Confession that formed base of Iraq war was acquired under torture: journalist

[tuvor]

LONDON (AFP) - An Al-Qaeda terror suspect captured by the United States, who gave evidence of links between Iraq and the terror network, confessed after being tortured, a journalist told the BBC.

Iban al Shakh al Libby told intelligence agents that he was close to Al-Qaeda leaders Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri and "understood an awful lot about the inner workings of Al-Qaeda," former FBI agent Jack Clonan told the broadcaster.

Libby was tortured in an Egyptian prison, according to Stephen Grey, the author of the newly-released book "Ghost Plane" who investigated the secret US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) prisons that housed terror suspects around the world.

US President George W. Bush confirmed the existence of the network of CIA holding facilities overseas during a September 6 speech defending controversial US interrogation practices.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/usbritainiraqmilitary

[NOLADEM]

1. Is there a term for something biting you in the ass before you do it?

I know it doesn't exactly apply here, but damn, that is some KA-razy karma.

[leftchick]

2. he is also insane

haven't we known this for a while now? Though repetition of the atrocities by the US is great,

[krkaufman]

21. Exactly my thoughts. This should have been brought-up during the ...

... "debate" over the "torture" bill.

The Right Wing argues that torture may be necessary to save lives, someday. Well, we now know that our use of torture has cost hundreds of lives in our detention facilities -- and hundreds of thousands of lives in Iraq, a war sold on tortured testimony.

The Right... low-probability, worst-case scenario strawman theory.

The Left... facts.

[sabra]

3. but remember Pickles said Bushco didn't mislead...

[sweetheart]

4. the purpose of torture is torture

a confession might even be extracted, but the war was predestined from the outset to
re-legitimize torture and mass murder as statecraft.

[Webster Green]

5. OK.....finally..........can we please lock these mutherfuckers up?

Please!

[DavidDvorkin]

8. Too bad that will never happen

They'll never be punished for their crimes. They'll retire wealthy and smug.

[kestrel91316]

27. Well, Bush only gets SS protection for the first 10 yrs after he

leaves office, and the Karma Fairy has all the time in the world to do her work.

Funny how he signed that law to deny CLINTON protection, and yet Clinton is loved by the people and unlikely to be harmed.............

[hedgehog]

37. Are you kidding?

After the Kennedy assasination, even Bess Truman got offered Secret Service protection. When did this one sneak past? Does it apply to Ford & Carter as well?

[kestrel91316]

39. IIRC, it's just Clinton and subsequent presidents.........

IMHO they did it for the sole purpose of exposing Clinton to the risk of assassination, knowing that he is young enough he'll be without SS for MANY years.

Could backfire. Bushie ain't so old either. He'll be without SS in his 70s.

[kestrel91316]

40. IIRC, it's just Clinton and subsequent presidents.........

IMHO they did it for the sole purpose of exposing Clinton to the risk of assassination, knowing that he is young enough he'll be without SS for MANY years.

Could backfire. Bushie ain't so old either. He'll be without SS in his 70s.

[Barrett808]

6. Torture doesn't produce intel

It’s important to note that torture isn’t useful for producing actionable intelligence; it’s useful for producing confessions, which prop up a pre-existing policy. In this case, the policy was to invade Iraq under any pretext. Torture was used to provide some of the pretext.

[krkaufman]

22. Exactly. And by that measure, torture produced the desired results.

[TexasLawyer]

26. Yes-- they got EXACTLY the

information they were looking for.

If US interrogators had wanted to know of North Korea and Hillary Clinton were in cahoots with al Qaeda, Libby would probably have confessed this too.

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

29. Thanks for that insight.

You torture to get answers you want, not to get accurate information.


That's why BushCo is so in love with it. It produces answers that aren't reality based. Torture based answers can prop up any kind of insane policy or claim, because eventually the person being tortured says what the torturer wants to hear.

BushCo - residents of the torture based community.

[dubykc]

7. Not at all surprising, but...

Bush and his PNAC cronies had their sights set on Iraq LONG before this torture could have taken place. Any information gained only added fuel to an already blazing (non-existent) WMD fire.

[Skip Intro]

9. LIARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! nt

[Amonester]

10. I just e-mailed to AI.

Help spread the (horrific) news.

Tortured humans will say anything to stop the pain.
100% of the time: What their torturers want to hear.

[Amonester]

11. What the torturers want to hear does not make what their victims

"confess" automatically true...

Plus: What their torturers do are despicable crimes against Humanity.

[mcg]

12. Bush now says the prisons have emptied

"Like hundreds of other people arrested after September 11, he's vanished into a sort of netherworld of prisons where astonishingly, President Bush now says the prisons have emptied."

Where are the prisoners???

If this is true, just how were these prisons emptied???

[jmowreader]

33. There are two possible explanations

Explanation 1: Bush had them all tortured to death
Explanation 2: They're in different prisons

They're equally plausible scenarios. So long as Republicans are in control those people will never leave US custody.

Unfortunately, at this time it may never be safe to release them, at least not without massive reparations in the form of cash, merchandise and public executions of the people responsible for this. Because I know that if I was one of these poor bastards, most of whom were NOT terrorists before Bush policed them up and started waterboarding them, the day I got out of Bush's prison I'd get me a copy of the local newspaper and start looking in the help-wanted ads under "Anti-American Terrorists."

Terror groups have HR departments, right? Well, they should.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

13. I have no problem with them torturing Libby.

[w4rma]

14. They torture people to get them to say what they want to hear.

I think that is why they are so gung-ho about torture. It allows them to get folks to say things that they don't believe. They also want to use torture as a threat against Americans, who may peacefully, and with America's best interests in mind, disagree with them.

[jwirr]

15. They really know what they are doing! First they torture someone

into saying anything just to get them to stop and then they let another guy who wanted to be the big shot in Iraq after we got rid of Saddam. Chabli or something like that. One sure thing pugs do not have a good sense of character. But then we knew that when they nominated *ss.

[originalpckelly]

16. These fuckers tortured someone and that is why we are in FUCKING IRAQ?

OMG! They started a war on lies, YOU BASTARDS!

[jmowreader]

32. No, we're in Iraq because Bush wanted to be in Iraq

Think back to 9/11. The bad guys flew an airplane into the Pentagon while Donald Rumsfeld was in there.

Rummy went over to the crash site, helped pull some people out of the area, then went back to his office and told his aides to figure out some way to tie the attacks to Saddam Hussein.

The only thing the torture-extracted statement did was made passage of the Iraq War Resolution more bipartisan. Bush was going to get his war no matter what.

[Drops_not_Dope]

17. Recently released

Council of Europe Parliamentary Assembly

http://assembly.coe.int/Main.asp?Link=/CommitteeDocs/2006/20060606_Ejdoc162006PartII-FINAL.htm

[sugapablo]

18. I don't know why I come here (to DU)..

...I just end up reading articles like this and getting very, very angry.

[whatelseisnew]

19. was this a ch4ney no-brainer decision?

[The Wizard]

20. The entire Administration

needs to be shipped off to Gitmo and stripped naked and sexually abused by other prisoners. How much would pay-per-view charge to see Cheney and Rummy sodomized by some sweaty guy praising Allah for the opportunity?
Just the thought is causing vertigo.

[civildisoBDence]

38. Good God, I'd rip my eyes out before I want to see that

but the audio would sure be easy listenin'!

Newsprism

[krkaufman]

23. Two words... IMPEACHABLE OFFENSE. n/t

Ok, four words... Impeachable Offense, mother f**ker.

[dansolo]

24. Didn't the administration blame the CIA for bad intel?

[Amonester]

28. First cherry-pick, then blame... How convenient!!

From: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=358&topic_id=701
~snip~
"The PNAC had scored a home run with the bases loaded with the 911 event: shock, horror and fear gripped the nation, the war on "terrorism" had been established in no uncertain terms, attacking Afghanistan with public approval was a foregone conclusion and the stage was set for building a public case against Saddam.

Not one to let a good attack go to waste, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld sprung into action.

* He told his aides to come up with plans for striking Iraq, even though Saddam wasn't linked to the attacks.

* PNAC-James Woolsey, former CIA director, was dispatched to London to look for and 'firm up' evidence of Iraqi involvement in the 911 attacks.

* PNAC-member and Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz was authorized to create the Office of Special Plans."

...

"The Office of Special Plans (OSP) was a secret group of analysts and policy advisors with no status in the intelligence community. Nevertheless they reported directly to the White House and National Security office with cherry-picked intelligence from questionable sources to support the case for invading Iraq. The OSP circumvented formal, well-established oversight procedures, ignored intelligence that didn't further their agenda, expanded the intelligence on weapons beyond what was justified and over-emphasized the national security risk. They became more influential than the C.I.A. or the Defense Intelligence Agency who didn't even know the ultra-secret OSP existed for at least a year."

More at: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=358&topic_id=701
~~~~~

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

30. Don't you understand? The dog ate W's homework 12,337 times.

It's never his fault.:sarcasm:

[krkaufman]

25. More than one guy. See also MoJo "Lie by Lie" timeline...

here: http://www.motherjones.com/bush_war_timeline/archives/2008/08/bush_war_timeli.html

Misinformation tortured out of al Libi was *heavily* used in selling the Iraq war.

11/11/2001 and "Early 2002" entries -- al Libi captured and tortured.

2/2002 -- DIA says al Libi likely fabricating.

3/28/2002 -- Abu Zubaydah captured in Pakistan. Called a "chief operator" within al Qaeda (though later deemed to be severely mentally ill). He's delivered to Thailand for interrogation.

4/9/2002 -- BUSH: Zubaydah it "one of the top operatives plotting and planning death and destruction on the United States." ... The CIA tortures Zubaydah until he starts talking about plots against shopping malls, banks, supermarkets, water systems, and apartment buildings. Writes reporter Ron Suskind in his book "The One Percent Doctrine,""the United States would torture a mentally disturbed man and then leap, screaming, at every word he uttered."

... and much more.

Impeachable offenses.

[gratuitous]

31. Hey now, nobody could have predicted this

I mean, come on, how could we know that this guy would tell a lie just to get the torture to stop? Really, what are the odds of that happening, and what difference would it possibly make to the roll-out of the new product line (Iraq invasion! Now with Shock and Awe!) in September 2002?

[Disturbed]

34. The President of the USA violates the US Constitution and

proclaims to the World: "We don't torture."

The people that are paying attention knew that this was another lie and now that lie has been confirmed.

The Dems may not want to Impeach this Pres. and VP yet it may reach a point where it is unavoidable.

[nealmhughes]

35. Evidently they found a "terrorist mark" on him and he was also seen with

a black cat prior to his 'detainment session.'

You know the Terrorist Fynder Generall knows how to make one talk...

[thingfisher]

36. You know

maybe after the election frenzy is over, the Democrats could actually get together and seriously IMPEACH this little prick and his toadies and then figure out the best way to try and convict them of the crimes they have committed. Do ya think?

[IWantAChange]

41. An invasion based on information obtained through torture......

Cheney, Rumsfeld and the stooge Dubyha should be really proud that they were able to pull that one over on the 'dolt' American public. Oh wait, we now know all the lies and 'manufactured' facts that have cost us 20,000 dead and wounded and $500 billion or so - ya' think the three stooges might be thinking that things might not work out for them too well if there's a change in the political balance of power??????

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[IWantAChange]

42. An invasion based on information obtained through torture......

Cheney, Rumsfeld and the stooge Dubyha should be really proud that they were able to pull that one over on the 'dolt' American public. Oh wait, we now know all the lies and 'manufactured' facts that have cost us 20,000 dead and wounded and $500 billion or so - ya' think the three stooges might be thinking that things might not work out for them too well if there's a change in the political balance of power??????


:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[MisterP]

43. how...Imperial Japan

Kodoha! wheeeeee!!!

[madokie]

44. what more proof need there be that torture is useless for verifiable info.

[davekriss]

45. Ticking time bomb scenario writ large

Intelligent people in civilized nations understand that torture, besides being abominably immoral, is a very poor means to surface actionable intelligence. There's the old ticking time bomb scenario, long refuted. If we suspected a ticking time bomb was about to go off, would it be right to torture a highly probable suspect into confessing the location of the bomb, thereby allowing the forces of good to save many through application of evil means.

Well, I'll ignore the ethical argument, let's just stay utilitarian: The tortured will say whatever they think their torturer wants to hear, anything, to get the torture to stop. One more time Libby -- Butch, turn up the voltage -- is Saddam Hussein planning to give WMD to Al Qaeda -- ahhhhwwwwwrrrgggghhh yyyyeeeesssss! OK, Butch, we've got it; call Bush and tell him to start dropping the bombs!

But this all presupposes that the Bush Regime responded, in error, to what they perceived to be genuine imminent threat. My friends, we know that WMD were simply the line they all agreed to use to manufacture consent for war. Threat had nothing to do with it. Acquiring Production Sharing Agreements that will funnel upwards of $200 billion of Iraqi oil value per year into the coffers of Big Oil Companies is why our soldiers die; concerns about the stability of the House of Saud (in 2002) and the need to establish alternate military garrisions from which to project imperial control in the region had more to do with it; the need to distract and rally the American voting public to allow the midterm theft in 2002 was a driver -- but WMD, which we knew were not present, and imminent threat, which we knew did not exist, had nothing to do with why Bush committed the crime of Shock and Awe. So why torture Libby?

It's long established that states torture, not to surface information, but to breakdown the will and identity of the person being tortured, and by the sheer terror of what is done to the tortured, the will of the population out of which the tortured is pulled. Torture is terror, an armanent amongst arms used by states against uncooperative populations. Guantanamo stands as symbol to would-be terrorists (whether originating in Afganistan, Iraq, or now even in the United States), and that's why it has not been closed.