Ortega: No to missile destruction

[arcos]

Ortega: No to missile destruction

The Nicaraguan president has said that his country should keep its arsenal of more than 1,000 Cold War-era anti-aircraft missiles, which Washington has repeatedly said it wants destroyed.

<snip>

Ortega however told parliament that the proposal was unacceptable at at time when neighbouring Honduras was adding to its fleet of military aircraft.

"Even if they aren't upgrading it, the fact that Honduras has an air force, and El Salvador too, and we do not - that explains why Nicaragua has the missiles," Ortega told parliament.

<snip>

"If on the one hand they are going to renovate the Honduran air force, an air force of war, a military air force, and on the other hand they are going to ask us to destroy the rockets, it would be absurd, inconceivable."

Honduras, which has the biggest air force in Central America, said last week the United States had offered it around 10 small reconnaissance aircraft.

<snip>

http://mwcnews.net/content/view/12277&Itemid=1

This is shameful on all sides, especially the United States. The United States shouldn't be selling arms to Latin America, and it is shameful that Bill Clinton ended the ban on this. It is also shameful of Honduras, El Salvador and Nicaragua that are still willing to go to war with their neighbors.

[John Q. Citizen]

1. Except a nation can't go to war with anti-aircraft missles. Those are defensive

weapons, not offensive weapons.

If Honduras and El Salvador dismantled their offensive capabilities, then I could see the argument for Nicaragua to dismantle their defensive capabilities.

[arcos]

3. Because Honduras and El Salvador are planning huge invasions of Nicaragua...

Right? :sarcasm:

Costa Rica and Panamá have no armies, no anti-aircraft missiles, no tanks and no war planes. Nicaragua doesn't have a use for all of this either.

[daleo]

5. Panama was invaded by the USA (Bush sr, 1989)

Not that a few cold war air defense missiles would have helped, but there is plenty of evidence of the need for self-defense.

[arcos]

6. Yes, and they were wrong to do it...

Even though Noriega is an asshole. However, political conditions right now are totally different and I really doubt the US would dare to invade any Latin American country. As you admit, cold war defense missiles would hardly help in anything and if there was a global uproar because of the invasion of Iraq, you can imagine what would happen if the US did the same to any Latin American country.

[daleo]

7. Conditions can change quickly

I don't think any country should be criticized for having a reasonable amount of arms, especially those that are purely defensive in nature (like air defense systems). Who knows, with a properly operating air defense the 911 attacks might have even been thwarted.

[arcos]

9. In Latin America, I'd say they are totally useless...

And in fact only cause a waste of government money that would be better spent in education and health care.

[John Q. Citizen]

12. How can you be so sure? Don't people in Latin America behave like people around the

world? Or are they different for some reason?

Look, I'm not arguing for an arms race or for increased militarization. I'm only saying that Nicaragua already has a defensive capability. I think that they don't dismantle a defensive capability isn't the end of the world. The US ordering Nicaragua to get rid of their defensive anti-aircraft missles is hypocritical.

[arcos]

15. It is totally hypocritical...

It is not the end of the world either. It is shameful though, because of the dark history that militaries have in Latin America.

Yes, we in Latin America are different because traditionally armies have been used to justify human rights violations within the country and have been used as "wag the dog" for unpopular Presidents.

Nicaragua not destroying this is not increased militarization, but it doesn't decrease it either, and I think that's part of the problem.

[manic expression]

22. You mean

the dark history that WE have in Latin America.

[arcos]

24. Well, I'm not American...

So I am not included in that WE, but yes, the US has a very dark history in Latin America. But the US is not the only guilty party, traditional politicians in Latin America, in all parts of the political spectrum (although it is only fair to say that right wingers have much worse record), have a very dark history too, all by themselves.

[1932]

14. Air defenses are crucial in latin america. Remember Allende.

And in The Revolution Will Not Be Televised, it was a threat of an aerial bombing of Millaflores that convinced Chavez to leave the building (he didn't want his entire government murdered).

[arcos]

17. Do you really think cold war era air defenses....

would have stopped the coup against Chávez?

[1932]

28. You can't stop EVERY way of preventing a coup. But you're stupid

if you don't try to stop some of them...and especially the obvious ones.

[ProudDad]

20. Let's see

You're talking about the same wing-nuts who invaded Iraq, backed the coup against Chavez and want to attack Iran???

Right, they wouldn't attack any Central or South American country... :sarcasm:

[arcos]

25. No, I don't think they would dare to do it... nt

[John Q. Citizen]

8. A rose by any other name....

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/factbook/pm/milita.html (see the note at the bottom)
http://www.ciponline.org/facts/iaafapn.htm

Military expenditures -Panama dollar figure: $145 million (2003
Area: total: 78,200 sq km
water: 2,210 sq km
land: 75,990 sq km


Military expenditures -Nicaragua dollar figure: $30.8 million (2003)
Area: total: 129,494 sq km
water: 9,240 sq km
land: 120,254 sq km


Military expenditures-Honduras - dollar figure: $99.8 million (2003
Area: total: 112,090 sq km
land: 111,890 sq km
water: 200 sq km

Military expenditures - El Salvador- dollar figure: $157 million (2003
Area: total: 21,040 sq km
water: 320 sq km
land: 20,720 sq km

Military expenditures -Costa Rica- dollar figure: $64 million (2003)
total: 51,100 sq km
water: 440 sq km
note: includes Isla del Coco
land: 50,660 sq km

Heck wasn't it Honduras and El Salvador that went to war over tensions sparked by a soccer match? I don't blame Nicaragua for keeping their anti-aircraft missles. They spend less on the military than any of the four nations. I wish we had their military budget. We go through that in a half hour I bet.

[arcos]

10. I would like to see the source of those numbers...

Exactly what do they consider "military spending", because Costa Rica has no standing army, no air force, navy, anti-aircraft missiles, tanks, etc.

[John Q. Citizen]

11. The CIA Fact Book online was the source. I understand that Costa Rica

has no standing army, but they do have a national security force. Kind of like a national police. they have some military equipment.

This is also what Panama now has.

They aren't organized like a military. Yet, I'm sure, that in the case of an external aggression they would be called upon to act as a defense force.

[arcos]

16. It is a national police force...

But there's hardly a lot of military equipment. They do have some, but it is not much, and I really doubt $60 million were spent on it in 2004.

Plus, the CIA's Factbook record is not perfect... for example it claims that Costa Rica's GDP per capita is $12,000, when in reality it is hardly $7,000.

Again, I would really like to know where did the CIA came up with the military spending figures, what are they considering military spending, etc.

[roody]

4. And the USA.

[Vidar]

2. With all the shit the US has pulled in his country, Ortega is wise to keep

all defensive weapons.

[BushOut06]

13. Why is the US telling them to scrap their defensive weapons?

Are they making as much of a fuss over neighboring countries' offensive weapons? Could it be that if a country is friendly to the US, then it's okay - but if that country becomes "leftist" - then suddenly Washington is alarmed?

Considering the fact that the US has invaded a few countries over the past few decades (Grenada, Panama), has military operations in others (Colombia), and has tried to overthrow the governments in others (Cuba, Haiti, Venezuela) - why shouldn't Nicaragua be concerned?

[Judi Lynn]

18. How many DU'ers recall that Bush's Defense Department got to Bolivia's military

before Evo Morales could be sworn in, and refuse their sneaky removal of Bolivia's own missiles? Here's a report some of us discussed in 2006:

The Miami Herald
Jan. 19, 2006
Probe of destroyed missiles vowed

President-elect Evo Morales vowed to open a probe into the destruction of 28 of Bolivia's missiles by the United States and Bolivian Army officials.

BY CARLOS VALDES
Associated Press

LA PAZ, Bolivia - President-elect Evo Morales vowed on Wednesday to launch a thorough investigation into allegations that top military officials worked in tandem with the United States to destroy 28 Chinese shoulder-launched missiles owned by the Bolivian Army.

The decision to send the missiles to the United States for destruction last year prompted caretaker President Eduardo Rodríguez to fire Army chief Gen. Marcelo Antezana on Tuesday, and led to the resignation of Defense Minister Gonzalo Méndez.

It also came at a sensitive time for the United States, which is trying to improve strained relations with the leftist Morales, an open critic of American policies.

Morales said the investigation would be ''profound'' and that any evidence of wrongdoing would be met with ``drastic punishment.''

A State Department spokesman has said Bolivia requested U.S. help in removing the deteriorating Chinese-made surface-to-air missiles.

Antezana appeared on Bolivian television, saying Rodríguez made a ''bad interpretation'' of his role in the October destruction of the missiles, which led to accusations of treason by Morales, who was then campaigning for the presidency.

At the time, Morales revealed the destruction of the weapons and said the move left Bolivia with virtually no air defenses.
(snip/...)

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/bolivia/missiles.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You may recall as the Bolivian Presidential election approached, threats from the _Bush administration started coming fast and furiously, and sleazily. Here's some ominous saber rattling from 2005:

US Interests and Bolivian Elections: Demonizing Morales, Jeopardizing Stability
Written by Kathryn Ledebur and Gretchen Gordon
Tuesday, 22 November 2005

In June 2005, two weeks of massive street protests and widespread blockades in Bolivia culminated in the resignation of President Carlos Mesa and a subsequent power vacuum in the country. U.S. officials suggested that Bolivian coca leader and Movement Toward Socialism (MAS) party head, Evo Morales, manipulated popular protests within the country. Washington has also asserted that the governments of Cuba and Venezuela provoked and funded the social unrest.
Accusations put forth by Bush administration officials represent both a misreading of the complex Bolivian political crisis and the latest incarnation of an unsuccessful long-term strategy to prevent a Morales presidency, which U.S. officials claim would be a destabilizing force in the region. As public statements once again failed to impede popular support for Morales, the U.S. has likely resorted to behind the scenes attempts to affect Bolivian politics, or to influence the viability of a Morales presidency if elected. In the context of a potentially volatile political climate, U.S. attempts to thwart a Morales presidency threaten to produce exactly the prolonged political instability they purportedly are seeking to avoid.

The US War of Words Falls Flat

Morales, an indigenous representative in the Bolivian congress, has long been vocal about his distaste for U.S. intervention in Bolivian affairs, be it through the U.S. War on Drugs or the dictates of international financial institutions such as the World Bank and International Monetary Fund. U.S. officials, in turn, have repeatedly tried to publicly discredit Morales as a drug trafficker and radical element. In the 2002 elections, U.S. Ambassador Manuel Rocha went so far as to warn Bolivians not to vote for Morales, "…if you elect those who want Bolivia to become a major cocaine exporter again, this will endanger the future of U.S. assistance to Bolivia". The move backfired, and increased support for Morales, who came in a close second.

After President Mesa’s resignation in June and with early elections scheduled for December 2005, top U.S. officials attempted to explain the crisis in Bolivia by accusing Fidel Castro in Cuba and Hugo Chavez of Venezuela -- who officials claim are trying to install allied "popular Marxist-socialist" governments in the region (Los Tiempos 7/28/05) -- of providing funding and instructions to MAS and Morales. In August, U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told reporters that, "There is certainly evidence both Cuba and Venezuela have been involved in the situation in Bolivia in unhelpful ways" (AP 8/17/05). When pressed, Rumsfeld refused to be more specific in his claim. One of Rumsfeld’s deputies, however, stated that Bolivian elements, including Morales, have received organizational support from Cuba and financial resources from Venezuela (AP 8/17/05). The grouping of Bolivia with Venezuela and Cuba, two countries which Bush’s top Latin America aide has popularly characterized as a Latin American "Axis of Evil" (National Review 3/28/05), could be used to justify increased involvement in Bolivian internal affairs.
(snip/...)

http://upsidedownworld.org/main/content/view/118/1/

[HuffleClaw]

19. WHY should any nation listen to what bush wants?

what a joke.

[arcos]

26. Regardless of what Bush wants, what is better for Latin America?

To have to spend money keeping old weapons in shape, or even worse buy new weapons, or spend that money in welfare, education, and healthcare for its population?

This is not about what Bush wants, this is what is better for Latin Americans.

[roamer65]

21. Hopefully Chavez helps Ortega get new Russian MIG's.

Nicaragua needs to defend itself against US imperialism, just like it had to in the 1980's.

[arcos]

27. Right, Nicaragua should get deeper into debt to buy new weapons...

That's exactly what Nicaraguans want, they don't want food or education or healthcare, they want new MIG's! :sarcasm:

[Judi Lynn]

23. From Latin America with love: Thank you, America, for ignoring us!

From Latin America with love: Thank you, America, for ignoring us!

By Ben Tanosborn

Al-Jazeerah, February 5, 2007

Thomas Gray’s maxim stating that “ignorance is bliss” has been both, widely accepted and widely refuted. Proponents and opponents to what that gentleman said, or meant to say, back in 1742 seem to gather with equally opposing strength as centuries pass. Of late, however, the people of Latin America may have given us a replacement to that axiom, coining with their actions a true gem: “Bliss is being ignored – by the US!”

And you know what? They may have come up with an irrefutable truism when we try to make sense of what they mean by that. However, what they are saying south of the border and what we get from America’s corporate press confound us as if originating in Babel. Commentary by so-called experts on Latin America, usually from think-tanks of convenience – those from where most propaganda germinates which serves the needs of both the White House and the State Department – seem to always give us a minority or dissenting view… something which would be acceptable were it not presented as the majority or prevailing view. And that’s basically what we get, minority-imposed views.
(snip)

What the governments of Ortega (Nicaragua), Chavez (Venezuela), Correa (Ecuador), Morales (Bolivia), Lula (Brazil) – or the more acceptable, to the US government, political evolutions in Chile and Argentina – give us as a bottom line a decade or two from today, assuming the US does not intervene, will determine success or failure and not any ill-founded demagoguery pitting socialism against capitalism. Capitalism, defined as properly regulated free-enterprise, should be able to co-exist and thrive under almost any form of socialism. Only predatory capitalism will shrivel and die a natural death.
(snip)

One thing we feel safe to bet on: results, no matter how dismal, cannot possibly be as bad as those obtained in the past under predatory capitalism, even if blasphemously camouflaged as free-enterprise; not for 70 percent of the people in the region, perhaps a much higher figure in some nations with larger indigenous population. The people are simply fed up, and have been saying so where it counts: at the ballot box. They are shouting to the four winds: enough!
(snip)

Enough! No more PR safety-valves for global exploitation by predatory capitalists and their supporting governments. Doesn’t it make sense that Latin Americans are ecstatic as America, under Bush, pays full attention to the mess it has created in the Middle East ignoring its Latin protégé? Can we, at least this once, let people in other parts of the world determine what’s good for them… instead of homicidally intruding in their affairs?
(snip/...)

~~~~ link ~~~~

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

29. The missiles were there for more than a decade, and just when a leftie gets elected...

...THEN they must be destroyed.

The chutzpah.