Study: Prayer Has No Effect on Heart Surgery Recovery

[Roland99]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,189691,00.html

NEW YORK — In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.

Researchers emphasized that their work can't address whether God exists or answers prayers made on another's behalf. The study can only look for an effect from prayers offered as part of the research, they said.

They also said they had no explanation for the higher complication rate in patients who knew they were being prayed for, in comparison to patients who only knew it was possible prayers were being said for them.

Critics said the question of God's reaction to prayers simply can't be explored by scientific study.

:rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl:

[tocqueville]

1. the contrary is true too...

there are millions praying that Cheney gets a heart attack and it still hasn't happened...

[Olney Blue]

3. LOL

[Demeter]

12. I'd Settle for Electrical Failure

Either a short circuit, battery malfunction, or lightning strike--I'm not fussy.

[papau]

58. LOL - :-) - by the way this is a cross post of an earlier post in R/T

cross-post dupe of a Thu Mar-30-06 03:57 PM post in R/T

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=58644&mesg_id=58644

But this thread was fun to read also!

[ChairmanAgnostic]

2. but if you don't prey, won't their god turn a blind eye to them?

Oh, I'm so confused!

A null answer is unacceptable if it pertains to faith? I see.

[RaleighNCDUer]

4. Well, that makes sense to me.

If everything that happens is god's will, then who gave them the heart attack in the first place? By praying for them, you are trying to contravene god's will, so of course they have more complications!:dilemma:

[A Simple Game]

6. Simple, and concise.

Who said religion isn't logical.

[Roland99]

10. LOL!

[LiberalVoice]

41. If its gods will...

Then how can we be held accountable for our sins or rewarded for good deeds on the "day of judgement"?

Uh oh :P

[Dogmudgeon]

5. Mr. ROTFL is always there ...

... when suffering people are not helped by their belief in God.

It's sad enough that they rely on an illusion. It's sadder still that there are so many people willing to laugh at them.

--p!

[RaleighNCDUer]

7. The more people who laugh at illusions

the less sad it becomes.

[kiraboo]

55. Damn, that's deep! And so true... n/t

[Warpy]

8. Honey, if you want that prayer to work, you have to do your own work

Prayer, like chanting and meditation, can center and calm a person and promote healing. Some of this effect can be measured by equipment we have now.

It just doesn't work second hand.

Mr ROTFL is there for the deluded SOBs out there who think they can remote control anything through magical thinking.

I'm not surprised that the second hand stuff caused more complications. There was probably a spike in cortisol levels due to the patient's anxiety in feeling he had to live up to the well wishers' expectations, and cortisol delays healing.

[CTyankee]

9. Don't you think it was the more seriously ill patients

who would typically be prayed over? so they would be more likely to have worse outcomes than the less seriously ill (who didn't get as much praying). That just seems logical to me.

[blondeatlast]

22. Why are you trying to bring SENSE into this thread? An excellent point,

but it doesn't bolster anyone's position on the issue, so it will be largely ignored.

[Warpy]

30. We used to have to call the cops

on "prayer groups" who would barge into the hospital uninvited and go into patient rooms to mumble over the patients. I never saw it provoke anything but irritation in the patients, whether or not they were believers.

It was intrusion and unwanted.

The study assigned patients randomly. Go check it out.

[blondeatlast]

33. Yikes--as a many times hospitalized patient, that horrifies me.

Were these people requested by the patients? :scared:

I tend to throw my own family out after an hour or so.

[Warpy]

37. No, nobody requested them

They were fundies who were arrogant enough to think they could come into soembody else's hospital room, order god around, and control the situation. I think their motives were probably good, but you know what they say about hell and good intentions.

We never hesitated to call the cops as soon as we spotted them. Just telling them to leave didn't work. They were doing GAWD'S work.

[silverweb]

23. "...have to do your own work."

EXACTLY! I was going to post something like this about the documented benefits of meditation, etc, on one's own body. Glad I checked first so as not to duplicate.

These benefits of personal prayer, medidation, chanting, yoga, etc, aren't because of some out-there deity doing something TO you, but because you're tapping into the life force within yourself... whether you believe that life force is of some divine or universal origin or not.

"You have to do your own work."

Ramen!

[blondeatlast]

28. Excellent point; all too easily missed by both sides. nt

[The Stranger]

56. Now the image of that made me laugh heartily.

There was probably a spike in cortisol levels due to the patient's anxiety in feeling he had to live up to the well wishers' expectations, and cortisol delays healing.

Pardon the pun.

[AnneD]

66. A person with faith....

is accepting of what ever the outcome. ITA Warpy, it acts to calm and center one. There have been many studies on biofeedback and meditation. Self prayer is a modified form of these techniques. I can do biofeedback to lower my blood pressure, but it won't lower anyone else's blood pressure. I figure prayer works the same way.

Wonder if they studied a group that prayed for themselves and had others pray for them too. I don't think the designers grasped basic concepts.

[Roland99]

11. Mr. ROTFL is laughing at the bolded line in the OP.

[BuddhaGirl]

16. you know - whatever your spiritual/personal beliefs

are, there will always be someone who will call them an illusion. And they will laugh at you.

Having some compassion is not a bad thing. :eyes:

[blondeatlast]

18. I've survived a number of angoplasties and 2 TIAs.

I prayed like hell and I don't care what anyone else thinks about it. I'm here to raise and enjoy my 9 year old son whatever caused the positive outcomes==and having excellent doctors was the largest part of it, but I'm unwilling to discount hope entirely...

It saddens me to see DU make light of people who are grasping at any possible hope==I've been there all too often.

I thought we were above that.

Thank you for "getting it." I'm not sure why my quiet prayers for a good outcome affect other people so negatively that they have the need to comment about it.

I'm just sitting here crying because I'm so damn grateful to be alive.

[brentspeak]

40. The people who come here to ridicule things like this

have empty lives. Some of them are just trolls who waste their time here trying to cause division.

In the end, you can't accept anything anyone posts on a message board to be representative of the majority of posters.

[RaleighNCDUer]

42. Praying for yourself and praying for another are two very different

things.

The first is a form of meditation - whatever you call it, it taps into the same thing.

The second is magical thinking - wishing on a star or throw a coin in the wishing well.

Your prayers for your own health are no different than my meditations for my own. But prayers for another cannot affect the other, except for adversely. If some jackass was to come into my hospital room to pray over me it would send my blood pressure through the roof - not a good thing.

[alarcojon]

25. I agree completely

There's a strange disconnect here:

On the one hand are fundamentalists of all stripes who will ridicule everyone's belief but their own. This includes some atheists and agnostics, but are overwhelmingly members of some organized religion.

On the other hand are buddhists and others, who will cultivate the path of acceptance of all religious/spiritual beliefs.

While I may question the wisdom of funding this study, if the wingnuts had any decency or intelligence, they would just drop the whole thing.

[blondeatlast]

27. "decency or intelligence, they would just drop the whole thing." Exactly.

Sadly (and I'm speaking as a Christian here) IMHO, they posees neither. Even more, they lack the power of faith--so what is it they supposedly believe in?

If there is spiritual divinity in the universe, we aren't meant to understand it. Otherwise we could make sense of it.

The study itself is pointless--those who believe will, and those who don't will (justifiably, in this case) mock the study.

No one wins, and some intellectual talent was wasted to no discernible end.

[DanCa]

It seems to me that compassion and intelligence are a rare commodity today

And it seems like, for some, evolution is working backward.

[Skittles]

68. I would have more compassion

if they would stop trying to impose their silly illusions on me

[DanCa]

13. Delete Dupe

[DanCa]

14. Wait this is from fox news isn't it? (nt)

[pitohui]

15. gosh what was your first clue?

if god could be arsed to respond to prayers in the first place, who would let it get so bad they'd need a damn bypass operation

[DanCa]

17. Should I stop praying for a cure for Parkinson's Disease?

And should I stop asking god for the strength to continue fighting for a scientific cure for this damn disease such as Stem Cell Research? I am confused now.

[blondeatlast]

19. Absolutely not. Anyone who is offended by your grasping whatever

hope you can muster is in far sadder shape than you will ever be.

Trust me, as one whose faced my share of disease, I've learned that all too well.

Most DUers are far above laughing at the afflicted, but as in life, there are those who find light in other's suffering.

It takes all kinds.

[pitohui]

21. why for confused?

i had a friend who was a fundy, his thanks was that he developed cancer in his 30s

he told me himself that he was "praying to jesus" in that oncology office -- and then a light went on and he realized that "everyone there was praying to jesus"

if prayer did anything no one would be ill because a natural response to anything bad is to make these mental bargains

or as woody allen said, i must be god because every time i pray i notice i'm talking to myself

god has turned his back on us, he doesn't deserve our prayers in my humble opinion

i was ill and in pain for 2 decades, god did fuck-all, the storms came, god did fuck-all, god has a lot of explaining to do

i will not prayer or worship to such

[blondeatlast]

24. But why does DanCA's personaly prayer affect you?

I've been at death's door myself, and while I credit my excellent doctors almost completely, I would never be nervy enough to trample on whatever gives someone some hope.

Simply having hope, from wherever it's derived, can aid in the healing process, as I know all too well.

I would never presume to insist that others pray for me. Why is it seemingly okay for others to insist that I DON'T pray?

In other words, when did it become anyone else's business at all?!

[hedgehog]

26. If you're paying attention at all, you'd notice that Abraham's God is

not a vending machine - insert two prayers and get a miracle. The questions you're asking are the ones that inspired the Book of Job, and at the end the author could only say that the Creator is inscrutable. A Christian would answer that Jesus himself suffered and died, but add that he also rose again.

[alarcojon]

20. Gosh, where to start?

1) This is on the FOX website?!?!?

2) Notice the emphasis that they are not claiming to have proved that God doesn't exist. A gentle reminder to the freepers not to start trackin' em down.

3) of course God's reaction can't be explored by scientific study. And I'm sure :sarcasm: the fundies wouldn't be trumpeting this study to high heaven had it drawn the opposite conclusions. Why, that would be hypocritical of them! B-)

[Roland99]

31. Well, just because it's on Foxnews.com doesn't negate the study

They're just reporting it.

[alarcojon]

36. Of course not

I was just surprised at first that they seem to be the only ones reporting it. But when I thought about it some more, their fundie base were probably the only ones who knew or cared about the story in the first place. Still, I would have expected FOX to bury the story when the results disagreed with what the fundies wanted.

[0007]

29. I just love these studies!

[bee]

32. What a total waste of time & money.

Did they actually expect the prayed-for people to heal quicker? Seriously? :banghead:

[tenshi816]

54. Sure they did.

In fact, I've heard fundies say there are studies proving exactly that - that the power of prayer causes people to heal faster - and of course they always have anecdotal evidence (of the "my best friend's hairdresser's cousin's next-door neighbour had this happen to them" variety). The thing is, they never mention it when the praying doesn't work, and also never have access to any of the studies they refer to.

My stepmother watches Roma Downey's "It's a Miracle" and believes every second of it, particularly the "healing" segments. There are plenty of people like her out there.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

34. Prayer is not useless...

The method generally employed and the expectation of results is flawed.

We need to realize that prayer isn't a tool for getting stuff...whether we're asking for money, health, or the partner of our dreams; or asking on behalf of someone else.

Prayer isn't something we give to our various gods and goddesses because it pleases them. It's a coping mechanism for all aspects of existence...pleasant, unpleasant, and indifferent. It does not directly change the course of one's life. But because it can be used to liberate our minds from the desire to control our fortune, I suspect it can have a positive effect (or at least a non-negative one) on our physical health.

The compassion generated by keeping unfortunate friends and strangers in our thoughts can be a great source of comfort to all; and can be a wellspring of relief efforts for those who have lost jobs, homes and loved ones. Relating to someone else's suffering through prayer also can help us understand and deal with our own pain more efficiently.

Just my 2 cents. Flame away if it makes you feel better... :)

[RaleighNCDUer]

43. Prayer is nothing but a form of meditation.

If done right, it can be very powerful. Most people don't do it right.

I can meditate twenty-four hours a day, 365 days out of the year, and my meditation will not bring you enlightenment. Or health. Or relief of any kind.

You have to do your own work.

[VegasWolf]

35. It would be truly a miracle if anyone were surprised by this study!!! nt

[brentspeak]

38. That's a bad, misleading headline

The body of the article talks about how received prayer has not been shown to benefit patients. Received prayer has zero in common with personal prayer (which I know for a fact, does work).

[RaleighNCDUer]

44. There ya go. nt

[Roland99]

45. Well, a study should be done comparing....

prayer
meditation
breathing techniques
etc.


Although, they are all pretty much the same thing when you get down to it.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KittyWampus]

60. Also, the methods of prayer used here were DEEPLY flawed

1. prayer included patients who didn't specifically ask for prayer
2. prayer included an unnecessary and negative suggestion "no complications"
2. prayer did not include creation of any positive mental images

[mondo joe]

72. Prayer is deeply flawed.

"Oh you didn't pray just the right way."

"Oh you didn't pray for the right people."

[VegasWolf]

39. Does this mean that people will finally stop listening to Pat Robertson,

Jerry Falwell, Billy Graham, and all the other "miracle" workers. Maybe these clowns will finally lose their jobs, just like everyone else in Amerika!!

[deadparrot]

46. Study: Praying Won't Affect Heart Patients

NEW YORK - Does praying for a sick person's recovery do any good?

In the largest scientific test of its kind, heart surgery patients showed no benefit when strangers prayed for their recovery.

And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications. The researchers could only guess why.

Several scientists questioned the concept of the study. Science "is not designed to study the supernatural," said Dr. Harold G. Koenig, director of the Center for Spirituality, Theology and Health at the Duke University Medical Center.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060330/ap_on_he_me/prayer_study

[MurrayDelph]

47. So much for

"It couldn't hoit"

[brentspeak]

48. This is a dupe

The earlier thread is located just below.

[Bigmack]

49. Life is a crapshoot...

.. and people who are trying to find a "plan" or who think saying specific words to an Imaginary Friend are deluded.

[jumpoffdaplanet]

50. Perhaps people who know others were praying

And so, subconsciously, didn't pay as close enough attention to post-op instructions?

Might explain that slightly higher complication rate.

[JuniperLea]

52. Valid argument there, me thinks

I wonder how much better some would have come through had they been advised that your mind really does have effective control over your body.

[KittyWampus]

59. Good question- did doctors, nurses know who was recieving prayer?

[AnneD]

67. Probably not....

but had some of you known how many times I prayed to hit your vein on the first try and did....you'd have been praying with me. The worse the vein, the harder I pray and the more accurate I was at getting it on the first time.

[Fridays Child]

51. Controlling the variables would be difficult.

The specific condition of each patient and the documented rates of recovery for others with the same condition, average level of health and additional health problems of each patient, age, sex, family/friend/medical community support networks, access to information, education, diets and levels of exercise. I'm sure there's lots more that I can't even think of.

It all seems like a huge waste of money and resources. And I say that as someone who is deeply commited to science and research.

[KittyWampus]

57. Critique: 1.Patients didn't ASK for prayer 2. Prayer included negatives

#1. One of the first things one learns is to never offer healing energy to anyone unless they specifically request it. The initial part of the energy equation is when a person MAKES THEIR INTENT KNOWN, to themselves and then to others. The second part of the energy equation is for the persons involved to form a POSTIVE MENTAL IMAGE of desired outcome.

#2. The prayer used included an unnecessary and NEGATIVE suggestion at the end. The prayer words were "sucessful operation with full recovery and no complications". You never include a negative suggestion in any form when you are trying to effect an postive outcome. If you want to lose weight you say "I'm going to eat healthy" and not "I'm going to stop eating poorly". If they wanted the prayer to work and for patients to have a full recovery then it's counter-productive to say "and no complication".

Success in anything happens when you start by forming a postive intention and then follow it up with forming POSITIVE mental images.

The fact that those who knew they were being prayed for ended up HAVING complications when those praying were mentioning NO complications actually leads to the possiblity that the prayer did have an effect- a negative one due to the negative spin of the suggestion being made ("no complications").

The mechanics of energy relies on the fact our Subconscious mind is amenable to Suggestions from our Conscious mind and also to Direction from our SuperConscious mind. Hence, we must be careful as to what suggestions we implant into our subconsious and vigilant that we don't send negative suggestions as well.

3. The third element in the energy equation is for the Prayer to be charged with emotion from those issuing it as well as having a positive MENTAL picture along with it. Simply saying "full recovery" is not enough.
If you want to get the ball in the basket you can't just fling it carelessly. You have to WANT to get the ball in the basket and you have to SEE it go into the basket before launching it in the air.

4. The fourth element in the energy equation is for those who asks for energy input to BE RECEPTIVE to an influx of energy.

5. the fifth element in the energy equation is for those involved to maintain a confident expectation of a postive outcome.

[ecstatic]

69. excellent points...and thanks for dieting tip! nt

[Frangible]

71. Cites?

"The mechanics of energy relies on the fact our Subconscious mind is amenable to Suggestions from our Conscious mind and also to Direction from our SuperConscious mind. Hence, we must be careful as to what suggestions we implant into our subconsious and vigilant that we don't send negative suggestions as well."

The mechanics of energy rely on ATP produced from glucose used by mitochondria. You seem to be using the Freudian libido energy / id / ego / superego model (or something that seems close to it) which is pseudoscience at best. No offense, but it's just not a valid psychological model. I don't disagree with the general argument you're making in that a positive attitude is important, I just prefer to base the specifics on researched data.

A (brief) PubMed search turned up a couple relevant studies, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=6749944&query_hl=17&itool=pubmed_docsum being one of them, which mentions additional factors and the need to address individual concerns. I'm sure you could find some better examples of this with more time searching.

[mondo joe]

73. Since when are those requirements for prayer?

And your ball analogy is flat out wrong.

[superconnected]

61. Its interesting they are recognizing a negative effect.

meaning that prayer has an effect.

For the athiests this should be an unwelcome scientific finding. I thought you guys wanted to find prayer has no effect on reality. Then someone can claim a practical mind against believing in prayer. Instead athiests on this site who are happy this study reports prayer has an effect(negative or positive), don't seem to realize that puts you right up there with the believers, believing prayer has an effect.

There's a saying. "He doesn't so much not believe in God as can't stand the guy". That seems to be the only kind of athiest I can imagine who would take pleasure in a study that finds prayer HAS an effect - negative.

[superconnected]

62. and btw, the title was wrong for this news report.

Prayer was found to have an effect, negative.

[Kailassa]

63. No, prayer was not found to have an effect.

We are talking about a study of 1800 people divided into 3 groups of 600. Even if each group was as similar as possible, there will always be slightly different outcomes for each group. People are not machines, we are all different. And chance comes into it. If I pray before I'm dealt a poker hand, and I'm dealt a royal flush, that is not proof that god answered my prayer.

So we have the concept of "statistical significance" to help us analyse the results of experiments. If results are statically signifacant, then they are not likely to have occured by chance alone. But even a statistically significant result is not proof that the object being tested was the cause of the results. That's why most experiments are "double blind", with neither subjects nor observers knowing whether the object of the study is being tested on any particular subject. There is a well documented "placebo effect" that affects people being given treatments, and it's very easy for the observer to be unconsciously influenced by their wish to find certain results.

Before assuming the differences in results were the result of prayer you need to know that the difference was statistically significant, and that nothing else could have aused the difference. Even then, there is one more necessary test to a hypothesis. If the hypothesis is correct, other people will be able to replicate the results in their own studies.

[superconnected]

64. exactly right, on prayer has no effect.

" In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications."

I read it last night and should have re-read this morning before my comments.

[Zhade]

65. Um...duh?

Neither does wishful thinking.

Although anyone who wants to do either if I'm dying is welcome to - I'll take good thoughts, effective or not.

[Frangible]

70. Fact is, God's reaction could be explored by scientific study

The bottomline is that if God, or whatever diety you believe in, did use divine intervention to help heal someone you would see results. IE, they would live instead of die. All of the Biblical examples of healing are dramatic and instant and were quantifiable.

However, it should be abundantly clear in the case of Christianity that God isn't going to heal you. In Biblical accounts, Jesus and his disciples died pretty horrible deaths, and God did not intervene to stop them or ease their pain. Most of these beliefs come from the OT where the accounts record God being a much more "hands-on" diety.

You're going to suffer, and you're going to die. It's inevitable, whether you are religious or not. Of course, telling your friend in the hospital, "stop being such a pussy, it's not like you're being crucified, time to man the fuck up!" probably isn't going to do much for their sense of well-being or recovery either.

The effect of prayer here is that of meditation; the release of personal stress, in this case seeing someone you care about suffer. It does have a positive effect on someone's health, it's just not the person in the hospital's.

[muchacho]

74. I agree...let's not explore it any more...

What a waste of money...