Telegraph: Israel seeks all clear for Iran air strike

[Contrite]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/24/wiran124.xml

Israel is negotiating with the United States for permission to fly over Iraq as part of a plan to attack Iran's nuclear facilities, The Daily Telegraph can reveal.

To conduct surgical air strikes against Iran's nuclear programme, Israeli war planes would need to fly across Iraq. But to do so the Israeli military authorities in Tel Aviv need permission from the Pentagon.

A senior Israeli defence official said negotiations were now underway between the two countries for the US-led coalition in Iraq to provide an "air corridor" in the event of the Israeli government deciding on unilateral military action to prevent Teheran developing nuclear weapons.

"We are planning for every eventuality, and sorting out issues such as these are crucially important," said the official, who asked not to be named.

"The only way to do this is to fly through US-controlled air space. If we don't sort these issues out now we could have a situation where American and Israeli war planes start shooting at each other."

(more)

[Gloria]

1. John Edwards said that the most dangerous thing now was if Israel

attacked Iran....Guess he won't be happy about being right on this one...

[NCarolinawoman]

22. If John Edwards says the same thing when he meets with AIPAC next month,

I might pay a little more attention to him.

Until then, I have learned to take his statements with a "grain of salt".

[Tom Rinaldo]

47. Self Delete. Wrong placememnt. n/t

[Kagemusha]

2. Hmm, I ask (somewhat rhetorically), does sovereign Iraq have any say?

This article doesn't even MENTION Iraq's government.

[TheBaldyMan]

21. Does Iraq have an Air Force or any air defences ?

from what I heard the Israelis have approached the Yanks EOM.

[Kagemusha]

24. That's not like, the point...

but whatever.

[iconoclastic cat]

50. Iraq's government? You're soaking in it! nt

[JerseygirlCT]

79. LOL! nt

[LonelyLRLiberal]

68. Funny that, huh?

Sometimes they just let it slip whose country it is. Oops!

[Tesha]

119. You're *VERY* funny! "Sovereign Iraq" -- that's a real knee-slapper! (NT)

[anitar1]

3. Bloodthirsty fools. No idea what they are unleashing. n/t

[CookieD]

85. Bloodthirsty??

Yeah, that's it. Isreal doesn't care about a nuclear Iran. All Israel wants is to spill Persian blood.

:sarcasm:

[VegasWolf]

86. If Israel wants to play aggressor, it's time to cut them lose. Why should we care if they are stupid

enough to go attacking other countries in the Middle East.

[Tesha]

120. Sure they know what they're unleashing.

> Bloodthirsty fools. No idea what they are unleashing.

Sure they know what they're unleashing: reprisals
against us, the United States.

Think they care?

Tesha

[Maat]

4. This is SO wrong!

Preemptive and preventative war are SO illegal AND immoral!

[Cobalt-60]

5. Well, let's hope the insurgents

have some old Sa-2s to throw at the Israelis.( my favorite sam)
Even if they don't, Iran has a generous supply of the very latest Russian missiles.
They know the attack is coming.
They know where the attack is going.
Sounds like a flak gauntlet.

[Big Pappa]

49. Are you

encouraging the "insurgents" to take out the Israeli AF? The same insurgents that are killing our soldiers? This is disgusting. And btw, no, I do not believe Israel should attack Iran. But, this is just sick.

[Malikshah]

59. Taking out an invading force? That's disgusting now?

OK. I'll remember that when and if the US is invaded. I'll count you out.

[Cobalt-60]

69. not really

I guess that did come out wrong.
They can expect a flak party from the Iranians if they attack there, of course.

[Don Claybrook]

87. The Israeli Air Force over Iranian airspace?

Shouldn't the Iranians just learn to watch their children die without complaining so much about it? Is that what you'd like to see? Which part of the notion of self defense do you find disgusting?

[Sterling]

92. I think the Iranian government should learn a lot of things

Threatening Israel, pretending the Holocaust is a fabrication, killing gays, a long list of stuff the iranian government should learn, especially before they join the atomic club. I think Israel is willing to teach them at least one of those lessons if the US does not either find a way to get Iran to disarm peacefully or attack their nuke program ourselves.

I hope Iran choses to abandon their insane policies and rhetoric and most of all I hope they do not believe that they will be better off pushing their program to the point that we or another country intervenes.

[razors edge]

124. How many times has Iran invaded

another country in the last two hundred years?

How many times has Israel in the last 60?

Who has nuclear weapons in the ME. Iran, or Israel?

Who has threatened who it the region with nuclear weapons in the region for decades? (the arabs have the oil but we have the match)

As for questioning the details holocaust, I don't care if the germans used gas or machetes it was wrong. I don't care if they killed six or sixty million people because of their religion, it was wrong. The devil was not in the details on this. Passing a law to make questioning the details is counterproductive since truth needs no law to preserve itself, such laws only bring these petty questions to light. I have not heard anyone from Iran say they didn't kill jews for being jewish. Their problem seams to be with punishing palastinians for the crime, as they see it.

If Iran detonated a nuke on friday they would be better off, just ask DPRK.

Ask yourself this question, what four nations in the world, when bush took office, (and I do mean took) were the only four nations in the world without a central bank?

Hint: one was a little country in africa that will probably have one soon anyway so ignore that one.

[Sterling]

91. "let's hope" lets not

Lets also not hope that the kind of people running Iran don't get any more power. Unless you think hanging gays and publicly calling for the destruction of the Jews is the kind of policy you want proliferating around the globe.

[INDIA]

100. That's disgusting n/t

[Dover]

6. The Telegraph? What official would reveal this info?

Skeptical.

[Marie26]

52. Me too

Especially because the "Daily Telegraph" is a Tory paper w/allies in the neoconservative network. Just this week, this paper also "released" another false story about how the Iraqi insurgents are using Iranian weapons, and they pushed a steady stream of WMD propaganda before the Iraq war. This unnamed source is probably a defense neocon. Which means that the neocons want people to think Israel is planning on attacking - though I'm not sure why. What is the point of planting this story?

"The Daily Telegraph and the neocon network"- http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_go2310/is_200306/ai_n8659382

On Smoking Guns And Neocon Shills -
http://cernigsnewshog.blogspot.com/2007/02/on-smoking-guns-and-neocon-shills.html

Con Coughlin, the Daily Telegraph & the ongoing business of conning the British -
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/12/357870.html

[Rhiannon12866]

108. I searched The Guardian for some reference to this and didn't find it.

And they're pretty reliable...:-)

[RogueBandit]

7. Maybe best if it does attack

Maybe it would be best because then the world could see the stupidity insanity of those in control of Israel. It looks like everything about this mid-east war will have to get worse before it gets better. Even the Dem leadership is way too embedded engrossed in this undeclared war.

[Contrite]

8. More : "Ready for War"

(snip)

As for Israel's offensive plans against Iran, the Iran Command team's task is to demonstrate that Israel has the capability to act unilaterally.

"No one is going to take this threat seriously until the State of Israel can demonstrate to the outside world that we have the ability to deal with this menace on our own," said a senior security official who serves on Iran Command.

"The only way we can put pressure on the outside world to deal effectively with Iran's nuclear programme is to demonstrate that we can do this ourselves."



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/24/nriran24.xml&page=1

[carla]

9. Israel is not acting unilaterally,

when they are getting permission from the Bush cabal. "No one is going to take this threat seriously..." should be a reference to Israel as aggressor. Iran has a right to develop nuclear power according to the NPF (non-proliferation treaty). The immediate reason for this planning is that Bush has had his hands tied internationally and domestically by the fiasco in Iraq. Maybe US citizens need to boycott Israeli goods and send letters to the Israeli consulates and embassies in the US to urge them to not act in such a suicidal manner? The IDF didn't prove very effective against Hezbollah in Lebanon, I can't see how they think they can actually take out Iran...this world is run by capitalist losers. And those losers want to kill off many more Jews, Muslims and Christians than each religion could do on its own.

[razors edge]

125. intestines of the last priest.

[HuffleClaw]

10. BWAHHAHHHAHHAHAHAaa

oh what utter bullshit

suuuuuure, blame the start of hostilities on the israelis. then they'll say 'we HAD to come to the aid of our SPECIAL friends!'

[Contrite]

11. Ding ding ding

Give the man a kewpie doll. Oh yes, they've just been "goading us" into it, haven't they?:eyes:

[Marie26]

54. Bingo. nt

[Sterling]

93. That is not what this is. Strange that people here cant see this for what it is.

This is Israels insurance policy. They are putting a ton of pressure on the US to act against Iran. Everyone knows this is the worst choice when dealing with Iran. The Israelis are just reminding everyone that if we don't do it , they will. I don't think we will make them go through the trouble and Israel will get credit for "showing restraint" like they did in DSTorm while we do all the work. I imagine if we attack Iran Israel will have their hands full on their own doorsteps.

[Eugene]

12. Reuters: Israel denies report it is planning an Iran attack

Israel denies report it is planning an Iran attack
24 Feb 2007 12:12:58 GMT
Source: Reuters

By Jonathan Saul

JERUSALEM, Feb 24 (Reuters) - Israel's deputy defence minister denied
on Saturday that Israel was in talks with the United States to use Iraqi
airspace as part of possible plans to attack Iranian nuclear sites.

Britain's Daily Telegraph, citing an unnamed senior Israeli defence
official, said on Saturday that Israel had sought permission from the U.S.
Pentagon to be able to use an "air corridor" in Iraq in the event that the
Jewish state decided to launch air strikes on Iranian nuclear facilities.

-snip-

Asked if Israel had turned to the U.S. to use Iraqi airspace in any
possible attack, Ephraim Sneh told Israel Radio: "No such approach has
been made -- that is clear."

"Those who do not want to take political, diplomatic, economic steps
against Iran are diverting attention to the mission we are supposedly
said to be conducting," Sneh said.

-snip-

Full article: http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L24386584.htm

[rodeodance]

35. Israel denies lots of things (like the US)

[ProudDad]

77. Israel denies a lot of things

like over 400 nuclear weapons.

They have to deny the nukes 'cause if they acknowledged them the U.S. is legally bound to stop the 4+ BILLION we send to prop up their right-wing regime.

Uh, well, they used to have to deny the nukes. Since this current bunch don't give a shit about International OR U.S. law, Israel doesn't really have to hide their nukes any more.

[Heidi]

13. Kick.

:kick:

[SHRED]

14. Report: Israel Wants to Fly Over Iraq

War and rumors of war.
With madmen at the helm of powerful nations, this what we will get.

---


February 24, 2007
Report: Israel Wants to Fly Over Iraq
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Filed at 6:56 a.m. ET

LONDON (AP) -- Israel opened negotiations to fly through U.S. controlled airspace in Iraq to carry out strikes on Iranian nuclear facilities, a British newspaper reported Saturday. Israel's deputy defense minister denied the claim.

The Daily Telegraph newspaper quoted an unnamed Israeli defense official as saying the talks were aimed at planning for all scenarios, including any future decision to target Iran's nuclear program.

Israeli bombers would need a corridor through U.S.-administered airspace in Iraq to carry out any strikes, the official was quoted as saying by the newspaper.

Ephraim Sneh, Israel's Deputy Defense Minister, told The Associated Press on Saturday that the report was incorrect. ''This is baseless information,'' Sneh said. ''Maybe people like to divert (attention from) the need for immediate economic sanctions (with) stories about imminent Israeli action, which is not on the agenda.''

MORE:
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Britain-Israel-Iran.html


---

[orpupilofnature57]

15. The Daily Telegraph could be a vehicle for Shrubs war on u.s. .....

.... Fuck it unfounded statements about Iraq ,should be substantiated or exposed for what it is, MSM doing what it does best, telling us nothing and roiling the picture and helping Kkkarl's Boss.

[ixion]

16. It's time to stop allowing extremists to control the global dialog

all these people know is murder, death and destruction. It's a blood-sport for them as they sit behind fortified walls in immaculately-landscaped settings and decide the fates of people far less fortunate than they.

A beautiful world, eh? :-(

[ohio2007]

17. A knee jerk reaction out of Iran is whats wanted from an article such as this

Maybe it's all about sanctions.

[loudsue]

107. Great post!! And sooo true!

Short, concise and to the point. I'm tired of these megalomaniacs controlling world governments. We need some frikkin' ADULTS running governments, NOT a bunch of maniacs or inexperienced pretty boys/girls.

:kick::kick::kick:

[MADem]

18. Let's take a walk down Memory Lane, shall we? That report gives one flashbacks

1981: Israel bombs Baghdad nuclear reactor
The Israelis have bombed a French-built nuclear plant near Iraq's capital, Baghdad, saying they believed it was designed to make nuclear weapons to destroy Israel.
It is the world's first air strike against a nuclear plant.

An undisclosed number of F-15 interceptors and F-16 fighter bombers destroyed the Osirak reactor 18 miles south of Baghdad, on the orders of Prime Minister Menachem Begin.

The army command said all the Israeli planes returned safely.

The 70-megawatt uranium-powered reactor was near completion but had not been stocked with nuclear fuel so there was no danger of a leak, according to sources in the French atomic industry.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/7/newsid_3014000/3014623.stm

[ohio2007]

19. EU's 'pit bull' ready to be unleashed.

That's how Iran would spin it
http://www2.irna.ir/en/news/view/line-22/0702224148125555.htm

Wonder if the mullahs will bless the student movement and allow a repeat of the '79 hostage crises ?


any thoughts?

[TheBaldyMan]

20. How about saying, 'No and we'll shoot down any jets that try'

what warmongering idiots the Israelis are, the IAEA has found ZERO evidence of weapon production and that is mainly because the Iranians are using their nuclear facilities for civilian purposes only.

They have always stressed that they view the use of nuclear weapons as unislamic. Thaty's a big deal coming from an Islamic republic. Bush and Olmertz will have to GET OVER IT, Iran doesn't have nukes.

Nor do they have a notion to think about perhaps developing nukes at some point in the future

[Pavulon]

73. IAEA

found 90% enriched uranium, twice. That has only one purpose. Squish it and it goes boom. They want nukes like a dude at the prom wants ...

It is up to Europe and the UN to work with them to negotiate a real solution.

[TheBaldyMan]

75. Where is your evidence for that claim?

The Iranians are years away from producing enough fissile material FOR ONE SINGLE BOMB.

How much 90% enriched Uranium was found on each occassion?


on edit:IAEA reported on Thursday 22nd Feb 2007 that Iran had almost 1000 centrifuges, however atomic technology experts say that 3000 centrifuges working flat out for a year are needed to produce enough eniched uranium for one warhead.

[TheWatcher]

81. As usual, he doesn't have any.

Just chest-beating and posturing.

[TheWatcher]

80. But people like you will be really dissapointed if they actually come up with one.

It's getting harder and harder for you to hide your erection isn't it?

You seem to want war with Iran.

You seem to get so aroused when these stories come up.

I imagine you'll have to clean off your monitor when the first bomb falls.

Hope it's good for you pal.

[oblivious]

110. How many times does this propaganda have to be debunked?

What this disinformation specialist fails to mention is that the IAEA concluded that the 'traces' of weapons-grade uranium entered Iran on equipment imported from Pakistan.

[FarCenter]

23. This will isolate Israel, and Iran will win open Russian and Chinese backing

An Israeli strike on Iran would break some stuff and kill some Iranians.

The more important outcome would be that it would complete Israel's isolation as a Pariah state, except for its lone backer, the US.

Iran would be invited into the SCO as a member, and the SCO would be reformulated as a military alliance.

What would happen in Pakistan? Probably Mush would be gone and Islamists in control?

[Theduckno2]

25. One small question. What other countries would the Israelis fly over?

Wouldn't Israelis have to fly over Syria, Jordan or Saudi Arabia to get to Iraqi airspace? What do they have to say?

It seems to me that the narrow targeting of the Osirak reactor in Iraq was one thing, but accounts of an impending Iran attack point towards a much wider attack.

[rodeodance]

26. "Tel Aviv need permission from the Pentagon" to fly over IraQ? guess

iraq does have a sovereign nation. right??????????

[ensho]

27. it's like Israel has gone suicidal

and like Israel knows the neo cons will back them up with the US military and the US private contractors.

but how pissed off will the rest of the world be and will that piss hit Israel?

[cali]

28. This is ridiculous.

This is from The Telegraph which is to the right of the WSJ- and it's from an unnamed source, to boot. For many, many tactical reasons, the Israelis will NOT be attacking Iran's nuclear program. This is about the U.S. and Israel putting pressure on Iran. In itself idiotic, but not nearly as idiotic as an actual attack.

[ensho]

31. hi cali - this is donsu, I've had to change username to ensho

nt

[cali]

32. Hi, donsu.

Good to see you.

[IndianaGreen]

29. Israel lacks the military resources for a successful strike against Iran

Iran is not Iraq! Unlike Iraq, Iran's nuclear facilities are spread out all over the country, and they are mostly underground. The plans of a US strike against Iran, which were leaked in the British press, involve a bombing campaign lasting several days, without any guarantees of success. If the US can't do it, neither can Israel. I can only speculate that Israel wants to force America's hands by triggering a war in Iran, a war for which no Israeli blood will be spilled when things turn sour.

Unfortunately we have two countries, Israel and USA, that have deluded themselves into thinking that some all powerful Supreme Being guides all their actions and that will protect them from their own folly. One would think that after the Holocaust and the Iraq quagmire we would have proof enough that there is no such Supreme Being, and if there were to be one, then this Supreme Being is not interested enough in human affairs to care one iota about human suffering.

One thing that is for certain, the only way Israel can bomb Iran on her own is by flying over Iraqi or Turkish air space. America will be blamed for her complicity in Israel's attack, even in the unlikely event that we are blameless, and it will be American troops in Iraq that will pay the ultimate price when the inevitable Shia revenge comes.

[Marie26]

55. Especially since the Lebanon disaster. nt

[lovuian]

30. I believe the Telegraph Iran is going nuclear and nobody is

going to stop it...IAE has reached its end

I think they went for Plan B cause time is running out
and the Democratic Congress is giving Bush fits

Israel will have to pick the ball up here but America will follow eagerly

WWIII is coming

Guess time will tell if the Telegraph is right

[Marie26]

53. I wouldn't believe the Telegraph

anymore than we'd believe the Washington Times. It's the British equivalent of Fox News. This story just cites one unnamed defense official, and sometimes they don't bother citing a source at all. It's all about spreading the lies.

[The Stranger]

33. A threat of preemptive war -- wait, I thought the Iranians were supposed to be the threat here.

[Zhade]

42. Preventative (whish is illegal), not preemptive.

There is no evidence Iran posses nuclear weapons. There is no indication of an impending attack from iran.

(I know you know this; I pointed it out for lurkers.)

[coalition_unwilling]

34. Better prepare ourselves for 150,000+ American POWs in Iraq if

Israel goes through with this. Do you really think the Shia'a of Iraq will not spontaneously erupt against the occupation if our proxy attacks Iran? If you think the US body count of 3,000+ is bad, it's nothing compared to what the body count will be when and if Israel attacks Iran.

Other possible consequences: Musharraf of Pakistan overthrown in a military coup, leaving ISI and Islamist forces in control of a nuclear arsenal.

$200-300/barrel oil as Shia'a of eastern Saudia Arabia spontaneously erupt and take over Saudi oil fields. Buh-bye Kuwait. Sayonara Dubai.

And that's not even a worst-case scenario, I don't think, although the mind boggles at how it could get much worse than what I have laid out above.

[Sterling]

94. Wow, this kind of talk looks really silly.

I don't understand why people here are willing to believe the most outrageous things in terms of military affairs. I wont even try to explain to you why lines like this look completely silly to anyone with the most basic understanding of this stuff.

It looks really really bad because it's such ignorant commentary but mainly because it is obvious wishful thinking by people who are supposed to be loyal Americans but want to see our military defeated so badly they latch on to the craziest conclusions and predictions of failure for our military.

[coalition_unwilling]

102. Since you do not refute any of my predictions specifically, instead

engaging in ad hominem attacks, it is rather difficult to respond in any meaningful sense.

[Sterling]

113. Ok here you go.

I imagine it would be very hard for you to respond "in a meaningful sense" given the content of the post I replied to. Predicting that 150,000 of our soldiers in Iraq would become Iranian prisoners of war if a conflict arises is completely silly. To think that would happen is to completely ignore the most basic realities of the situation. If you are genuinely interested and want to "learn" I am sure I or someone else here can help explain it to you. I personally have grown very tired of responding to peoples wishful thinking that our military is going to get it's ass kicked by (insert name of third world country here) when in fact these people don't know and don't care to know what modern warfare is like and what the real world capabilities of the various forces involved are.

It makes me embarrassed to be in the same party with people who
A. don't know shit but talk like they are experts with all sorts of ridiculous predictions of doom and gloom.
B. openly hope for ill will to come to our soldiers.

I protested the Iraq war vigorously. Far more than I am sure may here did. I did it well ahead of it becoming popular as did many DUers here at the time. I however did not sign up for some America hating bullshit that is beneath people who claim to want a new direction for our country and claim to have the leadership needed for the task.

For the most part what I see now here makes me wonder if our side deserves to take charge. Face it "our side" did next to nothing to prevent this war, now "our side" seems to be doing everything possible to see us fail. The bottom of the barrel are those who long for that failure.

[coalition_unwilling]

121. Once more the ad hominem attacks come fast and furious from you.

So here's one right back at you: I'll bet had you been alive in August 1914, you would have predicted a quick, easy conflict when Austria-Hungary invaded Serbia.

Fact: British are in process of abandoning Southern Iraq, through which our most important supply lines (and avenues of retreat) must run.

Fact: Population of southern Iraq is predominantly Shia'a. Do you seriously believe that an attack by us or by our land-locked aircraft carrier Israel on Iran will not be met by a mass uprising throughout Iraq?

Fact: Iraqi Resistance has demonstrated ability to shoot down our helicopters.

So how exactly would our forces retreat if and when we attack Iran? Or perhaps you don't seriously believe they will have to retreat, that they can hunker down in their "Fort Apache" garrisons, if and when the attack on Iran materializes? Of course, that ignores the trenchant question of re-supply, as those supply lines run north from Kuwait through Southern Iraq.

I have been protesting this latest venture in Western imperialism since November 2001, so my protester cred is at least as solid as yours if not more so. I participate in two weekly anti-war vigils going on 5+ years now

I am sorry American working class soliders are dying and being wounded to advance the interests of a few rich men and women. But I am not sorry to see Western imperialism defeated.

[kitty1]

36. Israel seeking consent to fly over Iraq for Iran strike

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/24/wiran124.xml

According the the Daily Telegraph, Israel is seeking permission from the U.S. to fly over Iraq in order to target strikes on nuclear facilities. No surprise, Israel is denying everything. It doesn't mean there's an imminent attack coming. It's precaution just in case.
So folks, the plot thickens. Stay tuned to see Israel and the U.S tap dance their way around this one.

[IndianaGreen]

37. dupe

Here is the earlier thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2743718

[Zynx]

38. They actually need to seek consent from the Iraqi government.

Iraq is supposedly independent.

[leftchick]

40. lol

that is a joke right?

[kitty1]

39. Key word "supposedly" We all know who runs the show there n/t

[ohio2007]

41. Israel denies report it is planning an Iran attack

Just media hype to get the mullahs nerves twitching

<snip> Neither Israel nor the United States has ruled out military force on Iran, although Washington says its priority is to reach a diplomatic solution.
<snip>
The five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council plus Germany will meet in London next week to discuss possible further steps in addition to U.N. sanctions barring the transfer of nuclear technology and know-how that were imposed in December.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070224/ts_nm/israel_iran_dc

[Zhade]

43. So...why would the rightwing Telegraph lie about the rightwing Israeli government?

Is the Telegraph trying to goad us/them?

Is this really all about sanctioning Iran over a nonexistent threat, in an effort to further lock down world oil prices?

What's the Telegrpah doing here?

[ohio2007]

46. Yet , you've noticed oil is going up,up,up

so much for clamping down prices on the world market

[The Stranger]

44. At the very least, it was a trial balloon.

[ohio2007]

45. Much like the taunting of Osama by British tabloids

claiming he has a bounty on Hary's head
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54405

They'll say whatever it takes to sell the news

[The Stranger]

84. No, this isn't tabloid.

It becomes clearer and clearer they floated the story to see what blowback would be when they decide to pull the trigger.

[Sterling]

95. Yes in a way.

It is kind of a warning to the US and Iran as well as propaganda for the home front. They are letting everyone know that Iran's nukes are going down, even if they must do it themselves. Everyone knows we wont make them go through the trouble.

[Tom Rinaldo]

48. Please join the effort at StopIranWar.com

It is being led by American veterans trying to prevent war with Iran. The site has information and petitions, but also software to identify local media to write to. Here is the url:

http://www.stopiranwar.com/

[IndianaGreen]

51. Thank you very much for the link to stopiranwar.com, Tom Rinaldo

When someone as level headed as Wes Clark pushes the alarm button about a war on Iran, he got my attention.

[Tom Rinaldo]

56. Clark is dead serious about Bush wanting to attack Iran

and he talks to a whole lot more people with inside connections to the military than you or I. The StopIranWar.com project is not planned as a one time blast of emails on a petition, it is part of a newly launched ongoing campaign to alert the public to the danger of war with Iran starting soon. A focus of the site write now is to spur on writing letters to the editors of local newspapers, and they have software set up to help folks connect with their local papers.
Plus the launch of the site is fueling a live media appearance blitz to do as many talk shows about the pending war with Iran as possible. More elements of the campaign are still in the works.

It would help if more folks here at DU shared the link to that web site with their personal email lists to help keep the ball rolling. StopIranWar.com carefully avoids framing itself as a blantently partisan appeal, based on the belief that some Republicans and Independents also can be brought on board to resist another disasterous war. That will help put pressure on Republicans in Congress also to break with Bush over starting another war. It is fronted by VoteVets.org and Clark's Securing America to stress the fact that Americas vets oppose another war.

This is really it IG, the final big push to prevent the next war before it begins.

[Contrite]

57. Mine too. n/t

[Countdown_3_2_1]

58. Iran HAS threatened to wipe out Israel. Is anyone surprised Israel is taking this seriously?

Israel did this kinda thing before when she took out Iraq's nuke sites.

I think * and Israel have had this planned all along.
I don't think we intend to invade Iran, but a bombing campaign can be accomplished within the time frame of the "War Powers Act:" 60 to 90 days of military activity without congressional approval.

[Malikshah]

60. Please give the statements on which you are basing this claim to

justify yet another invasion of a sovereign country.

I'd like to see the words, not some half-baked innuendo.

[Countdown_3_2_1]

61. OK, here they are.

And I'm not justifying anything. I'm just saying Israel acts this way to threats. they have done this before. Do you want the link to the IDF's Bombing of the Iraq sites too?

Thursday, October 27, 2005
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/10/27/ahmadinejad.reaction/
(CNN) -- U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan has expressed "dismay" over the Iranian president's comments urging the destruction of Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Powers_Act
For the "War Powers Act of 1973" requiring the President to gain approval from Congress for military operations within 60 days

[Malikshah]

63. And here I thought there'd be something new. The old red herring.

"wiped off" line-- and from CNN to boot... in 2005!!

There has been a lot of water under the bridge since then regarding this canard:
--context of statement
--translation of statement
--quoting statement made by previous figure
--CNN
--2005
And then, wikipedia? I mean...wikipedia?

If that was a reason to go to war?? Poorly translated statements, taken out of context, and then wikipedia articles?

Please tell me this is not what foreign policy has come to...

Just because crap is spewed over and over again does not make it true. On the other hand, we *do* live in the US...

OK, ya sold me with the wet-tissue laden heap of offal. Let's go to war! Oh, What a Lovely War it will be!

[Countdown_3_2_1]

66. What matters is that Israel BELIEVES Iran is a threat.

Quotes, context...mean nothing.
Israel WILL bomb Iran if she thinks the threat is real

[Malikshah]

71. Preemptive strikes, we should know, are self-fulfilling prophecies

and do *nothing* to solve anything.

[Sterling]

96. Sorry, I've seen the video from the conference

David Duke was a guest of honor. The big banners reading "a world without zionism" behind the podium. These guys have a super hard on to fire up the gas chambers again. It is really dangerous to pretend they are not serious.

[Countdown_3_2_1]

64. Some more links

Dec 14
http://www.iran-press-service.com/articles_2001/dec_2001/rafsanjani_nuke_threats_141201.htm
RAFSANJANI SAYS MUSLIMS SHOULD USE NUCLEAR WEAPON AGAINST ISRAEL

Saturday, 15 April 2006
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4912198.stm
Israel condemns Iranian threats

[Malikshah]

72. Here's one that helps with regard to the statements

http://www.juancole.com/2006/06/steele-on-ahmadinejad-of-arenas-of.html

[kitty1]

62. Actually that statement about wanting Israel wiped off the map...

is taken out of context from the actual translation of the original farsi language used.
Apparently the word map and wiped out was never used. The pres of Iran was quoting the Khomeni's original statement regarding major changes that had taken place in global politics recently. How nations such as the Soviet Union had undergone a major political collapse and that Israel's regime should follow suite.
From the truthseekers.co.uk, is an excerpt on what the president quoted.

THE SPEECH AND CONTEXT:

While the false "wiped off the map" extract has been repeated infinitely without verification, Ahmadinejad's actual speech itself has been almost entirely ignored. Given the importance placed on the "map" comment, it would be sensible to present his words in their full context to get a fuller understanding of his position. In fact, by looking at the entire speech, there is a clear, logical trajectory leading up to his call for a "world without Zionism". One may disagree with his reasoning, but critical appraisals are infeasible without first knowing what that reasoning is.

In his speech, Ahmadinejad declares that Zionism is the West's apparatus of political oppression against Muslims. He says the "Zionist regime" was imposed on the Islamic world as a strategic bridgehead to ensure domination of the region and its assets. Palestine, he insists, is the frontline of the Islamic world's struggle with American hegemony, and its fate will have repercussions for the entire Middle East.

Ahmadinejad acknowledges that the removal of America's powerful grip on the region via the Zionists may seem unimaginable to some, but reminds the audience that, as Khomeini predicted, other seemingly invincible empires have disappeared and now only exist in history books. He then proceeds to list three such regimes that have collapsed, crumbled or vanished, all within the last 30 years:

(1) The Shah of Iran- the U.S. installed monarch
(2) The Soviet Union
(3) Iran's former arch-enemy, Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein

In the first and third examples, Ahmadinejad prefaces their mention with Khomeini's own words foretelling that individual regime's demise. He concludes by referring to Khomeini's unfulfilled wish: "The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time. This statement is very wise". This is the passage that has been isolated, twisted and distorted so famously. By measure of comparison, Ahmadinejad would seem to be calling for regime change, not war.

[Countdown_3_2_1]

65. Sorry, but thats crap.

It doesn't matter what you or I believe.
What matters is what Israel believes.

If Israel believes iran is going to nuke her, then YES she will bomb Iranian nukes sites!

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Malikshah]

74. Wow....what others in the world believes don't mean much?

OK... now that we're all clear on that.

It should be the task of any sane leader to drill it into the heads of Olmet, et al that they need to step back from the abyss or they will condemn the region and world to oblivion.

Olmert and Co. need to grow up.

[Don Claybrook]

88. Only an inbred MORON would think Iran is going to

nuke Israel. Israel isn't fucking stupid enough to believe that a country with no nuclear weapons is going to attack with nuclear weapons. Israel is certainly warlike and may well attack if their masters in the Pentagon give them permission, but it won't be because they believe Iran is going to nuke "her".

As I said, only the knuckledraggingist inbred motherfuckers are stupid enough to believe such tripe. Wouldn't you agree?

[Sterling]

98. It seems obvious Israel wants to avoid a potential attack

by not letting the Iranians get the weapons in the first place. Iran is run in a large part by religious nuts who consistently give speeches threatening Israel and jews in general. They fund terrorism in Israel. Not to mention they execute gays. I can understand why the idea of giving Iran the option of nuking Israel is very unsettling to more than just Israel.

[oblivious]

111. Any evidence that Iranian leaders have threatened Jews in general?

I've never seen that.

[Sterling]

112. Hosting a "World without Zionism" conference

is a tip. I have seen all sorts of articles here. I have seen most news agencies report the threats and then I have seen some DUers find differing accounts of the same speech, claiming the rhetoric was not indeed as inflammatory as it seems on face value. I don't pretend to believe that Iranians have any love for Israel or the US. Since I was a child I have seen a constant flow of images from Iran of it's people chanting "death to America, Death to Israel". They invited David Duke to be a guest of honor at their recent anti semite worlds fair. Sorry this is not a society ready to handle that kind of responsibility. Hell I don't really think we are ready either, I sure as shit don't pretend that we are as irresponsible as Iran.

Are you arguing that Iran is not a danger to anyone? Are you arguing that in fact the Iranians do not hate Israel and the US and we should trust them to "do the right thing" if given the power of a nuke?

Here's some stuff to read:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/iranjews.html

Iran's official government-controlled media often issues anti-Semitic propaganda. A prime example is the government's publishing of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a notorious Czarist forgery, in 1994 and 1999.2 Jews also suffer varying degrees of officially sanctioned discrimination, particularly in the areas of employment, education, and public accommodations.3


http://www.adl.org/main_Anti_Semitism_International/ahmadinejad_words.htm


Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in his Own Words


Posted: December 12, 2006


Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's anti-Semitic and anti-Israel views place him and the Iranian regime among the foremost threats to Jews and the state of Israel.



Ahmadinejad repeatedly demonizes the state of Israel and openly calls for its destruction at every opportunity. Most notoriously, he described Israel as a "fake regime" that "must be wiped off the map."



He termed Zionists "the most detested people in all humanity" and called the extermination of six million Jews during World War II "a myth," claiming that Jews have played up Nazi atrocities during the Holocaust in a bid to extort sympathy for Israel from European governments.



Ahmadinejad's virulently anti-Israel and anti-Semitic rhetoric and Holocaust denial are often matched by other Iranian leaders, and the Iranian regime itself has continued to sponsor anti-Zionism conferences and pseudo-academic lectures and exhibits questioning the fact of the Holocaust.



The following is a selected compilation of Ahmadinejad's statements on Jews, the Holocaust and Israel in his own words:

December 12, 2006



“Thanks to people’s wishes and God’s will the trend for the existence of the Zionist regime is downwards and this is what God has promised and what all nations want…Just as the Soviet Union was wiped out and today does not exist, so will the Zionist regime soon be wiped out”

(Comments to Iran’s Holocaust Conference)

November 29, 2006



"What have the Zionists done for the American people that the US administration considers itself obliged to blindly support these infamous aggressors? Is it not because they have imposed themselves on a substantial portion of the banking, financial, cultural and media sectors?"

(Letter from Ahmadinejad "to the American people")


November 13, 2006

"Israel is destined for destruction and will soon disappear"
Israel is "a contradiction to nature, we foresee its rapid disappearance and destruction."

October 19, 2006

"The Zionist regime is counterfeit and illegitimate and cannot survive"
(as quoted by Iranian state television)

August 6, 2006



"They (Israel) kill women and children, young and old. And, behind closed doors, they make plans for the advancement of their evil goals."

(as quoted by Khorasan Provincial TV)

August 4, 2006



"A new Middle East will prevail without the existence of Israel."

(as quoted by Malaysian news agency Bernama website)



August 2, 2006



"Although the main solution is for the elimination of the Zionist regime, at this stage an immediate cease-fire must be implemented."

(as quoted by Iranian TV)



"Are they human beings?... They (Zionists) are a group of blood-thirsty savages putting all other criminals to shame."

(as quoted by Iranian TV)



July 27, 2006



"The occupying regime of Palestine has actually pushed the button of its own destruction by launching a new round of invasion and barbaric onslaught on Lebanon"

(as quoted by Islamic Republic News Agency via the Associated Press)




July 16, 2006

"The Zionists think that they are victims of Hitler, but they act like Hitler and behave worse than Genghis Khan."
(as quoted by the Iranian News Agency)

July 13, 2006

"The Zionists and their protectors are the most detested people in all of humanity, and the hatred is increasing every day."

"The worse their crimes, the quicker they will fall."

" has blackened the pages of history".
(as quoted by Iranian state television)

June 16, 2006

"I think we have sufficiently talked about this matter and these Holocaust events need to be further investigated by independent and impartial parties."

"An event that has influenced so many diplomatic and political equations of the world needs to investigated and researched by impartial and independent groups."

"If it is true, then the response to this question should not be solved in Palestine. The Palestinian question should be settled as soon as possible. If it is false, why should such measures be taken against the people of Palestine?"
(a news conference following a meeting with China's president)


May 28, 2006

"I believe the German people are prisoners of the Holocaust. More than 60 million were killed in World War II . . . The question is: Why is it that only the Jews are at the center of attention?"

"We say that if the Holocaust happened, then the Europeans must accept the consequences and the price should not be paid by Palestine. If it did not happen, then the Jews must return to where they came from."
(in an interview with Germany's Der Spiegel magazine)

May 11, 2006

Israel is "a regime based on evil that cannot continue and one day will vanish."
(to a student rally in Jakarta, Indonesia)



April 24, 2006

''We say that this fake regime (Israel) cannot not logically continue to live. Open the doors (of Europe) and let the Jews go back to their own countries."

(In a news conference held on April 24, 2006)



April 14, 2006

"The Zionist regime is an injustice and by its very nature a permanent threat. Whether you like it or not, the Zionist regime is heading toward annihilation. The Zionist regime is a rotten, dried tree that will be eliminated by one storm."

"If there is serious doubt over the Holocaust, there is no doubt over the catastrophe and holocaust being faced by the Palestinians. Holocaust has been continuing in Palestine over the past 60 years."
(In a speech at the opening of the "Support for the Palestinian Intifada" conference on April 14-16 hosted in Tehran)

February 23, 2006

"These heinous acts are committed by a group of Zionists and occupiers that have failed. They have failed in the face of Islam's logic and justice . . . They invade the shrine and bomb there because they oppose God and justice . . . But be sure, you will not be saved from the wrath and power of the justice-seeking nations by resorting to such acts."
(In a speech broadcast on state television, where Ahmadinejad suggested that the bombing of a major Shiite shrine in Iraq by Sunni insurgents was plotted by Israel and the U.S. to divide Muslims.)


January 5, 2006



"Hopefully, the news that the criminal of Sabra and Chatilla has joined his ancestors is final."

(To a group of Muslim clerics in the Iranian city of Qom, as quoted in the semi-official student news agency ISNA, in a reference to the illness of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon).



"o Muslim nation would put up with this entity in Islamic lands, not for one moment … If it's true that the committed a big crime in World War II, then they must take responsibility for it themselves, and not ask the Palestinian people to pay the price … Those countries that support this regime were terrified at the suggestion that should be relocated to their neighborhood. So why should the Palestinians and the countries in our region accept this entity?" (In a speech before an audience in the Iranian city of Qom, aired on television)

January 2, 2006



" killed two birds with one stone … weeping the Jews out of Europe and at the same time creating a European appendix with a Zionist and anti-Islamic nature in the heart of the Islamic world …Zionism is a Western ideology and a colonialist idea ... and right now it massacres Muslims with direct guidance and help from the United States and a part of Europe ... Zionism is basically a new fascism."
(In written answers to questions from the public reproduced in several Iranian newspapers)












December 14, 2005



"Today, they have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets … This is our proposal: give a part of your own land in Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to them so that the Jews can establish their country."
(Speaking to thousands of people in the Iranian city of Zahedan)



December 13, 2005



"If the killing of Jews in Europe is true and the Zionists are being supported because of this excuse, why should the Palestinian nation pay the price?"

(Comments published on Iranian state television's Web site)



December 8, 2005



"Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces.... Although we don't accept this claim, if we suppose it is true, our question for the Europeans is: Is the killing of innocent Jewish people by Hitler the reason for their support to the occupiers of Jerusalem? If the Europeans are honest they should give some of their provinces in Europe -- like in Germany, Austria or other countries -- to the Zionists and the Zionists can establish their state in Europe."

(While speaking to reporters at an Islamic summit in Mecca)



November 27, 2005



"You , who have used nuclear weapons against innocent people, who have used uranium ordnance in Iraq, should be tried as war criminals in courts."

(During a nationally televised ceremony of the establishment of Iran's volunteer Basij paramilitary)



October 29, 2005



"They think they are the absolute rulers of the world."

(Marching in a demonstration alongside a crowd of students in Tehran)



October 28, 2005



"They are cheeky humans, and they think that the entire world should obey them. They destroy Palestinian families and expect nobody to object to them."

(Defending his earlier comments)



October 26, 2005



"Israel must be wiped off the map … The establishment of a Zionist regime was a move by the world oppressor against the Islamic world . . . The skirmishes in the occupied land are part of the war of destiny. The outcome of hundreds of years of war will be defined in Palestinian land."

(In an address to 4,000 students at a program titled, 'The World Without Zionism')



June 19, 2005



"It is not just for a few states to sit and veto global approvals. Should such a privilege continue to exist, the Muslim world with a population of nearly 1.5 billion should be extended the same privilege."

(In an interview with state television shortly before his election)



June 8, 2005



The UN structure is one-sided, stacked against the world of Islam.

(In an interview on state television)


PS:
I have no idea why the last part of this is crossed out, sorry?

[oblivious]

122. There is nothing there threatening Jews in general. Nothing at all.

He has made it clear Jews and Zioninsts are the same thing.

At his September news conference at the UN:

AHMADINEJAD (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): No, I'm not anti-Jew. Jews are respected by everyone like all human beings. And I respect them very much.

Let us remember that in Palestine there are Muslims, Christians and Jews who live together. We speak of the Palestinian nation, of a people all in all embracing everyone. I never have said the Muslims in Palestine alone should decide about their fate.

They used to live freely together. But ever since the arrival of the British, with the imperialistic goals they had, and then the arrival of the Zionist system of thinking into that land, the problems were created.
So why not let the people there decide for themselves, and then let's see what happens? Let's give that a chance.

...

We love everyone around the world: Jews, Christians, Muslims, non-Muslims, non-Jews, non- Christians. We have no problem with people.

...These Zionists, I want to tell you, are not Jews. That's the biggest deception we've ever faced.

Zionists are Zionists, period. They are not Jews, they are not Christians, and they are not Muslims. They are a power group, a power party. And we oppose oppression and the aggression that any party that seeks pure power, raw power goes after.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/21/AR2006092100829.html

[Sterling]

97. Sure, out of context, but never mind the "context"

of the "world without Zionism" conference hosted in Iran and featuring the greatest of the great in Jew hate mongers. David Duke was the guest of honor from the US Confederacy.

Why are people going out of their way to pretend Iran does not have an official anti semite Government. Not to mention anti gay etc.. And when I say "anti" I mean the eliminate the problem. It's one thing to hate war and want to avoid all wars, it's another to work so hard to deny the reality of a counties policies and the potential thread posed by a potential enemy.

Over the last few years most of us have figured out our government has some serious problems, problems we need to deal with head on. Many of us however have somehow managed to not notice that other countries have problems as well. I don't idealize the Iranian government the way many here have decided to do for some strange reason. I don't see a reason to cut them any more slack than I am prepared to offer our own disappointing leadership.

[Rhiannon12866]

109. I read his speech and I agree with you. n/t

[sg_]

70. I thought Iraq was a sovereign nation...

why would they need permission from the Pentagon to fly over Iraq?...oh yea :sarcasm:

[yellowcanine]

76. That is a "quaint" concept. Countries get to decide what happens in their own country

without input from the U.S. What a quaint concept.

[JerseygirlCT]

78. Gee, why would they need permission from the Pentagon?

I thought Iraq had a democratically elected government now?

[entanglement]

82. Belligerence and threats of criminal aggression from Israel - nothing new to see here

n/t

[talkinghead]

83. "so, likewise,

a passionate attachment of one Nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest, in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and Wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification." George Washington

[Billy Jacks Blog]

89. Iraq would not be the only airspace they would violate,

they would also have to fly over part of Jordan. The result is, such a tactic is extremely unlikely. Asking and gaining permission from those two entities would completely spoil the surprise attack. If Israel does this, they are more likely to fly over the Indian Ocean where they would violate no one's airspace.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

103. it wouldn't be much of a surprise

[Billy Jacks Blog]

104. There would be no surprise

in the attack itself. However, the relative time of the attack would be revealed so that Iran would know approximately when Israel was coming.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

105. what would it attack

since Iran is a long way off from a nuclear weapon. What does it have that would harm Israel, long range missiles? Or is it going to take out terrorist group HQs mbased in Iran. Does Israel know something that we don't?

[Sterling]

90. I don't see this happening. Bad idea even if you think attacking Iran

is a good idea. The Israelis have no capability we do not have to do the job. In fact it is far more complicated operationally for a number of reasons for the Israelis to attack instead of the USAF. It would cause even greater strain than a US attack would. I don't really see what this stuff is all about?

[Nihil]

99. This stuff cracks me up!

If the Israeli government has planned, approved and ordered a bombing
raid (nuclear or conventional) against a non-neighbouring sovereign
nation, do you really think they would give a shit about the niceties
of flight corridor permissions?

Hello people?

This is discussing an act of "pre-emptive" war? (i.e., unprovoked,
naked aggression) Diplomacy is obviously no longer an option.

"Please Mr Jordanian Diplomat, we are about to bomb the shit out of
civilian structures in a country beyond yours but, although it might
well lead to WW III, we really don't want to offend anyone so can we
fly over your homeland for ~15 minutes?"

:rofl:

[confludemocrat]

101. In last part he's basically saying "we will fight the U.S. to be able to fight Iran"

and some people still dare to claim that the middle east problems are not related to Israels priorities and the U.S.'s servitude to those priorities above all else (including our own best interests)

[Megahurtz]

106. Oh FUCK!!!

:nuke:

[dogfacedboy]

117. Off Topic:

I like beer when I'm in doubt, too.

[Megahurtz]

123. I like it pretty much all the time.

:7

(Well actually, only in the evening)

[noonwitch]

114. It depends on how good their intelligence is

If they can bomb only military sites and take out the whole nuke development program, it's a good idea. But if they either can't take the whole thing out at once, or can't do it without massive civilian casualties, then it's just going to backfire.

[razors edge]

126. Even if they could

take down the SAMs with HARMs and then destroy Busherer and a hundred other little sites that support it all, without Iran getting off a single missile, it will still backfire, here in the US when gas hits 7/gal, support for Israel will evaporate like drop of acetone on a hot griddle.

[dogfacedboy]

115. I say Israel will be attacking at the REQUEST of the US.

This way Bush gets his war on without throwing the first punch. Israel attacks, Iran retaliates, the US comes into it "in defense of Israel."

This will be the start of Dubya Dubya 3.

[Bo]

116. Iran has said Israel should not exist...

what exactly were you expecting Israel to do?

[dogfacedboy]

118. Saying they should not exist is just Madmans' line o'crap. n/t

[LeftishBrit]

127. I think it's mostly political posturing

I think Bush would just love to egg the Israelis on to start a war with Iran (and then it wouldn't be HIM who did it). But while I don't credit the current Israeli government with much wisdom, common-sense or devotion to peace, I think that even they wouldn't be QUITE this stupid at this stage as it would rebound terribly on all Middle Eastern countries, including Israel. At least, I hope they wouldn't be this stupid. Olmert's IQ is almost as low as Bush's.

Ahmadinejad is a revolting character, but invading another country just because they might conceivably one day develop some weapons is an evil policy. As the Iraq war has proven, if any proof was needed.

This is one of the many times when I wish that America, and therefore the world, was not currently led by people like Bush and Cheney who delight in setting fires near powder-kegs.