Americans underestimate Iraqi death toll (Poll)

[maddezmom]

WASHINGTON - Americans are keenly aware of how many U.S. forces have lost their lives in Iraq, according to a new AP-Ipsos poll. But they woefully underestimate the number of Iraqi civilians who have been killed.

When the poll was conducted earlier this month, a little more than 3,100 U.S. troops had been killed. The midpoint estimate among those polled was right on target, at about 3,000.

Far from a vague statistic, the death toll is painfully real for many Americans. Seventeen percent in the poll know someone who has been killed or wounded in Iraq. And among adults under 35, those closest to the ages of those deployed, 27 percent know someone who has been killed or wounded.
~snip~

The number of Iraqis killed, however, is much harder to pin down, and that uncertainty is perhaps reflected in Americans' tendency to lowball the Iraqi death toll by tens of thousands.

Iraqi civilian deaths are estimated at more than 54,000 and could be much higher; some unofficial estimates range into the hundreds of thousands. The U.N. Assistance Mission for Iraq reports more than 34,000 deaths in 2006 alone.

Among those polled for the AP survey, however, the median estimate of Iraqi deaths was 9,890. The median is the point at which half the estimates were higher and half lower.


more:http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070224/ap_on_re_us/death_in_iraq_ap_poll

[Erika]

1. And the Iraqis never did anything to us

I'm just grateful I'm not a bushbot or his enabler. How they can answer to their conscience is beyond me for the tragedy they allowed in Iraq.

[Judi Lynn]

2. They knew, not long after Bush's invasion, that it was going to be bad.

That's why someone persuaded the Iraqi government to announce right near the beginning, that they simply weren't going to be keeping a record of the deaths of Iraqis.

Seems impossible to believe, but we read it long, long ago. It's been discussed occassionally at D.U. since then.

They've been through hell every moment since _Bush lied us into that war.

[Erika]

3. Iraqi innocents deaths would not be counted

No wonder we no longer are respected by other countries. I'm so sad.

[UpInArms]

5. US General Tommy Franks: "we don't do body counts"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3672298.stm

Monday, 6 June, 2005, 16:35 GMT 17:35 UK

Thousands of Iraqi civilians have also died as a result of conflict and its bloody aftermath - but officially, no one has any idea how many.

Human rights groups say the occupying powers have failed in their duty to catalogue the deaths, giving the impression that ordinary Iraqis' lives are worth less than those of soldiers.

Unofficial estimates of the civilian toll vary wildly, from at least 10,000 to about 100,000.

<snip>

Iraq Body Count

The UK-based Iraq Body Count - run on a shoestring by about 20 academics and peace activists - is one of the most widely-quoted sources of information on the civilian toll.

It says 22-25,000 ordinary Iraqis have died since the invasion in March 2003 - figures compiled from media reports of thousands of incidents.

...more...

[rodeodance]

6. I remember that VERY clearly!

[carla]

27. The willful ignorance

of the American public is nothing new. Perhaps this story will help focus Americans on the costs of war.

[leftchick]

4. the AP reporter does not do her job again. At LEAST 655,000 DEAD IRAQIS!

people who would still be on this earth if the US had not invaded their country...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6040054.stm


An estimated 655,000 Iraqis have died since 2003 who might still be alive but for the US-led invasion, according to a survey by a US university.
The research compares mortality rates before and after the invasion from 47 randomly chosen areas in Iraq.

The figure is considerably higher than estimates by official sources or the number of deaths reported in the media.

It is vigorously disputed by supporters of the war in Iraq, including US President George W Bush.

Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health estimate that the mortality rates have more than doubled since the invasion to overthrow Saddam Hussein, causing an average of 500 deaths a day.

<snip>

In the past, Mr Bush has put the civilian death toll in Iraq at 30,000, and hours after details of the latest research were published he dismissed the researchers' methodology as "pretty well discredited".

The Johns Hopkins researchers argue their "cluster sample" approach is more reliable than counting dead bodies, given the obstacles preventing more comprehensive fieldwork in the violent and insecure conditions of Iraq.

"I stand by the figure that a lot of innocent people have lost their life... and that troubles me, and it grieves me," Mr Bush told reporters at the White House.

[rodeodance]

7. this article got a week or two of attention, then it faded.

[DuaneBidoux]

8. We underestimate who?

[Mnemosyne]

9. Orwell Rolls in His Grave...

"People in democracies generally don't shy away from inflicting civilian casualties, he said, and they may be even more tolerant of them in situations such as Iraq, where many of the civilian deaths are caused by other Iraqis."

TOLERANT, of other people's deaths and despair!

How wonderfully civil of them. :wtf:

I watched "Orwell Rolls in His Grave" last night and "The Corporation" several weeks ago. I highly recommend viewing both films. The truth will never be known of exactly how many Iraqi' people end up dead for lies and corporate profits, and the true American toll will never be known either, imo.

I am sickened that most Americans would choose to live in ignorance of the death and devastation our government has caused and continues to cause world-wide, not just in Iraq/Afghanistan. I am further sickened by the fact that many are using the excuse that it's mostly Iraqi's killing Iraqi's!

General Frankie boy said near the beginning of this massacre: "We don't do body counts." and I believe this is one of the reasons most do not know the truer numbers. Of course, we know how much more valuable the American lives are than the Iraqi's, so it's no wonder most haven't a clue as to the more stunning numbers of the Iraqi death toll. It eases the conscience of the "average" American. The Iraqi death toll ( as best can be figured) should be included in any report listing the American death toll, imo.

And just wait for the future devastation caused by our use of depleted uranium! It couldn't care less if you are an American or an Iraqi. :grr:

[Mnemosyne]

10. Americans Underestimate Iraqi Death Toll

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/D/DEATH_IN_IRAQ_AP_POLL?SITE=ILEDW&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

(bold mine)

Feb 24, 12:02 PM EST

By NANCY BENAC
Associated Press Writer

Americans Underestimate Iraqi Death Toll

snip>

Among those polled for the AP survey, however, the median estimate of Iraqi deaths was 9,890. The median is the point at which half the estimates were higher and half lower.

Christopher Gelpi, a Duke University political scientist who tracks public opinion on war casualties, said a better understanding of the Iraqi death toll probably wouldn't change already negative public attitudes toward the war much. People in democracies generally don't shy away from inflicting civilian casualties, he said, and they may be even more tolerant of them in situations such as Iraq, where many of the civilian deaths are caused by other Iraqis.

"You have to look at who's doing the killing,"

said Neal Crawford, a restaurant manager in Suttons Bay, Mich., who guessed that about 10,000 Iraqis had been killed. "If these people are dying because a roadside bomb goes off or if there's an insurgent attack in a marketplace, it's an unfortunate circumstance of war - people die."

Gelpi said that while Americans

may not view Iraqi deaths through the same prism as American losses, they may use the Iraqi death toll to gauge progress, or lack thereof,

on the U.S. effort to promote a stable, secure democracy in Iraq.

snip>

"People in democracies generally don't shy away from inflicting civilian casualties, he said, and they may be even more tolerant of them in situations such as Iraq, where many of the civilian deaths are caused by other Iraqis."

TOLERANT, of other people's deaths and despair!

How wonderfully civil of them. :wtf:

I watched "Orwell Rolls in His Grave" last night and "The Corporation" several weeks ago. The truth will never be known of exactly how many Iraqi' people end up dead for lies and corporate profits, and the true American toll will never be known either, imo.

I am sickened that most Americans would choose to live in ignorance of the death and devastation our government has caused and continues to cause world-wide, not just in Iraq/Afghanistan. I am further sickened by the fact that many are using the excuse that it's mostly Iraqi's killing Iraqi's!

General Frankie boy said near the beginning of this massacre: "We don't do body counts." and I believe this is one of the reasons most do not know the truer numbers. Of course, we know how much more valuable the American lives are than the Iraqi's, so it's no wonder most haven't a clue as to the more stunning numbers of the Iraqi death toll. It eases the conscience of the "average" American. The Iraqi death toll ( as best can be figured) should be included in any report listing the American death toll.

And just wait for the future devastation caused by our use of depleted uranium! It couldn't care less if you are an American or an Iraqi. :grr:

[liberal N proud]

11. The part that got me was "people die"

What the hell is wrong with people they can just dismiss human life so easily?

[Monkeyman]

12. Don't know but it shakes you up don't it

[Mnemosyne]

16. It rips at my heart and soul each day, MM.

:cry:

:hug:

[fooj]

19. Me, too.

:cry:

It's hard to not be overwhelmed with the shame and the sadness. How will these people ever forgive us? :cry:

[Mnemosyne]

20. Unless we impeach, indict and

imprison these monsters fooj, I don't believe they ever will. And they shouldn't either. :cry::hug:

How's things with you fooj? Eyes doing well?:hi:

Please check your pm's.

[pat_k]

24. Once upon a time, others could appeal to the good will of the American people. . .

. . .to intervene in such horrors -- even those of our own making.

We didn't always heed the calls for help, but the hope that your calls will be heard is a force that should never be allowed to die.

When we allowed ourselves to be taken out of the loop on January 6th, 2001, the hope of appealing to us died. Then even worse, Bush's America became the perpetrator of horror. Overwhelming. Unfathomable horror.

vickiss, you are right. Whether or not the victims can ever again see the United States as a possible force for good, we will only have the potential to be a force for good if we take back the reigns of power and put the good will of the American people back in the loop.

And the ONLY way to do that is to impeach Bush and Cheney.

True redemption demands more -- retribution and justice for Bush, Cheney, and their co-conspirators through our system of justice, both national and international. But Impeachment is the first, absolutely essential step. There is no way around it. No matter how long it takes. Even if it's an "in absentia" impeachment after Bush and Cheney pack it in 2008.

The Constitution has been in breach from the day that Congress failed to reject the illegitimate Florida electors, but we have the power to enforce the terms. The fascists can never take our sovereignty from us. No one can do that. It is ours. We just need to remember that and assert our power.

Doing what I can to see that happen is the only thing that keeps me from falling into helpless despair in the face the inhumanity, chaos, and death, not just in the Middle East, but in our own cities. (Few Americans know how many have been murdered in the civil wars between rival gangs. Few know how many have died from neglect and inadequate medical care. Why would a person who believes they are powerless to change anything want to confront the stark truths? It all comes back to our belief in our own power. In that force there is hope.)

It is grief more than shame that I feel. Grief for the victims. Grief that so many of us allowed ourselves to be convinced that we are powerless, opted out, and opened the way for a fascist faction to take the reigns. Grief that so many of us were fooled into believing that "legal technicality" and cynical misuse of the courts could trump the reality that more Floridians went to the polls intending to vote for Gore in 2000. A reality that the Bush camp didn't even bother to deny.

And finally, grief that our so-called "leaders" are still so trapped in their bizzaro beltway world that they seem to be deaf to us, and blind to tne duty we have charged them with. They are just people. I am confident that they can be reached. But the hope doesn't cancel out the grief for their current and past failures.

[scavenger]

21. The sad fact

Even though you don't agree with it and openly condemn it. You still feed it just as I do. We have to work and pay taxes, that buy the bullets and bombs that feed the death and misery that you see here.

I mean no disrespect to anyone posting here, but I myself feel like I'm a scavenger by being a paying part of this shameful history.

[Mnemosyne]

13. Sickening, isn't it. It is far too easy for many to dismiss

deaths that do not affect them directly. I've heard the idiots that say: "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out." ARGH!!!

As much as I hate it, we may need a draft to end this since no one in Congress seems to want impeachment on the table.:crazy:

[muriel_volestrangler]

14. Way underestimating

possibly by a factor of 70. The article says

Iraqi civilian deaths are estimated at more than 54,000 and could be much higher; some unofficial estimates range into the hundreds of thousands. The U.N. Assistance Mission for Iraq reports more than 34,000 deaths in 2006 alone.

but 54,000 is the lowest estimate by anybody. Those 'unofficial' estimates are scientific ones, by American academics, in a peer-reviewed journal - at about 650,000 several months ago, so probably 700,000 by now.

I wonder what the public felling would be if they knew the higher figures - even if they just accepted the 'official' ones somewhere a bit below 100,000.

[Mnemosyne]

17. The AP is another whore for the WH. Keep the numbers low!

:hi:

I actually had a thread pulled last year for daring to suggest any number higher than the official low-ball one. Dahr Jamal has been saying it is higher all along.

I'm changing my road sign to the Iraqi death toll as soon as I can get to it through the snow, really deep here!

[Briar]

15. This is what persistent misreporting does

Everytime a realistic estimate of the deaths is made, the "fair and balanced" media give equal time to gross underestimates issued by the US, UK and Iraqi goverments. For some unfathomable reason, people tend to believe their governments (despite massive evidence proving they lie through their teeth on a daily basis) before they believe such liberal flakes as, say, experienced academics writing in learned journals.

Here's another nice twist:



"Women were more likely than men to feel worried, compassionate, angry and tired; men were more likely than women to feel proud, a finding consistent with traditional differences in attitudes toward war between the sexes.

"For women, said Gelpi, “there is an emotional response to casualties that men don’t show. ... It could be some sort of socialization that men get about the military or combat as being honorable that women don’t get.”

In which case, thank goodness I never received such brutalising socialisation.

[Mnemosyne]

18. "proud", makes me want to

:puke:

I know no man that is "proud" of the death toll and if they are, they should thank their god that they don't know me.

[kiwilover]

22. Racists

Americans don't care it's just a bunch of ragheads. In vietnam we had Blacks for cannon fodder. In Iraq we have hispanics for cannon fodder. How sweet it must be to the racists Americans having our brown people kill their brown people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bigmack]

23. Who gets the blame?

About three months ago, someone walked up to our small group that was holding a vigil/protest. He wasn't ranting, but he wanted to know if we thought Iraq was better off without Saddam.

I asked him if he believed in some kind of judgement beyond this life. He said yes. I asked if he thought Saddam will have to pay, at that judgement, for all the lives he destroyed while in power. He said yes.

I then asked him who was going to pay, at that last judgement, for the lives destroyed in this war... not even counting the people killed by the car bombers and the crazoids, but just the innocents killed by the "Coalition". This was, after all, a war of choice, since Saddam presented no direct threat to the US, or really anybody outside his own country.

He said... after a long pause... that those deaths are on Saddam, too.

At least he didn't say it was Clinton's fault.

I don't believe in any such judgement, but I'm amazed at the mental gymnastics that seemingly religious people go through to justify the murder of innocents.

[enki23]

25. did they throw the absurd answers?

i mean, the *really* absurd answers, of course. the median guess is absurdly low enough, but i wonder if it isn't because all the dutiful republic fucks deliberately lowball (waaaaaay lowball) in order to contribute to the propaganda effort.

nevermind. wouldn't affect the median. any lowball, even a pretend rational one, would have the same effect. what we're talking about here is deliberate mass delusion. freeping isn't necessary. that, and of course this is the "christian conservative" crowd we're talking about. they have long practice in claiming factual knowledge of asinine absurdities.

[Unvanguard]

26. Of course. The media has ignored them. n/t

[AliceWonderland]

28. This has always disturbed me -- valuing some human life over other human life only compounds

the problem. We can continue these policies because Iraqis (or insert other group here) are less human than "us".