaykhs I know draw a strict line between religion and politics-and this includes Turkish shaykhs.)

[WildEyedLiberal]

23. I agree

I didn't know Turkey repressed religious ceremonies. That's not truly freedom, either - true secular freedom allows all to worship what they will while promoting none. Repressing religion is an invitation for a backlash of conservative, reactionary religious elements, which defeats the entire purpose of secularity.

Thanks for your interesting posts.

[iverglas]

37. here's an actual point

The sexual assault of women happens all over the world. I understand it's been happening to some members of the US military in Iraq. A whole lot of men in the world commit sexual assaults against women, and behind all of them is a desire to exercise power over individual women, and often over women in general and/or the communities they belong to, by committing the assault, forcing a pregnancy, terrorizing the rest of the community, and to make it known that they have control over the victims, women in general, the communities, etc.

The reasons for wanting that power and control may vary, but one or more is always there. They may be personal, they may be political, they all come down to wanting, asserting and exercising power.

Incidents in which women are sexually assaulted to enforce some standard that the assaillant(s) wants to enforce are no different from any other sexual assaults. The people who commit them are evil, and any agenda that they claim to be pursuing is either evil in itself or ill served by what they do.

To single out some particular incident and condemn it, as if it were worse that all the millions of other incidents of sexual and other assaults against women that happen around the world ever day, might demonstrate an agenda as well.

Of course all right-thinking people condemn the sexual assault of women for any reason, in the service of any agenda, by anyone.

But if I dredged up a vicious sexual assault of a woman by a group of African-Americans in a discussion of the Rodney King riots ... and started yammering about how we must not tolerate the violent actions of a mob who, by the way, belong to the same ethnic group as that bunch of guys who viciously assaulted that woman ... well hmm, I wonder long that post would stay here.

Europe was the same way in the Middle Ages - how much hatred and violence was committed in the name of Christianity and Christians?

I'd venture to guess that most of the violence in North America today is committed by Christians. Including vicious sexual assaults of women.

The fact that some people who are Muslim claim to be enforcing religious rules when they assault women does not mean that the sexual assault of women is part of Muslim theology, or part of the culture in which it happens (any more than it's part of North American culture, at least). No more than any Christian man beating the crap out of his wife or children in North America and saying that his religion gives him that instruction, and that right, does.

In any event, it is always the choice of individuals to behave the way they do. They may claim that some belief of theirs justifies or calls for their behaviour. So what????

I can denounce the behaviour of men who assault women without even knowing what their religion or ethnicity is. Why do I need to drag their religion into my denunciation? They can claim religions justification -- I can say I don't care, and that's all I need to say.

There seems to be no basis for thinking that anyone involved in the violent demonstrations that have succeeded the publication of those materials have committed assaults on women. So why on earth would anyone drag such things into the discussion? And even if they had, how would pointing that out be a response to their objections to what was published?

Doing that seems to be pretty much the same as what a lot of people object to about those materials in the first place: targetting the hundreds of millions of people who believe in something instead of the people who are doing something intolerable that they claim to be justified or instructed by that religion. "They" do such-and-such, so we get to say whatever we want about them.

They don't do any such thing, and that's the whole damned point.

[meganmonkey]

19. And listening to the corporate media's take on this whole mess

whole knowing full well who they work for is pretty silly and unreasonable, IMO. Also knowing that our gov't and the European RW are beating the war drums against Iran and essentially trying to create WWIII in the Middle East...Please put this in an historical context and recognize that this is NOT about cartoons, that the VAST MAJORITY of protesters are doing so peacefully (but not getting any media coverage because, well, that's just boring). That the violence is being incited by Western political extremists (like the publisher of the Danish paper that deliberately commissioned these inflammatory cartoons) as much or more than by Muslim extremists.

I really recommend reading this guy's take on the situation.

http://akramsrazor.typepad.com/islam_america/2006/02/jp.html#comment-13560684

Peace.

[iverglas]

41. thanks for the link!

Good one. Same stuff as many of us here have said many times, essentially, but from a more informed perspective in terms of the situation in Denmark.

And also from that site:
http://akramsrazor.typepad.com/islam_america/2006/02/hypocrisy_of_ca.html

with some other wise words (these are in translation):

... commentary from another Danish politician from the ruling party (who, according to herparliamentary bio, happens to be the daughter of a pastor, for what that's worth), Birthe Ronn Hornbech:

It goes without saying that Muslims in Denmark must also accept that they've come to a country with freedom of expression. It goes without saying that a country with freedom of religion is also a country with freedom to critique religion. But drawing Muhammad with a bomb in his turban obviously has nothing to do with serious religious critiques.

We didn't get freedom of expression to offend each other merely for the sake of offending others. ... Far too often, {the invocation of} freedom of religion has has been guided by an uncivil desire to introduce personal grudges into both press articles and reader responses.

It is as if freedom of expression had been sancitified as some kind of fundamentalist religion whose purpose is to promote the demonization of others. Muslims are demonized in particular by the childish expection that since there are some Muslims who we think behave strangely or immorally, that all Muslims need to understand how {much better} we are.

... Demonizing isn't just primitive and stupid. Demonization increases minorities' difficulties in understanding our society and heightens their feelings of marginalization. And that is lethal.

It could be of momentous consequence for our country if we don't quickly grasp the risks in a situation where large groups residing in Denmark feel marginalized and seek comfort in the most extreme forms of religious fundamentalism which reject democracy.

That's something I see a lot of hereabouts: all Muslims need to understand how much better we are.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saigon68]

56. adios

[PsychoDad]

48. A woman in Pakistan last year

A woman in Pakistan last year was gang-raped by the order of a tribal council as a punishment for the crime of her brother.

The woman's name is Mukhtar Mai.

She was gang raped because she stood up to defend her brother, she embarrassed the village elders by knowing more about Islamic law than they. They did this to "put her in her place".

The high Sharia court of Pakistan sentenced her attackers to death.

Mukhtar Mai has taken this tragedy and turned it into a chance to do good by creating an organization to teach other village women their rights under Islam and the Law. Perhaps you would be interested in helping her cause.

As for "fatwas", they are only opinions. Pat Robertson issues fatwas that call for someone's death every month or so.

Think many Christians are compelled to obey Pat's fatwas?


Peace.

[pinniped]

2. Condosleeza claims Pakistan is our ally.

They wouldn't have burned KFC and the other joints had they known they were US corporations.

Uh oh, maybe the people want a regime change.

--Witnesses said rioters also damaged more than 200 cars, dozens of shops and a large portrait of President Gen. Pervez Musharraf.--

[gratuitous]

4. Uh oh, torched a KFC AND a McDonald's?

Looks like Pakistan is about to take Iraq's place in the Axis of Evil if Musharraf doesn't do something about this tout de fucking suite. Sure, you can blow up as many soldiers as you want, but don't mess with the Colonel or Ronald baby!

[tatertop]

6. I wonder how long Musharraf will be in power

Seems he walking a fine line between appeasing the US
and inflaming his constituents.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

9. I think this violence is more of a warning to Musharraf

than to protest anything in particular. Check out the minority fundamentalist parties in Pakistan. To maintain their hold on their followers, they have to keep up the hate mantra.

[NoPasaran]

8. They hate us for our Freedom Fries!

[Critters2]

36. !

:rofl:

[superconnected]

11. something tells me they hate us for our policys

and corrupt deals, corruption in the World bank, what we've done with NAFTA (okay thats this side of the globe but are we any better on that side).

Bet they know the only thing we want is oil and cheap labor with no regulations, if we could get it.

We invaded a soverign nation that was no threat to us, we're threatening to invade others. We do look like the seat of muslim hatred for our invasion policys. And we are supporters of israel who has treated the palestinians(waranted or not) pretty bad for decades.

Gee, I don't think GW is good at foreign policy, which contributes to this too.

We don't believe in the Geneva Convention, the United Nations, or Anti-torture laws, as far as they can see.

And we're out raping and pillaging mideast oil, from their POV.

I'm not worried about the riots actual damage, because we get the same thing here in florida and LA. I am worried because the riots are international and in several different places.

[fujiyama]

32. I don't think half those rioters

even know of something called the "World Bank".

I'm somewhat tired of excuses for this ridiculous violence and behavior. Religion and politics don't mix. In the Muslim world that mix has proven to be explosive. We don't tolerate the idea of a theocracy at home. Why should anyone justify it abroad?

And BTW, I have seen no posts on this thread condemning all Muslims on it. They have condemned extremist groups, and the governments of Muslim countries but none painting all Muslims as violent.

[Mr. Mojo Risin]

15. Perfect Timing

I say we plug them while they are all rioting together. Easy Targets. But please keep ol' Dead Eye Dick away. He's liable to blast the scurrying KFC workers.

[yurbud]

22. Is nothing sacred? Save the slaw and some drumsticks.

[Redstone]

25. Fucking brilliant, people. Any questions why you're a thrid-world country?

Burning down a Pizza hut sure will teach those Danes a lesson, won't it?

Redstone

[WildEyedLiberal]

28. Stop being bigoted

:sarcasm:

[Redstone]

29. You're right...sigh. There ARE people here who think that's a LOGICAL

thing for them to do, and we just have to "understand their anguish."

Though, maybe they DID have some anguish...stale BreadStix maybe?

Redstone

[WildEyedLiberal]

30. LOL

One time I got olives on my supreme at Pizza Hut DESPITE my explicit request to the contrary. I. HATE. OLIVES.

I should've burned the place to the ground, just to teach those sonsabitches not to fuck with my pizza.

[superconnected]

31. I doubt anyone thinks it's logical, so much as it's just to be expected.

It wasn't logical when the la riots people burned down their own neighborhood. It never is.

It wasn't logical in the Seattle WTO riots for people to break through windows etc.

People just get caught up in it. Since I've seen it before, I expect it now.

I'm not going to condem all muslims for it.

[Redstone]

43. I'm certainly not condemning all muslims, either. Just the stupid ones.

Redstone

[CGrantt57]

39. Pakistan cartoon protesters riot, burn KFC

BASTARDS!!!

We should teach them not to fuck with the Colonel!

This calls for NUKES!!!

:silly:

[Yavin4]

42. Maybe Our Cultures Cannot Mix

Maybe the West should leave the Muslim as is. Our attempt to make the entire world into little Americas is fool's errand fraught with peril. Maybe we should respect the culture of the Islamic world and withdraw from their region instead of trying to coerce them into accepting our cultural standards of freedom.

To us a cartoon is no big deal, but to millions of people of the Islamic faith it is a huge deal. So, maybe we should learn to respect each other's culture and leave each other alone.

[Boojatta]

44. What happens if SETI picks up a signal from another galaxy that

mocks all the religions on Earth?

[Moderator]

49. Kick

[bemildred]

50. Mobs rampage in Pakistan

We seem to have civil unrest in Punjab and Islamabad too, now.

More than 70,000 protesters in Peshawar have burnt a fast-food restaurant, offices of two mobile phone companies and three cinemas as violence continues in Pakistan for a third day over the Prophet Muhammad cartoons.

al Jazeera

[PsychoDad]

51. This much rage is over more than some cartoons

It's an uprising against a dictatorship and the west that supports him. The cartoons were only a flash point.

Peace.

[varun]

52. Musharraf gains from these riots

Bush is going to Pakistan in March. Musharraf looks "sane" compared to these rioters, and can ask for more military and economic support from Bush to quell these "uprisings".

I think Musharraf and the Pakistani military has a hand in instigating these riots.

[PsychoDad]

57. I don't know....

Maybe as long as they can be controlled. The problem here is if the riots turn against Musharraf, escalate and gain popular support.

If that should happen, Musharraf will get to see things from the same viewpoint as the Tsars and the Shah.


Peace.

[rfkrfk]

53. blasphemous cartoons have been seen on the inside of chicken boxes

torch the chicken stands

[tedzbear]

55. Karma revenge of the chickens!!!!

:bounce: