U.S. Probing Copter Crash Report in Iraq (another copter :cry:

[wakeme2008]

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Iraq-Helicopter.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

February 7, 2007
U.S. Probing Copter Crash Report in Iraq
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Filed at 4:18 a.m. ET

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) -- The U.S. military said it was investigating reports that an aircraft went down in Iraq.

Witnesses said a helicopter had gone down in a field in the Sheik Amir area northwest of Baghdad, sending smoke rising from the scene.

''We are looking into initial reports of a possible aircraft down,'' U.S. military spokeswoman Lt. Col. Josslyn Aberle said.

..not much more at link..

[saigon68]

1. More useless deaths

For the Chimp's Neocon corporate buddies

[wakeme2008]

2. Problem with copters in Iraq is it US military or Blackwater

:grr:

:hi: saigon68

[kingoth]

54. again.... What????????

I was unawares that Blackwater was involved in nam' pray tell where you get your mis-information from ?????!!!!!!

[Mortos]

16. The CH-46

Large Chopper used to move material or troops (up to 30 including crew).

Info here:

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/ch-46.htm


The H-46 “Sea Knight” helicopter is one of the largest helicopters in the US Navy inventory. The “Sea Knight” is a twin-turbine powered, dual-piloted, tandem rotor helicopter designed by the Boeing Company Vertol Division. The aircraft is 16 feet 8 inches tall. There are six rotor blades on the aircraft, each measuring 25 feet 6 inches. With blades spread, the aircraft is 84 feet 4 inches long. The average weight of the H-46 is 18,000 pounds, with a maximum lift capability of 6,000 pounds. It can carry 25 combat-loaded troops, or can be outfitted to carry medical evacuation litters in case of disaster. It has the fuel endurance to stay airborne for approximately two hours, or up to three hours with an extra internal tank.

A better info link:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/ch-46.htm

[stanwyck]

55. Thanks, Mortos. I know this is what my

son, a Marine (now on his third tour), is transported on but I hadn't actually seen a close-up of one. My husband knew the minute he heard CH-46 that Marines were on board. There are some very sad families right now.

[truth2power]

29. Saigon, maybe you would know about this...

I just quickly skimmed thru this thread. Maybe it's discussed further down, but do you think the increase in these reports could be partly due to the fact that our equipment is wearing out due to the effect of the sand etc.? Seems I read something about this.

This is not to dispute that they're being shot down in some cases. You know, since we're escalating our war, it's only logical that the resistance would be escalating theirs. I don't know why that's so hard for people to understand.


edit> to add: OUT. NOW. The "things will get chaotic if we leave" argument is laughable.

[happyslug]

40. From what I have read about the area, the real sand storms start in April or May

And lasts through the fall, thus while sand MAY be the cause, the question is why NOW not last Summer?

My guess as to the shoot downs is that someone probably figured out to put anti-aircraft missiles about 1/4 to 1/2 mile in all directions from any fight, thus someone has a target no matter from what direction the US comes in from (or the insurgents received a shipment of such missiles and launchers so such a tactic could be emplace).

Before the start of this war in Iraq US Doctrine was for US Helicopters Pilots to approach a target low and fast. This doctrine was to minimize the time heat seeking missiles would have time to lock on a helicopter. During the initial operations of the Iraqi War 0this tactic was found to be a failure against Troops prepared for such low and fast operations. Such troops would open fire with AK-47s, RPG, General Purpose Machine guns (and anything else they had) and knocked down the Helicopters as they flew over (There was even a case where Saddam thank a man over 60 who was alleged to have shot down an Apache Helicopter with his Bolt Action Mauser Rifle, some question the truth of that incident but that what was reported, and you had a huge number of helicopters lost during that two week campaign before tactics were changed to reflect the full affect of Ground Fire). Thus the effect of Ground fire killed the low and fast tactics but this forced the Pilots to fly higher to avoid ground fire.

Anyway, the problem for the helicopters was HOW to provide support given that the fast and low tactic was found to be unworkable. The answer was a return to Vietnam era tactic of flying higher than 600 feet when flying into a combat area (And to fly over 2000 feet when not on the final approach to such combat area). This higher attitude was to avoid ground fire. The problem with flying higher is that it gives more time for heat Seeking missiles to lock on the the helicopters.

Thus the Pilots have a dilemma, come in low (100-600 feet) and come under mass ground fire, or fly in higher, but that gives the Heat Seeking missiles time to lock on. What a choice with everyone in the country having at least an AK.

[saigon68]

42. They are flying more too to avoid road travel

The roads are really dangerous now and the Major Honchos are starting to get sick of the IED casualties as the Iraqi Resistance is just making "BIGGER" IEDs, that really kick ass. And ramping up the numbers and sophistication of their road mining efforts.

There are shots on the web showing armored Humvees reduced to popcorn and bottle cap sized pieces (Boom).

Can't post them here because I have been warned not to show graphic stuff.

[truth2power]

45. I heard something on the radio today..

Someone saying the equipment is pretty old.

About the roads being dangerous...there was some Bushco droid today, maybe on the News Hour, saying that Iraq was "the most dangerous place in the whole world today." WTF? I wonder if these people really think about what they're saying. The Administration line has been that things are getting BETTER in Iraq. Can't have it both ways. Tomorrow I look for Crashcart to come out and say they're in their last throes, again.

I think my head's gonna explode.

[saigon68]

52. Yes the NeoCon creeps want it both ways

Good thing the SHEEP are so stoopid

[kingoth]

56. I agree with that

Sand and wear and tear-over use.

[kingoth]

53. what ????

Useless deaths are caused by drunk drivers and abortion not aircraft wrecks.

[Lasher]

3. They're using shoulder fired surface to air missiles

Several downed aircraft all of a sudden probably means they shooting at us with the SAM-7s that Iran gave them, which is the Russian equivalent of the Stinger.

http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=7191

[alcibiades_mystery]

17. You don't know that

And your source is laughable.

[strizi64]

22. But I do..... SAM-7

http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=/watch%3Fv%3Ds6gSeHkmxIg

[alcibiades_mystery]

23. You do?

That YouTube video is of the helicopter that was shot down today? Really? And you know the provenance of the missile? From the YouTube video?

Wow. You must be a magician...

:eyes:

[Mortos]

18. How do you know

Iran gave them shoulder fired missiles. The reports I have read indicate the choppers were brought down by small arms fire or machine gun fire. I haven't read any reports of missiles bringing down these aircraft, let alone Iranian supplied missiles.

If you are theorizing then say it. If you have some factual information, then provide it.

Using the Bush escalation talking points when it comes to Iran is inflammatory and helps build the case for another unneccessary war.

Your source is a story dated from May 2006. Don't you think if it was factual, the alleged Iranian supplied missiles would have been used before now?

Again, I haven't read anything recent or credible that indicates the downed choppers were hit with missiles.

[truth2power]

44. "If you are theorizing, then say it."....

Ahem...I think he said "probably."

[Lasher]

47. Tee hee

I've been trying out this brand new restraint thing lately and wasn't going to react to that. But I had to come back and thank you for the chuckle.

Lasher

[truth2power]

51. Pleased to be of service..

:evilgrin:

[mikeytherat]

19. A .50 caliber machine gun can bring down a chopper rather quickly.

No need for SAMs.

mikey_the_rat

[tanyev]

20. Or purchased with money from Saudi citizens

Saudi Citizens Funding Shoulder Fired Rockets

Private Saudi citizens are giving millions of dollars to Sunni insurgents in Iraq and much of the money is used to buy weapons, including shoulder fired anti-aircraft missiles, according to key Iraqi officials and others familiar with the flow of cash.
Saudi government officials deny that any money from their country is being sent to Iraqis fighting the government and the U.S.-led coalition.

But the U.S. Iraq Study Group report said Saudis are a source of funding for Sunni Arab insurgents. Several truck drivers interviewed by The Associated Press described carrying boxes of cash from Saudi Arabia into Iraq, money they said was headed for insurgents.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=112731

[Lasher]

33. That seems a likely scenario.

5 aircraft in 18 days causes me to suspect that there's something different going on there.

[roamer65]

34. The Saudis did it to the USSR in Afghanistan...

and now they're doing it to us in Iraq.:mad:

[TexasLawyer]

36. The Sunnis are the ones that really want the Americans out

Shi'ites (and Iran) benefit from US taking out Saddam and protecting the Shi'ite majority.

[Lasher]

46. Yes, I try to remember that Texas

The once-ruling Sunni minority is the biggest loser here. But let's also keep in mind that every single one of the Shi'ites is not our pal.

[Massachusetts]

21. Welcome to the meat grinder

FU Bushco! Wake up people!

[gulliver]

25. Down in Sunni territory. Ergo, not Iran.

on edit: Changed "Shot down" to just "down." We don't know whether it was shot down.

[theHandpuppet]

32. Good point, gulliver

But some folks don't let logic get in the way of a good day's propaganda war aginst Iran.

[Porcupine]

49. Iran wouldn't give Al Quaeda a toothpick.....

much less a SAM. Get real. Those missiles were funded by our good friends the Saudi's; everyone knows that.

[Lasher]

50. Might be right about that.

Maybe for the same reasons Al Qaeda never had a presence in Iraq, despite Lord Vader's endless assertions to the contrary. They could be even Stingers like I said. We let some of those get away from us and we didn't get them back. Iran got some of them and learned how to copy the technology. But lucky for us, Stingers don't have much of a shelf life.

But money talks. An acquisition from Russia is not out of the question.

[kingoth]

57. why?

al quaida is Sunni so is Iran

[oblivious]

59. Maybe you mean Saudi Arabia is mostly Sunni, not Iran.

[Nihil]

60. DFTT (n/t)

:hi:

[maddezmom]

4. Reuters: U.S. checking reports Chinook down in Iraq

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - The U.S. military said it was checking reports that a helicopter, possibly a Chinook transport aircraft, had either crashed or made an emergency landing near Baghdad on Wednesday.

An Iraqi policeman who had been to the area northwest of Baghdad told Reuters he had seen wreckage on the ground. One witness who said he saw the helicopter come down also said he had seen wreckage.

U.S. soldiers had moved in to secure the area, witnesses said.

"We have heard about this ... but I cannot confirm anything at this stage," said Lieutenant-Colonel Christopher Garver, a U.S. military spokesman in Baghdad.


The U.S. military said on Sunday it was adjusting its tactics in Iraq after four helicopters were shot down over a two-week period.

more:http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyid=2007-02-07T102343Z_01_L07909370_RTRUKOC_0_US-IRAQ-HELICOPTER.xml

[wakeme2008]

5. This may not be good... Chinooks carry a lot of troops

:cry:

[maddezmom]

6. I was just looking at the entry in wiki

I just hope it was carrying equipment and not troops. :(

[xchrom]

7. don't these helicopters radio in

if they are under fire?

the news that comes from the pentagon -- and not that i trust it anyway -- is frustratingly slow when it comes to casualties.

[maddezmom]

8. CNNI has Caldwell on now saying he can confirm the helicopter

down, but can't confirm casualties at this time.

[maddezmom]

9. it was a CH-46 Sea Knight

US military confirms transport chopper down in Iraq
07 Feb 2007 12:41:06 GMT
Source: Reuters

BAGHDAD, Feb 7 (Reuters) - The U.S. military confirmed on Wednesday that a transport helicopter had come down near Baghdad but declined comment on any casualties.

"We have a CH-46 that is down," U.S. military spokesman Major-General William Caldwell told reporters, referring to the twin-rotor Sea Knight, the Marine version of the Chinook, which can carry up to 55 passengers and two crew.

http://mobile.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/YAT745182.htm

[The Stranger]

30. It was reported that he said reporting casualties would be "inappropriate," which led The Stranger

to exclaim (in yet more disillusioned disbelief), "Are you fucking kidding me?"

[panader0]

10. Another helicopter down

Could be a troop transport, went down NW of Bahgdad.

[HereSince1628]

11. Is this the same event as previously reported?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2720407

[Eurobabe]

12. This is freaking insanity. Now how's bout that surge?

:puke:

[cal04]

13. CNN:military helicopter has gone down

U.S. says a military helicopter has gone down northwest of Baghdad; no word on casualties

http://www.cnn.com/

[maddezmom]

14. AP: U.S. military says copter down in Iraq

The CH-46 helicopter went down about 20 miles northwest of the capital, U.S. military spokesman Maj. Gen. William Caldwell said, but he declined to comment on casualties.

"A quick reaction force is on site and the investigation is going on as we speak," he said. "It would probably be inappropriate for me to talk about whether or not there are or are not casualties."

Witnesses said the helicopter had been shot down in a field in the Sheik Amir area northwest of Baghdad, sending smoke rising from the scene, in a Sunni-dominated area between the Taji air base, 12 miles north of Baghdad, and Garma, 20 miles west of the capital. and Garma, 20 miles to the west of the capital.

"The helicopter was flying and passed over us, then we heard the firing of a missile," said Mohammad al-Janabi, a farmer who was speaking less than a half-mile from the wreckage. "The helicopter, then, turned into a ball of fire. It flew in a circle twice, then it went down."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070207/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq;_ylt=AlV_YAJoLBGqtmz9Ra2RxwALewgF

[nitpicker]

15. The Reuters version.

US military confirms transport chopper down in Iraq
07 Feb 2007 12:50:50 GMT
Source: Reuters
Printable view | Email this article | RSS <-> Text <+>
Background
Iraq in turmoil
More (Adds fresh quote, clarifies number of troops CH-46 can carry)

BAGHDAD, Feb 7 (Reuters) - The U.S. military confirmed on Wednesday that a transport helicopter had come down near Baghdad but declined to comment on any casualties.

"We have a CH-46 that is down," U.S. military spokesman Major-General William Caldwell told reporters, referring to the twin-rotor Sea Knight, the Marine version of the Chinook, which can carry up to 25 passengers and four crew.

Caldwell said it had come down 12 miles northwest of Baghdad. He did not say whether it had been brought down by mechanical failure or ground fire.

"There is a quick reaction force on site. It would be inappropriate for me to talk about casualties," Caldwell said.

[Doctor_J]

24. That's 4 in two weeks

the Iraqis/insurgents have some effective weaponry. Time to vamoose.

[harun]

28. 5 in 18 days (cnn) (n/t)

[librarycard]

35. And we still haven't figured out how it is so many are crashing?

That must mean the news is negative for Bush. Did Bremer's cash pay for accurate missiles?

[Roy]

37. Maybe we should hire whoever trained THEM......

Why does the the Iraqis' the US is training need so much more training than the guys they are being trained to fight.
They are holding their own without back up air support, quick response task forces, night vision, etc.

And they still have time to kill off a bunch of civilians daily in their spare time.

[jollyreaper2112]

26. my only surprise

Is that there aren't more choppers being downed with SAMs. Perhaps the ones Saddam had might have been captured during the invasion but you'd think that the other powers with a vested interest in the region would be smuggling them in, just like we did with stingers in Afghanistan. There wouldn't have to be a whole lot of missiles, just enough to down a few choppers in a short timespan and force the US to change tactics. If we're no longer able to employ choppers in the most effective fashion to avoid having them shot down, that's an actual victory for the terrorists. (Or should I say they would be emboldened?) I had a terrorism class in college, the instructor was ex-BATF. He was in on a sting operation where an IRA guy got busted for trying to buy a stinger over here. The SAS made a lot of use of choppers in their raids on IRA stronghouses. The idea wasn't to buy enough missiles to knock every Brit out of the sky, they only needed to down one chopper. At that point the Brits would have no idea how many more missiles the IRA had.

Let's face it, Bush IS making more enemies for us over there and we had quite a few who weren't too happy with us to begin with. Especially with the state of our imperial overreach, I'm surprised there isn't more foreign military aid flowing in. I know people here dislike the story but this really is just like Breer Rabbit getting in a fight with the tar baby and we're getting ourselves good and stuck.

Another thing to think about, if Bush gets his war with Iran; if I were the Iranian supreme commander, my first strike would be picking a likely carrier and salvoing a shitload of my homebrew antiship missiles at it. Would I likely have enough missiles to take out the whole US Navy? Nope. Will I sink this one? Probably not, but I bet I could fuck their day up. Just a few missile hits would cause the US Navy to completely change their operations in the area. The ships would have to stand so far offshore to provide a defense buffer against missiles that their aircraft would be completely hampered.

[dipsydoodle]

27. BBC link

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6338787.stm

[Ezlivin]

31. Wait until the V-22 Osprey sees combat

That problematic aircraft has a difficult time in peaceful conditions. I can't imagine trying to land it in the heat of battle.

Think helicopters are falling from the sky now? Wait until the V-22 enters combat.

[krispos42]

38. Well, assuming they've got the problems licked on the Osprey...

It's fairly new technology, so they have that to struggle with. But the crash rate might actually go down, at least due to ground fire. The V-22 is much faster in transit than any transpport and probably more agile, too. All the better to dodge machine-gun fire and unguided rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs).

I doubt it would by any help against shoulder-fired surface-to-air missiles, though.

[Ezlivin]

39. And that's a big assumption

Back in 1993 I was working on my Private Pilot's license. I flew out of Arlington Municipal Airport which, at the time, was the busiest municipal airport in the country.

Bell Helicopter is located next to the airport and shared the single runway. There were many times I was rolling out to queue up when the V-22 would roll out and take over the runway. Now the V-22 is a big aircraft compared to the Piper I was flying. And Bell often acted as if no other aircraft were there; one time we had to abort a landing on final (!) because a V-22 just rolled out onto the runway as we descended. My CFI was with me and he was outraged.

Anyway, the V-22 was undergoing flight testing and they were hoping then to get the bugs ironed out.

It's been 14 years and they are still ironing out bugs. The only reason the program still exists is because of DoD whores (we call them representatives, but they don't represent us, just defense contractors).

If I were a gambling man I wouldn't bet on the V-22 seeing combat this year.

[happyslug]

41. I suspect the problem is NOT the approach but as the Helicopter nears its LZ

At that point the V-22 will be going form vertical to horizontal flight and subject to the same problem the Helicopter pilots are suffering from, trying to fly the right height to be high enough to avoid ground fire, but low enough to avoid being locked on by a heat seeking missile AND still be able to land or pick up personnel. I suspect that until recently Pilots fly high to avoid Ground fire but with the introduction of Heat Seeking Missiles the pilots have to start to fly lower (and come into range of Ground fire).

[krispos42]

58. Ah, the joys of the multilayered defense... n/t

[saigon68]

43. Billions spent on a useless piece of Crap

[Bhaisahab]

48. 7 apparently killed in military chopper crash

7 apparently killed in military chopper crash

February 7, 2007

By KIM GAMEL

ASSOCIATED PRESS

WASHINGTON — The U.S. military believes all seven people aboard a CH-46 helicopter that crashed in Iraq on Wednesday were killed, and indications are that it was not hit by hostile fire, a senior U.S. defense official said.

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the investigation was still under way, said the helicopter went down between Baghdad and Fallujah and that the crash appeared to have been related to mechanical problems.

CONTINUED AT:
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070207/NEWS07/70207007/0/BLOG13

[tom_paine]

61. Bet the Russians are giving the mujahedeen missiles to shoot ours down

Just like we gave the same guys Stinger missiles to shoot the Russian choppers down in the 80s.

In either case, the timlelines of the "introduction" of massive anti-air power to mujahedeen insurgents is remarkably similar to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan to the Bushevik Invasion of Iraq.

[ama]

62. insurgent video of missiles downing chinook

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1ec7d3ccc6