West is turning on Islam, scholar warns

[T_i_B]

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article1932752.ece

A leading Muslim scholar has said the debate on women wearing veils highlights a growing "global polarisation" between the West and the Islamic world.

Tariq Ramadan, a visiting professor at Oxford University told an interfaith conference in London yesterday that the debate sparked by Jack Straw, who said the veil hampered integration, was part of a global phenomenon in which a "them versus us" attitude was being fostered between Muslims and non-Muslims.

"The atmosphere has deteriorated in the last year or so," Professor Ramadan said. "It's not only a British reality, but European and American.

"To nurture this polarisation is the easiest way for politicians when we don't have social policy. The most dangerous thing is the normalisation of this discourse."

[PATRICK]

1. Right on schedule

The leaders who plunged the Balkans so easily into war are merely the exemplars of typical tactics by disreputable "leaders" world wide who can so easily lead the media and public by the nose on idiotic symbolic bridges toward polarization. If Muslims had not the key resources of declining oil there would be NO problem at all except for areas where large immigration problems threatened local job markets.

The convenient extremists among the Islamic RW movements also would be greatly reduced were this not really a battle for the oil market. The global media are also to blame for being willing or uncritical dupes for this polarization and so easily distracted from the guys pushing all the convenient buttons. Normal people everywhere will scarcely believe how we came to be at each others throats before the entire globe is swept up into this madness. We NEED to repress and replace vile leadership everywhere there is a so-called democracy as a first step and strengthen actual democracy in the process.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PATRICK]

3. "They" ?

When I said balkanization this is exactly what I meant, not the temper or the justification of any side or culture or any grouping. It took a long time of violence and feuding and abuses on various "sides" to get to this point of righteous indignation as the spark for a meltdown of global civilization and it is as stupid and shameful as any easy throwing together of entire groups of normal people into war and chaos. So who IS the biggest sucker on the block that can be made to throw the first bunch or tease the hothead? It becomes irrelevant when all the fools are brawling.

They can say whatever they want of crusaders in my book, BTW, however one may want to throw in the depradations of Muslim invaders themselves. When we HAVE a civilization somewhere really worth bragging about it will not go about indignantly picking fights with ancient Sneetch(ref. Dr. Seuss) grudge matches for the benefit of the few manipulators. Hitler cmight be laughing from the grave since what he did with Arabs and Jews, and what oil imperialist Western powers did with both, have largely reset this "modern" stage upon which cartoonist clowns stumble in on cue for something besides comic relief. The roots of this is based not only on the ancient manipulators and warmakers of old but upon the current ones today. THESE are the immediate targets of the wise for criticism, not Everyfool and the forced interplay of escalating hate.

[xchrom]

4. name another religion where right after 9-11 a famous minister

blames the attack on gay folk, lesbians and feminists and it makes headlines?

[seriousstan]

6. So 3000 people die and a religious leader says something ignorant

and everyone shakes their head in disbelief or someone draws a cartoon and people riot, embassies are burnt and bombing planned.

I see the equivalence there...............NOT.

[ck4829]

8. Scapegoating is something that should never be taken lightly

It is one of the first steps toward genocide.

[barb162]

19. I wish you were around when the catholic bashers show up!

[ck4829]

24. I have found myself defending Catholics on DU before

Even though I am not one, I agree with them on many religious principles, and used to be one as well.

[xchrom]

10. can you say...

timothy mcveigh?

[barb162]

18. No, because that wasn't about religion as I recall

And a one trick pony is not the same thing as organized terror groups

[xchrom]

25. the terrorists are very much like t. mcveigh.

the cells are both proliferated on teh one hand and unable to be truly cohesive on the other.

this makes them even more chaotic than say under the more or less direct control of osama or any of his lieutenants.


t. mcveigh makes his signature bombing in large part because of the governments response to waco -- which was a compound of religious extremists.

the description of america is rather profoundly christian -- with the percent reaching close to 80 -- for many in the middle east it's difficult{and i think correctly} to seperate our christianity from the assault and murderous mayhem on iraq.

you can pretend all you want that some how islam -- or muslims have more violent tendencies wrapped in their religion -- but christians terrorized african americans in this country for a very, very long time.
add first nation people to the mix -- the attempt to institutionalize bigotry against gay folk -- and you are describing what is a pretty violent people.

[KamaAina]

28. Fair enough. What about Eric Rudolph?

It was all about religion with him. Hardly a "one-trick pony", either; his "credits" include abortion clinics, a gay bar, and the Atlanta Olympics. Hey! He hit the trifecta! :sarcasm:

[Jamastiene]

27. Eric Rudolph comes to mind as well. n/t

[CJCRANE]

12. So

3000 people die, caused by a group of operatives from Saudi Arabia, whose financiers have links to the Bush administration.

Bushco take out their revenge on a country that had nothing to do the 9/11, killing 30,000 civilians in "shock and awe" and killing and torturing 1000's of others ince then.

That's what makes me shake my head. I disagree strongly with hotheaded muslim fundamentalists but they are by no means the greatest threat the world faces.

[closeupready]

15. Oh, I know.

While I don't enjoy watching the spread of nukes, I do have a dark laugh when I read people characterizing countries like either Pakistan or North Korea as "the most dangerous country in the world". Because if you were an Iraqi, I imagine your opinion about the matter would differ greatly. I'd bet that people in places like Iran and Venezuela (or whatever today's Axis of Evil is) watch current events fearfully. Wouldn't you?

[Kagemusha]

7. ...Christianity?

Pat Robertson anyone?

[xchrom]

9. jerry falwell in that case --

but not a hairsbreadth of difference.

[Bill McBlueState]

11. I'm not sure what this has to do with anything

Whether Christianity is a threat to peace doesn't have anything to do with whether Islam is a threat to peace. Maybe both religions are dangerous.

[xchrom]

13. anything can be dangerous when

peopled with lunatics.

christianity has sprouted Warrior Jesus -- and it is most certainly dangerous -- just as extremists in islam.

HOWEVER we must also keep in mind that most adherents to either faith are peace loving moderate, modern folk.

[Igel]

16. About the same was said after Katrina.

By a few Xian loonies.

And by a few Muslim loonies.

Personally, when it comes to speaking loon, I've observed both sides doing it--more than just those sides, to be honest, but I'll restrict the topic for brevity's sake. It's just harder to find the Muslim side speaking loon, since they do it in Arabic (or some other "Muslim" or "Islamic" language, to use the expression some truly stupid Western academicians have settled on), and the Western media seems to dislike reporting the "Other" engaging in their loonish speech. But absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, to use a phrase popularized in the last few years (but hardly originated by the * administration folk).

[izzie]

5. Well I would say he is right. Does any one recall Japan and WW2

The word comes out to hate the people you are fighting and you will do it better if one can make them less like you. Our history of wars has always done this. And it carries down to son from father. I have ran into Irish that hated me because I had an English name and My family have been in this country since the Mayflower. They wanted to fight Black and Tan war with me as I was not the right race or went to the real church and that is in my life time. Make them less human is an old thing. The vail will come off when they see it means not getting ahead. Or they will end up in their own society out of the main stream. It seems to always work like this. Just as I am sure the Irish I knew learned to shut up and not fight old wars in New England in the 1950's so they could get ahead.

[w4rma]

14. Islam can do just fine *without* the sexist burqas.

Just like Christianity has done just fine without the racist white hoods and sexist witch trials.

[JerseygirlCT]

36. That's true, but I think we always need to be careful

not to brand the entire religion because of extremist practitioners. Encouraging the us vs. them mindset does nothing to help bridge those gaps, and only plays into the neocon's agenda.

All of Islam is not about veiled women, sexist men, and fundamentalist, west-hating theology. Just like in the US, where often the big, loud and ugly fundamentalist Christians get all the attention, the decent, tolerant, peace-loving Muslims are often overlooked.

That would be a mistake, I think.

[Igel]

17. Them versus us has indeed been foisted upon us.

Tariq's grandfather started the modern variety of "us versus them" foisting with al-Ikhwan and its various offshoots, Sa'udi Arabia's continued the foisting, and the foisting became much more intense with Khomenei "Abu Kalb".

The Muhajiroun and Hezb al-Tahrir has promoted foisting, and took it to new levels in Europe and Britain.

Baathism foisted for years, but it's fallen flat as Islamism--the most rapidly growing political movements in many Arab countries--has usurped and surpassed it.

"Them versus us." Really.

[barb162]

20. I don't think anything is being "fostered"

"...them versus us" attitude was being fostered between Muslims and non-Muslims."

I think it's probably a natural reaction on the part of many Westerners watching people riot over cartoons, comments by the Pope, etc. Jack Straw isn't the problem; the people rioting in the streets are the problem. Every time I don't like something mentioned about my religion, I riot? If you don't like something a newspaper publishes, don't buy the paper or write a letter to the editor

[closeupready]

21. Do you get thrown in jail by expressing your opinions

or sending letters to the editor?

[barb162]

22. No, but I would if I started burning people's cars and embassies

Exressing an opinion and freedom of the speech and press are important. There's no need for rioting in the streets

[closeupready]

23. Do people in Pakistan, Egypt or S.A. have those freedoms?

If not, no offense, but I think your views have little to no foundation in reality or how the world really works.

I agree that rioters should be punished, but there is that which is known as cause, and there is that which is known as effect.

[barb162]

30. "Do people in Pakistan, Egypt or S.A. have those freedoms?"

Not that I know about. But certainly in this country we have freedoms, but not the freedom to go around rioting whenever the hell we feel like it. Disturbing the peace and all.

[closeupready]

38. Please do not jump on the Islamophobic bandwagon.

eom

[ButterflyBlood]

34. They don't have freedom of speech in most cases, but they do in this case

You certainly can peacefully protest those things in those countries without being arrested. You WOULD be arrested for publicly making comments like the Pope did (even as insanely out of context as they were taking) or publishing drawings of Mohammed like those that were.

That sort of stuff makes me want to do something completely out there, like produce a gay porno film about Mohammed. Get the message across to QUIT BEING SO DAMN UPTIGHT.

[enigma000]

37. I'd love to see the response

But first, do a gay promo with Jesus as the star. Then do a sequel with Mohammed. I'd love to see the response.

Very Important: do the films in THAT order.

[closeupready]

39. Exactly.

(it would be like a game of how-low-can-you-go)

[Jamastiene]

26. I see it this way.

If a woman chooses to wear the veil of her own accord, fine. I might not ever choose that myself, but it's her right to choose. It irks the hell out of me but she should have the choice. She shouldn't be forced by law. I do disagree with laws forbidding women the same rights as men. And I certainly don't want a theocracy, no matter what religion it is.

[Temporary1]

29. We have to be careful to not let this turn into outright racism and cultural war

We can't let there be a repeat of past horrors of racism in america or an extension of the current ones.

Muslims with special ID cards -- how long until that?

[NuttyFluffers]

31. right on schedule. and the fashion police argument was the Trojan horse

funny that...

"one of these things is not like the other. one of these things is not the same. which of these things is not like the other? ... aww shit, string 'em up!"

people are really far too easy to manipulate. if i was truly evil i'd find this almost entertaining child's play. oh well, let's see how well the FUD shall do on DU from here on out after this.

[onager]

32. Egypt has an internal fight going on over the full veil

As of this week, I've been working in Egypt for a year. I previously worked/lived in Saudi Arabia for a little over 2 years. I am an American. I am also an atheist, so I don't have a god in this fight. I just like to mention that up front.

Anyway, about the same time as the fuss over fully veiled women in Britain, a similar fuss kicked up here in Egypt. The (Egyptian) provost of Helwan University banned women students from wearing the full face veil.

He had two serious concerns:

1. That terrorists will use the full face covering as disguises. Before you laugh at that, consider that in January 2005, two fully-veiled--and heavily armed--women shot up a tourist bus in downtown Cairo. To learn exactly how it's done, you can watch The Battle Of Algiers. Probably the only "training film" to be simultaneously used by the Pentagon and international terrorists.

2. The provost is also worried about disguised males sneaking into the women's dorms. He publicly said he was afraid of being killed by outraged parents. That's not an idle fear in a country where grudges still tend to be settled by the vendetta. In the papers here, you read about "vendetta killings" almost every day.

The classic "honor killing" is still popular, but since those only kill women, nobody pays much attention to them. :sarcasm:

Even I've been warned about that, humorously--I think. My commute to work takes me thru a bunch of little farm villages in the Nile Delta. I've stopped in some of those villages, and taken photos of the kids and stuff, then handed out prints. My Egyptian co-workers joke that I could probably run for mayor and win.

Anyhow, every day I see a woman and her daughter I call the "Falafel Ladies," obviously because they sell falafel. Every morning I wave to them as we drive thru, and they smile and wave back. One day after the Waving Ritual, a couple of the Egyptians in the van were laughing and talking in Arabic. One of them translated: "We were just saying that woman probably has a jealous husband who is going to castrate you someday." Boy, I sure got a good laugh out of that one...

FYI in Egypt, the full religious get-up covering the hands and everything but the eyes is called the niqab. The head scarf here is called the hijab. In Saudi Arabia, the full covering is the abaya.

[shadowknows69]

33. Just for the record

I have not nor have I ever had anything against Islam any more than I have a distaste for any organized religion that can move people to extreme actions. Sadly my countries leaders are making me a bigot and a hater by association.

[reprobate]

35. The thing about the veil to westerners that muslims must see,

is that to Muslims is stands for tradition. To westerners it stands for secrecy. It becomes a mask. You hide behind a mask and it becomes something to fear.

As an atheist, I don't take sides in this Islam v. Christian war. I think they're all crazy.

But Muslims must start to realize that some of their traditions are looked at with horror in the west, and they must start to change these traditions is they are to integrate with the rest of the world. For instance, the Koran gives equal treatment and rights to men and women. The tradition of the veil goes back far before the Koran and the Bible to the time of desert nomads. It was more in the tradition of "If you can't see my possession, you won't covet my possession." That's simply not an attitude that fits into a modern society, one in which nobody is any body's possession.

So once more, as with most anything in which religion is involved, we see neolithic ideas fucking up our post-modern world.

[Malikshah]

40. As a scholar of the region...here's my response

http://www.angelfire.com/film/tsss/ss/duh.WAV