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Masked gunmen kill 21 Shiite students (So-is this a civil war yet?)

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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 08:13 PM
Original message
Masked gunmen kill 21 Shiite students (So-is this a civil war yet?)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060605/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq;_ylt=AolwSAr0da.pXCFJAKl.8.Os0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--
Masked gunmen kill 21 Shiite students

By PATRICK QUINN, Associated Press Writer 12 minutes ago

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Masked gunmen stopped two minivans carrying students north of Baghdad Sunday, ordered the passengers off, separated Shiites from Sunni Arabs, and killed the 21 Shiites "in the name of Islam," a witness said.


In predominantly Shiite southern Basra, police hunting for militants stormed a Sunni Arab mosque early Sunday, just hours after a car bombing. The ensuing fire fight killed nine.

The two attacks dealt a blow to Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's pledge to curb sectarian violence. He again failed to reach consensus Sunday among
Iraq's ethnic and sectarian parties on candidates for interior and defense minister — posts he must fill to implement his ambitious plan to take control of Iraq's security from U.S.-led forces within 18 months.

Violence linked to Shiite and Sunni Arab animosity has grown increasingly worse since Feb. 22, when bombs ravaged the golden dome of a revered Shiite mosque in predominantly Sunni Arab Samarra.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. may I ask something and I don't want to sound ignorant
Edited on Sun Jun-04-06 08:37 PM by Skittles
but I really don't know - how do they know who is Shiite and who is Sunni? I don't understand the part about the IDs.
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TheCowsCameHome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. How do you tell them apart? Good question.
Evidently the gunmen know..............
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951-Riverside Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Anyone we can ask at AP, CNN, Reuters, BBC, etc?
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. there`s some answer`s
i`ve been reading the iraqi blogs and it seems that many gunmen use the first or last names ,the students may have been dressed differently, and the neighborhoods they live in.

here`s a young iraqi`s take on the situation in baghdad...http://baghdadtreasure.blogspot.com/
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951-Riverside Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Wow that is a chilling blog
Its only a matter of time before his life is snuffed out :cry:
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. yes he`s aware of that when his
friend called him in america and told him he may be a marked man.he was in america last nov and when he arrived back in baghdad and found out jill was kidnapped several days before. he had worked out of the same office and knew both of them....he was coming back to the states sometime soon but now he may not be able to do so
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Mz Pip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
2. BushCo would say it's a good thing
because it shows the desperation of the insurgency in its last throes. The more violence the beter it is for the Iraqi's freedom! :sarcasm:

Mz Pip
:dem:
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cantstandbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
3. The Iraqis just don't get it. This admin is happy to see them kill each
other. Doing the US job for them. When both the Sunnis and Shiites are weak enough, the US will hand the entire nation over to the Kurds.
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enigma000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. Why the Kurds?
I doubt they want to rule a mostly Arab country. I think the Kurds just want to get on with their lives living in peace and developing their oil industry.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
9. No, just random acts of genocide
:eyes:
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
10. It doesn't meet any definition of civil war that I have.
Perhaps there's one out there that it meets ...

Ethnic cleansing, terror, it can be many things. But I usually think of civil war as the attempt of a militia or army battling another militia or army to take territory in the name of something that has pretensions to being a competing government and extending its influence over all the territory the government claims. Civilians may be targeted, but usually in order to cripple the war effort's procurement of materiel, not to sap the populace's will. It's not much different from a normal war, except that everybody around it looks at the boundaries, and say that it's 'within' a state instead of 'between' two states.

It's certainly ethnic violence; there's certainly the desire on the part of Sunni Arabs (not as a group, but as a collection of groups falsely appearing to have a joint goal) to want their traditional domination over other groups. There's certainly the desire on the part of Shi'ite Arabs, mostly religious, to want to dominate the Sunni part of the country. Of course, the Kurds are the intended subjects of nearly everybody oppression, but that's a given.

Most of the violence that's not targeting insurgents/army/police, IMHO, is for one of two reasons: (1) just to kill the other side because, well, they're 'wrong' and deserve to die; or because communal and tribal notions of justice, honor and revenge require it. (2) To either clear an area that can be freed of the 'wrong' kind of person, or to cause the 'wrong kind of pepole' to simply give up and submit: in one kind of thinking, to properly submit to the divine order of things; in a second kind of thinking, to properly submit to the ideologically correct order of things, whether Ba'thist or majoritarianist. Come to think of it, that also accounts for much of the violence targeting army and police, and possibly also insurgents.

This is still run-up to a civil war. The militias are still covert, for the most part, and in some cases rather minimally organized, and it's unclear where all the fault lines actually lie in the Sunni and Shi'ite communities. It's not far from being Somalia or Afghanistan post-Soviet-pullout, and it could still get there, but there's no reason to rush. The carnage might be less in an actual civil war, but that's far from clear.

People are constantly pointing out every time the US military kills an Iraqi that tribal notions of justice require vengeance and remembering the offence; they less often point out that the view is also quite communal in nature. And many forget that the same view holds within Iraqi society, so all the 'collateral damage' that the insurgents are causing, all the dead police, students, women, kids, civilians ... all produce people more than willing to blow up, shoot, stab and behead the other side. Diyya provides a way out, as would prison time for the perps; but each side views submitting as dishonorable. There's no state.
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