Chavez beefing up military; Soaring arms spending surpasses that of Iran, Pakistan

[Doondoo]

Venezuela's arms spending has climbed to more than $4 billion (U.S.) over the past two years, transforming the nation into Latin America's largest weapons buyer and placing it ahead of other major purchasers in international arms markets like Pakistan and Iran.

Venezuelan military and government officials say the arms acquisitions – which include dozens of fighter jets and attack helicopters, and 100,000 Kalashnikov assault rifles – are needed to circumvent a U.S. ban on sales of American weapons to the country.

They also argue that Venezuela must strengthen its defences to counter potential military aggression from the United States.

"The United States has tried to paralyze our air power," Gen. Alberto Muller Rojas, a member of President Hugo Chavez's general staff, said in an interview, citing a recent effort by the Bush administration to prevent Venezuela from acquiring replacement parts for American F-16s bought in the 1980s.

"We are feeling threatened and, like any sovereign nation, we are taking steps to strengthen our territorial defence."


http://www.thestar.com/News/article/185481

[Robbien]

1. Well, duh!

Only a stupid leader would sit there defenseless. The question of a US attack is not if but when.

[INDIA]

12. Really? "when"??

Come on now. I would bet my house that the United States will never attack Venezuela. I find that absurd. I saw a segment on CNN of a dirt-poor, brain-washed Venezuelan man preparing his slum for an "impending" attack by US Marines. He was pointing out places where they could rain down hot oil and rocks on the Marines in some of the slum's alleyways. I believe he was in charge of some sort of rag-tag civilian militia that Chavez enacted. It was the saddest thing I have ever seen. Anything to distract from the rampant poverty I guess.

Bush is to Terror like Chavez is to the US. They both need boogeymen to keep their power and support. It's pathetic.

Now financially backing a opposing political movement/coup? Maybe, but all of his defense spending won't do anything against that.

[Robbien]

37. Funny

Usually FauxNews or the Christian Broadcasting Network are the ones that push that overused dirt poor Venezuelian as the typical Chavez militia. Those so called news sources also push the idea that Chavez needs Bush as a boogyman. They keep telling their audiences that there is no way would Chavez be able to keep power otherwise.

I see their propaganda works on some people.

[INDIA]

38. I saw it with my own two eyes...

On CNN. Not Fox News, not Christian Broadwhatever network. Nice try though. I have a different opinion than you so I must have been brainwashed by the EVIL Propaganda! BOOGA BOOGA! Which way to the brown shirt store?

[Robbien]

44. Of course

you have a different view than I do. You go around shouting booga booga and have such a poor opinion of Latin America. Oh yeah, that's right, you saw it with your own two eyes. On tv no less.

[INDIA]

45. You know what, You're Right!

I've changed my opinion and now I completely agree with you!!!1111 the Evil Amerikan Empire will be invading Venezuela any day now! Prepare the barricades! Viva Hugo and his revolucion!

Chavez's strongest base of power comes from the countries poorest, least educated, aka gullible masses. Every week, or even every couple of days another barb or insult to Bushco and the US comes out of Chavez's mouth, and I admit they are amusing, but at what point is it overkill? At what point does it become propaganda? I watched a lengthy segment on CNN detailing what poor Venezuelans, (like the aforementioned militia leader), truly believe is happening between the US and Venezuela. It's just not reality. They really believe that there is an impending invasion on the way from the evil Americans. It's just sad. That doesn't unsettle you? Even a little bit? Faux's "propaganda" is nothing compared to the bullshit that is spewed from Chavez's cake hole.

And all the while he is lining his pockets with American oil money, to buy new weapons. Great horse you picked there.

Oh gee, but I saw it on TV, so it must be the evil Karl Rove controlled corporate media spreading propaganda? Get a grip man.

[Judi Lynn]

46. Poorest, least educated people depend upon cable news to inform them.

Meanwhile, in Venezuela, the poor people who have been completely shut out of any chance for education, any kind of medical treatment, safe housing, even electricity in many cases, are moving through a transformation in their daily lives. If you developed a research habit, you'd know this.

DU'ers don't take CNN too seriously and god forbid anyone is lame enough to use something like that as his/her news resource.

[INDIA]

54. I only watch CNN, nothing else!

I don't read books, newspapers, nor do I ever go on the internet. I AM SO "LAME!!!!"

You are soooooooooo much cooler than me, and obviously, you have a LOT more free time.

:rofl:

I never knew there was such thing as a media snob. "Ugh, you get your news from CNN? How dreadful. BTW, do you have any Grey Poupon"? I'm a law student, I don't have endless hours a day to look up and post obscure news links that you deem trustworthy, but I do pay attention to current events and world politics, and I feel that I, along with my elected officials in congress, have a pretty good grip on the situation. You'd be hard pressed to find any Dems in congress who have the same warm feelings toward Chavez that you seem to.

Regardless of the source,(Because everyone knows Ted Turner is a Bushbot Repuke :eyes: ), People like the aforementioned militia leader exist, they are poor, they are uneducated, and they are brainwashed by Chavez's bullshit into thinking that there is some sort of impending American invasion. It's absurd, it's sad, and it's defended by people like you.

Or you can just pull the wool over your eyes and yell, "Propaganda! The media lies! It's all a lie."

[depakid]

56. Ted Turner has nothing to do with CNN management

or its senior news editors. Hasn't for a very long time.

Quite frankly, when you cite CNN, you lose all credibility for views that may otherwise have some degree of merit. It's sort of like citing the Washington Post to back up assertions about the Plame case.

[Judi Lynn]

64. Concerning your claim Congress all supports Bush's excesses toward Chavez,

you apparently didn't catch it on CNN that many Democratic Congressmen, governors, mayors over the last couple of years, after being blown off by American oil companies, when they begged them for discounted oil prices for their poorer areas, went to Venezuela and secured 40% discounted oil for winter heating for their most vulnerable citizens.

It has been in all the papers, however.

In addition to a bunch of states, add 116 Native American tribes which secured the same arrangements.

An article from today's Houston Chronicle:

Feb. 23, 2007, 2:22PM
Jackson Lee tries to smooth Chavez ties
Her Venezuela trip, she says, was an attempt to protect jobs here

By JOHN OTIS
Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle South America Bureau

BOGOTA, COLOMBIA — Breaking with Bush administration policy, Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee of Houston ventured to Venezuela to campaign for a thaw in relations with leftist President Hugo Chavez.

"We've made a serious mistake in not engaging with President Chavez," the Democratic lawmaker said Thursday in a telephone interview from Houston, a few hours after returning from a three-day trip to Caracas, the capital. "I came to break the tension, to warm up a chilled relationship."

The visit by Jackson Lee, a member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, which paid for the trip, was the first by a member of the U.S. Congress since the Democrats took control of the House and Senate and since Chavez won re-election. It also came in the wake of announcements by Chavez to move Venezuela toward what he calls "21st century socialism" — including plans by his government to take a majority stake of U.S.-run oil operations in the country.

"Houston jobs are directly related to our relationship with Venezuela," Jackson Lee said. "I don't want to give up on this very important regional partner."
(snip)

Jackson Lee pressed the same point at a news conference Wednesday at the U.S. Embassy in Caracas, saying, "Venezuela has many friends in this new Congress."
(snip/...)

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/politics/4575155.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm looking for your next move to be an attack on Congresswoman Shiela Jackson Lee.

By the way, considering your youth as a law student, you sound remarkably like the old embittered posters who have visited long enough to toss around insults at Democratic posters implying they are "fond" of various leaders hated by the American right-wing reactionaries.

[Robbien]

50. You changed nothing

You still believe Venezuelia is full of poor uneducated idiots lead by a poor uneducated idiot.

And about your outrage statement "Chavez lining his pockets with American money", thanks for the laugh. There are plenty of buyers for Venezuelian oil. The US needs Venezuelia much more than they need us.

[krispos42]

52. He's better than the damn Saudis

At least he's not buying billion-dollar yachts and spending six months a year on the French Riviera, swilling wine and banging underwear models.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_yachts_by_length

[INDIA]

55. Pretty much EVERYONE...

is better than the Saudi Monarchy.

[rman]

173. And yet, Saudi Arabia is a US ally

In supporting Saudi Arabia the US government is supporting a dictatorship that has as a state religion the kind of radical Islam (Wahhabism) that creates terrorism.

[INDIA]

181. You're exactly right. n/t

[EFerrari]

81. If his base is illiterate, why did his government put in literacy programs

so people could read their own constitution?

Maybe you're watching the wrong channel? And maybe you need to find some respect for the people of Venezuela.

[CRH]

179. I saw the toppling of Saddam's statue, ...

broadcast on every network in the USA, to illustrate the fall of Baghdad, and I guess the 'open arms and flowers' propaganda.

Shown over and over again, the jubilant liberated Iraqis; with help of self editing camera lens distorting the real context.

And then there was saving and selling Pvt Lynch ...

And then there was our fearless President with a plastic turkey, ...

And then the tail hook, we 'kicked their ass' and liberated the Iraqis, party

All brought to us by CNN, Fox, NBC, ABC, CBS, ...

[IsItJustMe]

59. Spot on money, I was thinking the exact same thing when I read the post.

[ohio2007]

41. not a bad post.

Coming from a StilR ( steeler )fan and all ! ;)


I do agree about that need for a boogyeman. We've got em in Iran,Iraq,Sudan,South America...it never ends.
well...* will be gone in due time. but the other boogeyman story teller?
the next admin inherits him and his fears.

[Judi Lynn]

51. Didn't seem Clinton had problems with Chavez, if you could remember.

From Greg Palast:

While in control of the OPEC secretariat, Chavez cut a deal with our maximum leader of the time, Bill Clinton, on the price of oil. It was a ‘Goldilocks’ plan. The price would not be too low, not too high; just right, kept between $20 and $30 a barrel.
(snip)

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0816-03.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Things didn't get ugly until _Bush started threatening Chavez, and initiated destabilization programs, a coup, oil strike, etc., etc., even flying the main operators to meet with State Department officials.

DU'ers keep up on these things.

[TomClash]

69. When?

Let's try 2002 when the US "tacitly approved" (according to today's
NYT) a coup against Chavez, who was elected by the people in freer and fairer elections than any US Presidential election in this decade.

[Dave From Canada]

76. You're 100% correct.

It seems as though Chavez is taking a page out of Bush's book of fear. Keep 'em scared and distracted.

[pokercat999]

91. IMO you're correct in your analysis. The real threat

is from the CIA. Chavez would be better served by the billions of $$ by pouring it into ending poverty in his country. A happy population that loves its' leader (and a strong personal guard staff) would do more to insure the countries and his safety than all the F-16's in South America.

[Judi Lynn]

93. It's not as if the information you lack isn't there. DU'ers have been reading

what they needed to find out for a long time about where Venezuela is going in advancing the interests and wellbeing of the poor.

You could do yourself some good to take time out, as the rest of us MUST in order to find out for ourselves. That opportunity is as accessible to you as it is to us, and our time is valuable, as well. We don't spend it foolishly spewing disinformation or general ignorance, however.

~snip~Something amazing has been taking place in Latin America in recent years that deserves wider attention than the continent has been accustomed to attract. The chrysalis of the Venezuelan revolution led by Chávez, often attacked and derided as the incoherent vision of an authoritarian leader, has finally emerged as a resplendent butterfly whose image and example will radiate for decades to come.

Most of the reports about this revolution over the past six years, at home and abroad, have been uniquely hostile, heavily influenced by politicians and journalists associated with the opposition. It is as if news of the French or the Russian revolutions had been supplied solely by the courtiers of the king and the tsar. These criticisms have been echoed by senior US figures, from the president downwards, creating a negative framework within which the revolution has inevitably been viewed. At best, Chávez is seen as outdated and populist. At worst, he is considered a military dictator in the making.

Yet the wheel of history rolls on, and the atmosphere in Venezuela has changed dramatically since last year when Chávez won yet another overwhelming victory at the polls. The once triumphalist opposition has retired bruised to its tent, wounded perhaps mortally by the outcome of the referendum on Chávez's presidency that it called for and then resoundingly lost. The viciously hostile media has calmed down, and those who don't like Chávez have abandoned their hopes of his immediate overthrow. No one is any doubt that he will win next year's presidential election.
The Chávez government, for its part, has forged ahead with various spectacular social projects, assisted by the huge jump in oil prices, from $10 to $50 a barrel over the past six years. Instead of gushing into the coffers of the already wealthy, the oil pipelines have been picked up and directed into the shanty towns, funding health, education and cheap food. Foreign leaders from Spain and Brazil, Chile and Cuba, have come on pilgrimage to Caracas to establish links with the man now perceived as the leader of new emerging forces in Latin America, with popularity ratings to match. This extensive external support has stymied the plans of the US government to rally the countries of Latin America against Venezuela. They are not listening, and Washington is left without a policy.
(snip/…)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1495260,00.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Venezuela's president is using oil revenues to liberate the poor - no wonder his enemies want to overthrow him

John Pilger
Saturday May 13, 2006
The Guardian

I have spent the past three weeks filming in the hillside barrios of Caracas, in streets and breeze-block houses that defy gravity and torrential rain and emerge at night like fireflies in the fog. Caracas is said to be one of the world's toughest cities, yet I have known no fear; the poorest have welcomed my colleagues and me with a warmth characteristic of ordinary Venezuelans but also with the unmistakable confidence of a people who know that change is possible and who, in their everyday lives, are reclaiming noble concepts long emptied of their meaning in the west: "reform", "popular democracy", "equity", "social justice" and, yes, "freedom".

The other night, in a room bare except for a single fluorescent tube, I heard these words spoken by the likes of Ana Lucia Fernandez, aged 86, Celedonia Oviedo, aged 74, and Mavis Mendez, aged 95. A mere 33-year-old, Sonia Alvarez, had come with her two young children. Until about a year ago, none of them could read and write; now they are studying mathematics. For the first time in its modern era, Venezuela has almost 100% literacy.
This achievement is due to a national programme, called Mision Robinson, designed for adults and teenagers previously denied an education because of poverty. Mision Ribas is giving everyone a secondary school education, called a bachillerato. (The names Robinson and Ribas refer to Venezuelan independence leaders from the 19th century.) Named, like much else here, after the great liberator Simon Bolivar, "Bolivarian", or people's, universities have opened, introducing, as one parent told me, "treasures of the mind, history and music and art, we barely knew existed". Under Hugo Chávez, Venezuela is the first major oil producer to use its oil revenue to liberate the poor.
Mavis Mendez has seen, in her 95 years, a parade of governments preside over the theft of tens of billions of dollars in oil spoils, much of it flown to Miami, together with the steepest descent into poverty ever known in Latin America; from 18% in 1980 to 65% in 1995, three years before Chávez was elected. "We didn't matter in a human sense," she said. "We lived and died without real education and running water, and food we couldn't afford. When we fell ill, the weakest died. In the east of the city, where the mansions are, we were invisible, or we were feared. Now I can read and write my name, and so much more; and whatever the rich and their media say, we have planted the seeds of true democracy, and I am full of joy that I have lived to witness it."
(snip/…)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1773908,00.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Venezuela's Chavez Wins Hearts Among the Poor
By Michelle García
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, February 4, 2006; Page A12

CARACAS, Venezuela -- The shanties came tumbling down, wiping out the families who had built their homes on the hill. Carlos Henriquez, then a young boy, vividly remembers the images of the deadly mudslides and the feeling that the government had failed to protect the poor.

In the years that followed, there were more examples of official indifference, said Henriquez, now 22, who has a slight build and a boyish face. Young men fell behind in school, became apathetic and entered shadowy careers on the street. And he felt the government did not seem to care.

But recently, under what President Hugo Chavez calls his "Bolivarian Revolution," named for the 19th-century independence leader Simon Bolivar, the Venezuelan government has offered high school and university educations to adults left behind.

"Now those neighborhoods are stabilizing. This revolution is putting some enthusiasm in the people," said Henriquez, the son of an artist, who peddles revolutionary posters on the sidewalks of the capital. "Before, they didn't have any hope."

He plans to follow in his brother's footsteps and attend Mision Ribas, a high school for adults. "People are looking for ways to advance and keep going," he said while standing near his poster display. "The people were waiting for that, and it has arrived."
(snip/…)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/03/AR2006020302905.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PANDERING TO THE POOR
By Ted Rall | Apr 4, 2006

The Danger of Hugo Chávez's Successful Socialism
NEW YORK--When the hated despots of nations like Saudi Arabia and Kazakhstan loot their countries' treasuries, transfer their oil wealth to personal Swiss bank accounts and use the rest to finance (in the House of Saud's case) terrorist extremists, American politicians praise them as trusted friends and allies. But when a democratically elected populist president uses Venezuela's oil profits to lift poor people out of poverty, they accuse him of pandering.
(snip)

Eighty-two percent of Venezuelans think Chávez is doing a good job. That's more than twice the approval rating by Americans of Bush. He roundly defeated an attempt to recall him. So why is Washington lecturing Caracas?

"The {Venezuelan} government is making billions of dollars and spending them on houses, education, medical care," notes CNN. And--gasp--people's lives are improving.

What if the rest of us noticed? No wonder Chávez has to go.

RALL 4/4/06 COPYRIGHT 2004 UNIVERSAL PRESS SYNDICATE

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ETC.

[Judi Lynn]

96. Venezuela Triples Subsidized Food

Venezuela Triples Subsidized Food

Caracas, Feb 26 (Prensa Latina) The subsidized-food supply network, Food Market (MERCAL), distributes 4,000 daily tons of products in Venezuela, Food Minister Rafael Oropeza reported.

That number triples the quantity distributed three weeks ago, when President Hugo Chavez criticized deficiencies in that network, one of the social programs for a better distribution of the South American country s resources.

Oropeza told press that they are also working to register new national providers, which have difficulties to join the private distribution networks that are usually supplied by big business.

According to estimates, the MERCAL network provides food to more than 15 out of 26 million Venezuelans, with basic products, subsidized to favor the sectors with lowest incomes.
(snip/)

~~~~ link ~~~~

[pokercat999]

122. All very good but how does that justify dumping

4 billion into weapons? He'd be much better off spending just a few million to eliminate the heads of state of the countries he's having trouble with. I'm not advocating volience.....just say'n.

[Judi Lynn]

125. Why not refer to the perfectly good link posted by a DU'er on this page already?

http://www.armscontrolcenter.org/archives/002244.php

Surely you aren't dim enough to suggest Venezuela has no right to defend itself. We've seen that pathetic drizzle here before, and it's simply embarrassing.

[nolabels]

154. At least with a decent amount military and it's support...........

Venezuela can stave off any internal coup and repel any proxy wars from nearby countries. A hegemonic force controlled by the corporate borg is the only thing they probably couldn't defend against.

[Judi Lynn]

155. You bet. They've learned several times they can expect unpleasant things

from U.S.-dependent, right-wing loony, corrupt, monstrously bloody Colombia, when it's proxy wars.

How explicit does it need to be when the world has just learned Uribe's director of secret police, Jorge "Noguera also was accused of playing host to men accused of plotting to kill Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez."
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-fg-colombia23feb23,1,3783018.story?coll=la-news-a_section

This was only the latest time the picture has been completely spelled out for Venezuela about its neighbor, the 3rd largest recipient of U.S. financial backing in the world, and host to U.S. military, and contractors, like DynCorps!

[nolabels]

184. Yea, the news is out there but no one wants to listen to the fact.........

the biggest pirates are headquartered by North America in the District of Columbia.

[pokercat999]

156. Surely you aren't dim enough to think 4 billion in

weapons is nearly enough to protect him from "shock and awe"? My point is it's simply a waste of money that could be used to enhance the well being of the people rather than the well being of the military/industrial complex in Russia, China or France.

[Judi Lynn]

157. Apparently you haven't taken time out to do the reading necessary

to be informed on what is happening in Venezuela, which is a little dimmer than the DU'ers who DO read as much as time allows.

Don't be pointless enough to make claims about what others think, then attack them for your bogus claims. That's someting you don't see from DU'ers.

That lame attempt has been launched here before, and it doesn't lead anywhere.

Certain kinds of people just don't believe Venezuela doesn't have the right to defend itself. Period. It's stupid, it's even idiotic, but it happens when people depend witlessly upon _Bush propaganda.

[pokercat999]

185. I never said Venezuela didn't have the right to

defend itself. I just said it was a waste of money to spend 4 billion on defense. Apparently you are a war monger that enjoys seeing the weapons factories at full production or do you really believe someone is going to attack Venezuela?

[rman]

159. Poverty in Venezuela is not what it used to be

Poverty as it used to be was created be Chavez's predecessors. Thanks to Chavez, being poor in Venezuela no longer means not to have food, healthcare, housing and education.

So unlike your assertion, poverty in Venezuela is not nearly as rampant as it used to be.

And what is the basis for your assertion that Chavez needs a boogeyman in order to stay in power? He has been elected and reelected several times by a large majority on popular domestic issues; primarily to help the poor.

[INDIA]

170. Please find in my post...

Where I ever said that poverty in Venezuela is worse than it used to be, copy paste, put it in quotes, and repost it for me.

I never said that, that's a borderline smear/lie. Back up your bullshit.

Do it. It won't be easy.

[rman]

171. Yeah, you're carefull to phrase the things you say so that it is litteraly true,

just misleading.


on edit:

You said/implied there is abject poverty in Venezuela.

Going by the definition of "abject", and the state of poverty in Venezuela, it is obvious that poverty in Venezuela is in fact not abject.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/abject

abject

1. utterly hopeless, miserable, humiliating, or wretched: abject poverty.
2. contemptible; despicable; base-spirited: an abject coward.
3. shamelessly servile; slavish.
4. Obsolete. cast aside.

[Judi Lynn]

174. Yeah, you're right.

Looks to me what you said was absolutely appropriate. Here's the post you addressed:

Come on now. I would bet my house that the United States will never attack Venezuela. I find that absurd. I saw a segment on CNN of a dirt-poor, brain-washed Venezuelan man preparing his slum for an "impending" attack by US Marines. He was pointing out places where they could rain down hot oil and rocks on the Marines in some of the slum's alleyways. I believe he was in charge of some sort of rag-tag civilian militia that Chavez enacted. It was the saddest thing I have ever seen. Anything to distract from the rampant poverty I guess.

Bush is to Terror like Chavez is to the US. They both need boogeymen to keep their power and support. It's pathetic.
(snip/...)

You were right, obviously. No way to circumvent it. Uninformed, clumsy, desperate claims by someone who can't take the time to read in order to get it right.

Those who rely on "news" from CNN are doomed to have a cartoonish view, and an easily confused one, of reality. That's the price they pay for lacking the awareness, discipline to read in order to find out the truth.

[INDIA]

180. News Snob!!!!

And to Rman, your post made absolutely no sense. If you had politely asked me, I would have agreed with you that Chavez has been extremely helpful to his country's poor population, much more than previous administrations. That does not take away from the fact that the gentleman I am referring too lived in a slum, was poor, and believed a ridiculous fantasy that US Marines would be invading his barrio soon.

Grasping for straws?

[INDIA]

182. Can you read?

Find where I ever used the word "abject" in any of my posts. You even defined it for me, even though I never used the word!!!! You are Bizarre! And I haven't edited anything.

Before you attack my posts, please be kind enough to actually READ THEM.

[MasonJar]

2. Bushco strikes again! What a bunch of ignorant "MoRANS"!

Bush likes to lead with his gut feelings, but his gut is braindead.

[youngdem]

3. Who can blame him?

The biggest bully in the world with the biggest set of guns is threatening to attack and take their oil. He would be a failed leader if he didn't fatten up his military. They are sitting on a pile of wealth rare in the world. They are right to protect it from greedy, dishonest men like the ones currently running our country.

[Pavulon]

4. Where your Citgo dollars go..

Cant we just switch to bio fuels and get it over with. If there was a cross isle issue energy independence is it. Brazil did it. So can we.

That spending is no threat to the us, it is a threat to SA neighbors.

[Vidar]

5. Chavez has done noting but help his neighbors.

[originalpckelly]

6. You forgot the "h" slick.

And this Chavez fella is starting to look like a dictator more and more everyday.

[Judi Lynn]

8. By the time you start picking on posters for typos, you've lost any credibility.

Attacking other posters personally is discouraged, and most DU'ers don't stoop to do that.

[Pavulon]

7. You mean Columbia

I am sure they are loving this build up. Oh wait, they are not.

[Judi Lynn]

9. Colombia has its own problems to manage, in case you've not noticed.

Arrest moves Colombian scandal closer to Uribe
The former chief of the nation's top investigative agency is the latest official held on suspicion of having ties to illegal right-wing militias.
By Chris Kraul and Jenny Carolina Gonzalez, Special to The Times
February 23, 2007


Inquiry widens
BOGOTA, COLOMBIA — Authorities on Thursday arrested the former head of Colombia's top police agency in connection with a widening paramilitary scandal that is moving closer to President Alvaro Uribe.

The arrest of Jorge Noguera, who directed the Department of Administrative Security, or DAS, follows the resignation Monday of Foreign Minister Maria Consuelo Araujo. Araujo's brother is among five congressmen, all staunch Uribe supporters, who have been arrested on charges of having links to illegal right-wing militias.

Four other current and former members of Congress were arrested in November on charges ranging from mass murder to extortion and electoral fraud.

Noguera, 43, was a close associate of the president. Noguera organized Uribe's 2002 presidential campaign in Colombia's coastal zone.
(snip)

Noguera also was accused of playing host to men accused of plotting to kill Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.
(snip/...)

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-fg-colombia23feb23,1,3783018.story?coll=la-news-a_section

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Monday, December 19th, 2005
Colombian military implicated in plot against Chavez: Uribe
BOGOTA, Colombia (AFP) — Venezuelan former soldiers plotted against President Hugo Chavez’s government at a Colombian military building, Colombian President Alvaro Uribe said.

Uribe made the stunning disclosure Saturday at this Caribbean resort town where he is meeting with Chavez, and after analyzing documents furnished by the Venezuelan leader.

“The Venezuelan soldiers who are in Bogota went to a building to meet with members of the Colombian military.

President Chavez gave us these documents … we analyzed them and this morning I said to President Chavez: ‘I must tell you the truth: this is a building of Colombia’s public forces,’” he said.

Uribe said that intelligence efforts against the Venezuelan government are conducted in the building, and took full responsibility for the affair.
(snip/...)

http://www.rinf.com/columnists/news/colombian-military-implicated-in-plot-against-chavez-uribe

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Colombia: Uribe Must End Attacks on Media
by Human Rights Watch (reposted)
Wednesday Apr 19th, 2006 6:35 AM

~snip~
Political assassination in Venezuela: García recently said in an interview that the DAS collaborated with paramilitaries in a plot to assassinate several Venezuelan leaders, including President Hugo Chavez and a prosecutor, Danilo Anderson. More than 100 alleged paramilitaries were arrested near the Venezuelan capital of Caracas, and a few months later, Anderson was killed. Based on testimony by one of those arrested, Venezuelan authorities have charged former DAS director Noguera with knowledge of the alleged plot.
(snip/...)

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2006/04/19/18163261.php

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Colombian paramilitaries in Caracas: background information timeline
By Vannessa Carolina del Valle Marcano
May 19, 2004, 10:15

Diario Panorama/VTV report: Panorama (Maracaibo) has published background information related to the events last Sunday on the outskirts of Caracas, when a group of at least 79 paramilitaries were seized at a ranch owned by opposition leader Roberto Alonso. In order to obtain a broader overview of the facts and activities preceding the events of the past few days, the list has been combined with another compilation published by Venezolana de Television on its website.

Background information timeline:

*April 25, 2002 – The Military Intelligence Directorate (DIM) finds a bunker with grenade throwers, machine guns, rifles, military uniforms, night vision equipment, magazines and artillery at the home of opposition businessman, Isaac Perez Recao in Caracas. This was the first of many similar searches.

*August 24, 2002 – Movimiento Quinta Republica (MVR) National Assembly members broadcast a video showing Carabobo Police officers training alleged insurgents who possessed M-16A1 missiles. The officers also had other high-caliber weapons.

*April 27, 2003 – Patria Para Todos (PPT) leader Jorge Nieves is killed by alleged paramilitaries in Apure state, receiving 5 bullet wounds while leading a pro-land reform demonstration in Guasdualito, Apure State. Nieves had accused dissident General Enrique Medina Gomez of torture and threats.

*On August 27, 2003 – Human Rights activist and attorney at law, Joel Castillo murdered. He died from 11 bullet wounds. Alleged members of the United Colombian Auto Defense (AUC) had threatened the victim.

*November 7, 2003 – Eleven thousand 762-caliber magazines, 11 TNT torpedoes, a FAL weapon, a C4 explosive device, 2 grenades, a tear gas bomb and military apparel were found in Aragua state. 140 thousand FAL magazines were also found in Vargas State. It is rumored that one of the dissident Altamira military officers was the mastermind of these events.

*November 20, 2003–The National Guard (GN) and the Scientific Intelligence Police (CICPC) arrested three alleged paramilitaries in Machiques de Perija. These three irregulars had a hit list of 11 supposed victims, which included the heads of INTI, DIEX, CICPC and GN. They were also charged as responsible for the murder of Joel Castillo.

*March 30, 2004 – A radical group of Cuban exiles named the “F4 Commandos,” headquartered in Miami, offers training and assistance to Venezuelans who wish to choose the way of “belligerence” to deal with the political situation, making an “enthusiastic call to our sister nations to take back the freedom of our homeland through the only available means: the dignified response of insurrection.” The group is led by “Commander” Rodolfo Frometa and Captain (ret.) Luis Garcia Morales.

*April 10, 2004 – According to The Miami Herald, Venezuelan rebel General Felipe Rodriguez, known as “The Crow” ... in hiding for the previous 5 months ... affirms that he was developing clandestine groups to topple president Hugo Chavez and establish a civilian-military transitional government in the country. The General assured that 25-30 of the 150 dissident military officers that participated in the Altamira Square protests were part of the clandestine network: “Those commandos who exclusively recruit civilians are not quite ready for an effective civil resistance, and they act on primitive instinct rather than with proper training”

*April 13, 2004 – The Colombian Senate, headed by conservative Enrique Gomez Hurtado, approves a communiqué to be sent to the Organization of American States (OAS) Secretary General, Cesar Gaviria, in order for this continental organization’s Permanent Council to apply the Democratic Charter to Venezuela due to the alleged violation of human rights and the social and economical crisis that the country is going through.

*April 18, 2004 – US Senator Bill Nelson (Dem.Fla) visits Venezuela for 3 days and accuses the National Government of being “hostile and unfriendly towards the United States.” This Senator sounds like a possible candidate to Vice President of the United States along with John Kerry as President.

*April 20, 2004 – The OAS has not considered the Colombian Senate’s proposal to apply the Democratic Charter to Venezuela due to the fact that, according to Secretary General Cesar Gaviria, the OAS only accepts initiatives from governments.

*April 26, 2004 – MVR National Assembly deputy, William Lara, requests the Public Defender’s Office to further investigate the “guarimbas” (a plan, by which small groups of people blocked traffic and burned trash on key avenues in Caracas and other cities).

*April 29, 2004 – (Nuevo Herald) In its “Global Terrorism Trends 2003” report, the US State Department assured that Venezuela had offered an “inconsistent” cooperation on the war on terror. They point out that “public recrimination” from President Hugo Chavez and his supporters against US anti-terrorist policies “have darkened and obstructed the limited cooperation” between specialists and technicians from both countries. The report says that Chavez “has expressed his ideological affinity” with FARC and ELN guerrillas, which “limits Venezuelan cooperation with Colombia to combat terrorism.”
~more~

http://www.axisoflogic.com/cgi-bin/exec/view.pl?archive=59&num=7843

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Much more information available, of course.

[ohio2007]

11. ...And the Russian Military Industrial Complex laughs all the way to the bank

<crickets>

[Pavulon]

14. Yep

30 migs is big money. Parts, training, etc.

The Russians need some help.

[Judi Lynn]

15. How does your post relate to mine? I don't see any connection.

Please take the time to illuminate.

[Pavulon]

17. I can

The money they were giving us for parts is now going to Russia, plus a fat chunk of citgo dollars for new airframes. Since Venezuala is a petro state and does not manufacture its own airframes it buys them from Russia.

So Russia gets a new equipment sale, and a parts contract. I am sure they will buy simulators, new weapons(missiles, radars, comm gear). The weapon systems form f-16 do not work with the mig. They will spend big dollars just cutting over.

Pretty sweet deal, for Russia. All that money for a 1970's designed fighter that is obsolete against any first rate air force. F-22, eurofigher, etc.

edit spelling.

[Judi Lynn]

18. I asked Ohio2007 how his post had anything to do with my post, which

concerned aggression by Colombian paramilitaries in Venezuela, and plots to assassinate Chavez which were known by Alvaro Uribe, and were discussed by Uribe with Chavez, after a time.

Ohio 2007's response to that post was "And the Russian Military Industrial Complex laughs all the way to the bank."

I have to get actual sensible information on what the connection is between the two posts. I don't see one.

[Pavulon]

20. Oops, I misread..

I will leave that to the poster.

[ohio2007]

23. "100,000 Kalashnikov assault rifles –"

Are they made in amerikka ?

Why do you ignore and give a thumbs up to the manufacturers who make the arms race possible. We'll only have * available to bash for a limited time and he will be outta here ( unlike the way other governments are going to function over the same time frame )

Wonder if Chavez will be satisfied with 'only' 100,000 when there are manufacturers and dealers beating a path to his door?
Will his logic be "The next US president may be ten times worse then what we have now ?"

Just saying, be careful what you wish for.

[Flanker]

27. Oh 100k is only the begining there is a 150k licence to be locally produced

It is a wise investment to defend agianst Bush, or Republicans or DLC democrats.

[ohio2007]

29. gringos in other words

he doesn't hate the americans, just the american government.

Which is elected by the people he loves.

[Flanker]

33. Do you hate Venezuelans, or those that they elect?

I know that the US is just one crappy excuse from invading anybody they dislike. DLCers are not to be trusted either.

[ohio2007]

39. The world becomes an even bigger dynamite shack

I am against the military industrial complex of any country flooding the world with arms.
I think Chavez should feed the poor with butter instead of dabbling with bullets. His policy only advances the art of war but he has a free rein for the next 18 months.

[Judi Lynn]

42. Free reign? Just like the OTHER TWO TIMES he had the same situation?

No one realized they could get some great propaganda mileage the first two times, so they really missed their chances.

This will be the THIRD time he has used this power, not to mention various OTHER VENEZUELAN PRESIDENTS who used it, WITH NO NOISE WHATSOEVER surrounding their use.

Don't be the first to jump onto the propaganda bandwagon, nor the last to fall off.

Concerning feeding the poor, it would do you some good to look into that part of the national programs called "Mission Mercal." That would be very helpful for someone living in darkness concerning what is being done nationally in Venezuela to transform and improve daily nutrition for the poor.

[ohio2007]

47. Well then I wish you luck with your violent revolution

and spreading the wealth while shopping in the price controlled grocery stores down there.

[Judi Lynn]

66. Violent revolution? You'd be doing posters a favor to make that understandable.

Take your time, use references, if necessary.

[Flanker]

43. Then take on the big guys first, like the US or Israel.

I mean those are the real buyers for the mil-industrial complex.

[Megahurtz]

97. Well Unfortunately, Dude

when you have the Biggest Bully/Thug Country in the World flexing it's muscles everywhere
and flooding their favortite Israel with Nukes, heavy Arms and Billions of Dollars,
one has a duty to get defensive.:think:

I know I would.

[Pavulon]

102. Israel in not a NPT member

and if it has nukes it has not made them public or used them.

The us has not supplied them with nuclear weapons.

[EFerrari]

77. Really? What evidence do you have that Junior was ever elected?

:shrug:

[Judi Lynn]

32. You've missed something, apparently.

My post, to which you responded discussing something not remotely related, concerned Colombian paramilitaries' incursions into Venezuela, and concerned Alvaro Uribe's awareness of plots to murder Chavez, which he discussed with him, at some point, and concerned his security chief Noguero and Noguero's complete awareness of, if not actual involvement in a separate plot to murder Hugo Chavez, this information having been published in various news reports in the last week.

Your response to this post directed us to consider Russia laughing all the way to the bank. Well, Russia was not the topic in my post, nor was it even peripherally involved.

You are STILL either unable to focus long enough to answer the question, or avoiding it altogether without admitting what you are doing.

What does Russia have to do with the Colombian paramilitaries, and Noguera, and Alvaro Uribe? Please advise.

[ohio2007]

36. What does Russia have to do with the Colombian paramilitaries ?

I guess that depends where the paramilitaries get their weapons and support money to purchase them.
The thread was about weapons being purchased by a South American presidente for life. If I stepped on your toes connecting insurrection dots linking South American countries via your articles .....
oops, my bad.
I thought the thread was about arms supplies purchased in South America.

I'm sure Chavez would never use those arms for anything but self defense.

[struggle4progress]

100. Who is "presidente for life"?

[krispos42]

60. AKs are not a high-profit item

This isn't some gold-plated piece of defense spending pork like the anti-ballistic-missile system is. The Kalashikov design has been around for so long, and the manufacturing process so streamlined and improved, that I doubt he'll pay more than $500 per unit.

This is core stuff here for an army. No pie-in-the-sky, high-maintenance gilded toys like F-15s or Abrahms tanks.

[ohio2007]

26. read the articles you posted again

The articles drip of murder,death and revenge. Payback is through the purchase of weapons.
Look at those articles again but through the eyes of a sales pitch weapons dealer 'selling' his product through those examples.

it's a sellers market with all that oil money sloshing around.

[Pavulon]

16. Venezuela and Colombia

are not always playing nice. This relatively tiny military expenditure means nothing to the us, it is of zero threat and zero import in any conflict (primarily the one in chavez's mind). It is relevant in SA. relevant to Columbia. I wonder if we will support their move from the mirage based jets they have into a f-15 platform that was designed specifically to kill the systems that Venezuela just bought?

If they have the money I am sure we would sell them the jets and the awacs (or lend out what we use for interdiction now) to hedge that technology.

The funny part, you money would be paying for it all, on both sides.

[Flanker]

22. Colombia is getting Chilean second hand Mirage III "elkans"

Maybe Kfir upgrades, soon their airforce will be worse than 4 of their neighbors, only Panama is worse since it has no airforce.

As for the sales it is a purchase made without time context. Over the long run Venezuela spends in spikes rather than over time.

[struggle4progress]

98. U.S. Military Spending vs. the World (CDI 6 Feb 06)

http://www.armscontrolcenter.org/archives/002244.php

This is an informative bit of data. You might compare the Colombia and Venezuela data to that for the US

[Judi Lynn]

99. Now there's a real eye-opener. My God. Excellent link. Thank you. n/t

[ProudDad]

107. And that doesn't include

the $400+ billion per year of debt service attributable to the Carter/ray-gun/bush/Clinton/bush military build up.

http://www.warresisters.org/piechart.htm

[w4rma]

137. So Columbia is spending four times as much as Venezuela is on defense. (nt)

[IndianaGreen]

49. I am glad that my CITGO dollars go to protect the Venezuelan people

from American imperialism. The Venezuelan elites and their rightwing allies in America be damned!

[Pavulon]

61. Get real

30 jets and aks have no effect on the US. That is power aimed aimed at Colombia. I would rather my citgo dollars go to a farmer than a wailing ass. Just take my money and shut up...I mean he is an oil pimp. No different than the fat exxon guy, just talks more.

[ProudDad]

65. Uh, maybe that's because

Columbia is and has been for years a puppet govt. of the U.S.

Chavez knows that another armed attempts against the people of Venezuela would come from a U.S. puppet since he's totally defeated his internal oligarchy (for the near future).

As for your biased, ad-homonym attacks on Hugo Chavez -- I don't remember Chevron or Shell or Exxon offering to ease the misery of folks in the U.S. who are hurting from their price gouging. Chavez sells oil for what it's going for. He has no more power over prices than any other Opec member.

The folks who are f*cking you (and me) over are the Ameri-British oil company execs...maybe you ought to direct your anger where it belongs.

[Pavulon]

67. They are all bending us over

Shell has no political incentive to give away free product. I can win free gas for life from BP...Chavez could give a fuck, he is just embarrassing bush.

Chavez has stated his position on oil pricing (60 or more). I have mine. His life depends on it.

I would rather direct my money to a product, like ethanol or b100 that generates wealth here.

I have no love for the fat exxon bastard, but again he is taking my wallet without spewing off at the mouth.

So should we arm Colombia with similar weaponry. Even with the oil bucks I am pretty sure we could afford to provide Colombia a massive resource of equipment like we do Israel. Every body profits, MIC, Russians, Oil whores..He would have to buy more jets to fight the evil empire.

Every body but you and me makes out. Like I said. I'd rather a farmer get the money.

A farmer who will take my money and shut the hell up.

[ProudDad]

68. I'm curious

what do you have against free speech? :hi:

on EDIT: I'm 100% for CONSERVATION first then alternative energy. Steps like a huge economic impact tax on auto companies for vehicles in proportion to their mileage figures would be a good first start.

Personally, I'd rather Sr. Chavez gets the money since he DOES use the bulk of it to try to help the people of Venezuela than for ADM to get the money. ADM keeps their mouths shut while they pay their executives (and the politicians they buy) huge sums from their exorbitant profits. ADM is just as bad as Wal-Mart... And don't get me started on the ADM contribution to the rapidly climbing diabetes rate in this country.

Then I would like to see an end to all fossil fuel use by mid-century. It's certainly technically possible.

As an old friend of mine, the left-wing economist Doug Dowd said about world hunger, "it's NOT a problem of supply, it's a political problem!"

http://www.dougdowd.org/

http://www.zmag.org/bios/homepage.cfm?authorID=111

[Flanker]

72. The US will not even sell Colombia second hand F-16s

The democrats in congress have at least started to pay attention to the paramilitary links (a welcomed plus), and Colombia will have to do with third hand Mirage IIIs and woefully inadecuate Kfir C10's

[Pavulon]

74. Until it is in the interest of the US

to provide loans for the entire purchase price of f-15x which can haul more farther, fly faster, and carry everything that kills people from the air from the venerable b61 down to leaflet droppers.

Arms races are great for the manufacturers..

I bet hugo would burst a blood vessel in his head if the US started delivering 2nd tier weapon systems to his neighbors. AWACS, support, has to be worth hundreds of millions (tiny line item in the military budget). Not like we don't arm people we don't love to threaten people we really don't like.

Authorize Egypt to sell some of the stepped down Abrams battle tank they make under contract, every body gets paid..

Except you, me, and the poor.

End the end, when the countries are no longer aligned, we just stop selling them parts, so their jets dont fly..Prety good business model. Iran has some worthless f-14s that came about the same way.

[Flanker]

103. Iran does not have useless F-14s and that is probably why the theory falls apart

Heck they are the only F-14 in operation.

As for second hand F-15... Come on dude why nost jsut claim that they will give them raptors? please if they are not willing to sell second hand F16 Block 30, what makes you think they will let go of air superiority fighters? Anyhow an upgraded Su-30 is superior to every F-teen fighter in operation.

They COULD buy them brand new but don't have the dough. They are stuck with Israeli and Belgium-then-Chilean hand me downs.

[Pavulon]

113. Israel, S Korea, Japan, Magic Kingdom

all have f-15's. Israel gets fat subsidies to use that jet.

Iran has f-14's with no parts supply. Hence they have jack shit. They could have f-22s or eurofighters and they would still die on the ground or in the air because they are piss poor trained. Ever wonder why African airliners are falling from the sky. No parts or service.
Th
I did not say they should loan them the money to buy the f15 , an undefeated air frame, that out flys, out hauls, and out accelerates its commblock counter parts.

But it sure would piss off a certain red shirted guy.

[Flanker]

127. Iran has F-14s operational sorry you did not know that

In between canibalism, Soviet/Russian tech, and local ingenuity they have kept dozens of airframes operational 30 plus years after the parts embargoe and outliving the USNavy.

http://misc.kitreview.com/bookreviews/iranianf14bookreviewkb_1.htm

As for the F-15 out anything, it is well documented that Mig-29 and Su-27 family outmaneuver any US plane, with the capacity to reach ridiculous AOA. No western fighter can do the cobra or the kulbit.

The west has a rapidly closing gap in avionics and training though.

[Pavulon]

129. Yes I am sure they would do well

I think we have b-17's flying too.

the f-15 is an undefeated airframe (0) kills against it.. Killed plenty of (34) migs. Because the people flying them were DNS mother**. It is an air superiority fighter. Meaning it kills this jet before it is in visible range. A high speed energy fight negates the turning radius. Better avionics, radar, awacs, and beyond all training make the USAF un paralleled.

Note the kills of fleeing aircraft, that meant they were overtaken or intercepted.

The f-22 has thrust vectoring. And a generation ahead anything in the russian pipe. Even flying on refurb parts do you thing a 25 year old avionics system flown by piss trained pilots will has any chance against modern equipment.

Like all the black jets it can carry thermonuclear weapons, allowing a blind first strike.

According to the USAF, its F-15Cs had thirty-four confirmed kills of Iraqi aircraft during the 1991 Gulf War, mostly by missile fire: 5 MiG-29 'Fulcrums', 2 MiG-25 'Foxbats', 8 MiG-23 'Floggers', 2 MiG-21 'Fishbeds', 2 Su-25 'Frogfoots', 4 Su-22 Fitters, 1 Su-7, 6 Mirage F1, 1 Il-76 cargo plane, 1 Pilatus PC-9 trainer, and 2 Mi-8 helicopters. After air superiority was achieved in the first 3 days of the conflict, many of the later kills were reportedly of Iraqi aircraft fleeing to Iran, rather than actively trying to engage US planes. The single-seat F-15C was used for air superiority, and the F-15E was heavily used in air-to-ground attacks. An F-15E achieved an aerial kill of another Iraqi Mi-8 helicopter using a laser-guided bomb during the air war. The F-15E sustained two losses to ground fire in the Gulf War in 1991.<2>

In 1994, 2 US Army UH-60 Black Hawks were downed by USAF F-15C in the Northern no-fly zone of Iraq in a friendly fire incident.<3>

USAF F-15C's also shot down 4 Yugoslav MiG-29's during NATO's 1999 intervention in Kosovo, Operation Allied Force.<4>

[Flanker]

131. And the Mig-25 shot down a Hornet. Still does not prove much

Just that airforces win conflicts, not planes. Colombia with F-15 would still be at a disadvantage mainly due to superior fighter training on the other side, however if Venezuela goes ahead with the Su-35 or upgrades the planes with the Iribiz PESA radar then turn off the lights. Any F-15 would be detected and locked on 400 +Km away

[Pavulon]

134. Didn't work to well

for the dead migs. This is a real start to an arms race over an imagined threat. This equipment poses no threat to the US.

The US poses no threat to Venezuela.

[Flanker]

148. Of course it poses a threat, the US did not just walk in Iraq

completely naked and unarmed. They took their time dismantling a completely obsolete army.

Contrast that to Grenada or Panama that had no army.

The result is inevitable, but the question is how long the country could last. Time to blow up oil wells and infrastructure, Time to set up militia cells etc. Time is increadibly valuable, and in this case worth 4 billion dollars.

[ProudDad]

142. And they should ALL

be melted down to make kitchen utensils or some other useful device...

[ProudDad]

108. I'm going to go out on a limb here

I suspect that like me you'd like to see a world without egregious fossil fuel use and without war toys.

I suspect that Hugo Chavez would agree with us.

But, Sr. Chavez has oil and right now, that's the only thing he can use to help his people right now.

As for the arms, I'm sure Sr. Chavez knows they would be utterly ineffective against the U.S. military. I'm sure he also knows everything and more than you (or I) do about the relative capabilities of various war toys.

What's your point?

Is it that the people of Venezuela have no right to TRY to defend themselves against the U.S. and their capitalist masters?

[Pavulon]

117. The evil masters

do not care about 24 migs. The Colombians may.

It is not directed at us.

Yes I would rather the wealth spent on energy stay here.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

130. Your concern for the Colombians is so touching. It almost brings

tears to my eyes. It seems to me Venzuela has more reasons to be worried about Colombia and not the other way around.

Also I don't know if anyone's explained this to you but the CIA is not omnipotent. They actually do fuck up from time to time. Fidel Castro is living proof of that.

[Pavulon]

135. I could care less about either one

But this silly excuse of evil Americans and a 24 mig response in not based in the real world. This is a coffee shop conversation.

I wonder if there was ever a handshake after 63 that would not kill or overthrow the Cubans?

[Flanker]

143. They still tried it dozens of times

Google operation mongoose.

Face it the CIA is good at whatever limits destabilization has. Anything more like assasination and they have failed countless times.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

144. Suuuuuure of course you don't care. Maybe it's just me but I'm starting to

think that the mere mention of the name Chavez is like crack to you. I'll ask you again. If you don't give a shit. Why must you show up on every thread about Venezuela repeating the same tired ol' shit? Is it for the entertainment value or something?

"I wonder if there was ever a handshake after 63 that would not kill or overthrow the Cubans?"

Could you repeat that in english this time please?

[Judi Lynn]

153. Maybe there were a lot of key words left out!

It leaves a strange image with a person, after pondering the post .....

[Pavulon]

164. Because it is a fun topic

unless you people have real political power we are having the equivalent of an intellectual discussion over coffee and cigarettes. Devils advocate is fun. This guy has some big time pimps here. He is a water walker in their mind.

After the cuban missile crisis it is SPECULATED that the US agreed to make no moves to overthrow the cuban regime.

Of course this can not be proven.

My main problem with Chavez is his constantly running mouth. He should hang out with paris hilton and shave his, well you get the point.

He constantly bites the hand that feeds him. If the us changed its energy consumption habits his little social experiment would come crashing down.

That is the real threat to him, not the military, but some breakthrough that changes energy consumption.

That breakthrough is well overdue.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

169. So are you're saying the CIA never tried to assassinate Fidel Castro?

Because in your mind if they tried there is no way the could have fucked it up, right?. Wow talk about being able to walk on water. It seems to me The Agency also has plenty of people "pimping" for them as well.

What about this. What if the US government would just buy his product and shut the fuck up about him and his government? I mean it's only fair right? Or is this one of those "Do as I say not as I do" type of deals? The USA is not changing its consumption habits any time soon. So I guess his little experiment might last a little longer than you would hope.

I have a question for you. Since the CIA only overthrows or kills commies. Was Jacobo Arbenz one of those filthy commies?

[olddad56]

124. and where do your exxon dollars go?

[olddad56]

126. They still spend far less than the US. And they are spending their $ on defense..

not on terrorizing other countries.

[winston61]

10. Jesus, can you blame them?

It's not a question of if, but when. The US attack is coming. As long as Cheney is a free man, Chavez is in the cross hairs.

[BayCityProgressive]

13. Good for Venezuela

if the country continues down the road to socialism you can bet that a Democrat or a Republican will attack them or get their proxy Columbia to attack them. For the poster above calling Chavez a dictator. In case you hadn't heard he fairly won all his elections, unlike Bush, and if military spending makes you a dictator, there are many dictators higher than him on the list. I swear 1/2 the people on DU lately are straight from the Miami Cuban mob. This place is turning right wing on a lot of issues.

[Dave From Canada]

78. If there is indeed not an if but when in terms of an invasion of Venezuela,

Chavez's military build-up won't stop anything. His 30 new jets would be destroyed in a matter of hours. I think there's far better things to spend 4 billion dollars on.

[UTUSN]

19. HahahahaHAH!!1 Er, I mean, LalalalalalalaLAH!!1 n/t

[muryan]

21. war is peace, peace is war

chavez is just trumping up a bogus threat to keep his country occupied. the united states is not going to attack venezuala because there is not legitimate reason to do so. I dont care if jerry falwell is president, its just not going to happen. there may be some of you who disagree with me on here but id bet every dollar ill ever own it.

[Judi Lynn]

24. That is rarely the plan when the U.S. undertakes to overthrow a government in Latin America.

I believe it has only be reserved for the smallest and least protected countries, like Panama, Grenada, Cuba, etc.

If you break down and start catching up on your neglected research on U.S. policy in Latin America and the Caribbean, you'll finally discover what it is DU'ers are talking about, after all this time.

You owe it to yourself to get in there and start whacking away at that mountain of information you need to study in order to have any idea of what has been going on all these years.

It's very easy to make quick assessments of the situation when you're not even aware of the facts involved. It saves time, but you're far off course.

[muryan]

28. I am well aware of the facts concerning policy towards L.A.

and im not denying that this administration or a future one would back an opposing party to chavez. But my point was that of an outright attack by us military is very very slim. And yes there was grenada and bay of pigs etc but those were isolated incidents in my view point and not something the american public is ready to stand by and let happen again

[EFerrari]

79. Etc? You relegate the slaughter of innocent people to "etc"?

You might want to check out the thread in the Latino forum on US "intervention" in Latin America. And you might want to google "school of the americas".

The United States has been killing brown people to the south with impunity since there was a south.

You think Abu Graib was bad? Hate to be the messenger.

[Flanker]

25. And you probably lost that bet if you replace Ven for Iraq and 2000 for 2003

nm

[BayCityProgressive]

31. are you actually serious?

DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY GOVERNMENTS WE HAVE OVERTHROWN WITHOUT PRETEXT? Wake up people! We are an empire!

[Peace Patriot]

30. Pavulon seems to be get his info on Venezuela from the Bush State Department.

All innuendo. No facts. Usually short sentences, and dead wrong assertions, of a hostile or demeaning nature.

Venezuela has excellent relations with its neighbors, and is leading the continent in a movement for self-determination, for instance, using oil revenues to bail Argentina out of onerous World Bank debt, so that Argentina can recover from the devastation of "free trade," restore social programs, stabilize its economy and become a good trading partner for Brazil, Venezuela and others. Argentina is on the mend because of this, and has begun talks with Brazil on a common currency, and a South American "Common Market."

This is what Venezuela's oil revenues are being used for--to improve the lives of the vast impoverished populations of South America, devastated by the unfair "free trade" deals of previous rightwing governments. In Venezuela itself, the difference between all the oil profits going to the tiny rich elite and out of the country to foreign, mostly US oil giants, and the oil profits being equitably shared, and used for schools, university educations, medical care, land reform, community centers, small business loans and grants, low cost housing, support for local arts, and other benefits to people never before served by government, has made an enormous difference in Venezuela poverty levels, in productivity and growth of the private sector, and in Venezuela's future prospects. Education and other bootstraps for the poor are the essential building blocks of a future diversified economy.

These developments--oil rich Venezuela helping its own poor and helping its neighbors--horrify the Bush Junta, which believes that all profit of any kind belongs in the hands of the super-rich, and which is devoted to raping and pillaging other people's resources, especially oil. That is why Venezuela needs to have a reasonable defense capability. Bush is delivering a $4 billion check in ADDITIONAL military aid to Colombia for the murderous US "war on drugs" (war on peasants and leftists), money and arms that get into the hands of fascist paramilitaries and other evildoers, and of course does absolutely nothing to stop the drug trade. There is currently a huge scandal about the paramilitaries in Colombia, while US tax dollars flood into the country for the purchase of arms. President Uribe has so far refused to engage in plots against Chavez. Latin America for Latin Americans seems to have caught on, even in Colombia. However, Colombia and its military alliance with the Bush Junta, poses a serious threat to the stability of the region, and could be a launching pad for direct or covert efforts to destroy socialist and democratic governments in Bolivia, Ecuador and Venezuela, and to kill peasants and leftists and destroy their new democracy movements in Peru and Paraguay. The paramilitaries are not in the control of the government. They are their own little fascist armies of the sort that create military coups and fascist dictatorships on behalf of the rich, which rule by torture and death.

Why would the Bush Junta want to deny normal defense equipment deals to Venezuela, a democratic country--and, indeed, a country with a far better democracy than our own? What possible reason is there for economic sanctions against Venezuela, which has the most popular leadership (63% of the vote in the last election) and the most citizen participation in government of the whole continent? Why would the Bush Junta deny Venezuela replacement parts for military aircraft?

Well, their strategy in Iraq and Iran is clear. First sanctions, then, when the country is crippled, invasion. And of course only countries with big oil reserves get this treatment. The US has become a bully and a mass murderer, without conscience or law. It is ruled by the Bush Oil Cartel, which has its beady red eyes fixed on Venezuela--for its advocacy of democracy and regional self-determination, and for its oil. They also want control of the oil, gas, minerals and other resources in Bolivia and Ecuador, both now strong allies of Venezuela, where the poor have also been able to elect governments that serve the majority, and that believe, with Venezuela, that a country's resources should benefit the people who live there. Strategically, the Bush Junta move against these leftist democracies would probably strike first at Bolivia, possibly from northern Paraguay (where rumor has it that the Bush Cartel has purchased 300,000 acres near a US-taxpayer paid for military air base), and work with the drug-funded paramilitaries who are already causing trouble on Bolivia's border. Bolivia also has rightwing landowners and fascists bent on splitting off their provinces (the ones rich in resources) from the Morales government, who are already using thugs and paramilitary types to cause trouble. Ecuador could be another target--with a brand new leftist (majorityist) government and a strong leader, US-educated economist Rafael Correa, a good friend of Chavez and Morales.

In Peru, the fascists need to prevent a true leftist government from gaining power in the next election cycle. Bush has been larding "free trade" deals on the very corrupt Clintonite (pro-corporate) leftist Alan Garcia (the only candidate the Bushites and the rightwing had left to support, after a real leftist knocked the right's candidate out of the race last year, and almost won the presidency, with no funds and no political experience, boosted by endorsements from Morales and Chavez). Fascist paramilitaries based in Colombia could then move either north to Venezuela, or south to Ecuador (in a pincer movement against Ecuador, Peru and Bolivia).

None of these democracies is heavily militarized, which makes the Bush Junta infusion of billions of dollars in military aid to Colombia all the more suspicious. It could be just the drug/police/prison-industrial complex boondoggle we have come to know and love (not), or it could be something even worse (funding a fascist paramilitary army), or it could be both. Why is the Bush Junta pouring billions of dollars into arms in Colombia--a nominally democratic country (at best), and denying even replacement parts to a completely benign and beneficial democracy like Venezuela, where there are no paramilitaries?

This is what OUR money is being used for--to steal elections from the poor, for thugs and paramilitaries to disrupt lawful government, to destroy democracy, and rape and pillage South America once again. What would the Chavez government use its military for, if it had to? To stop this from happening.

Far from being a "threat" to its neighbors--which Pavulon asserts, with no evidence whatsoever--Venezuela is a good government, a good neighbor, and a highly beneficial influence, which will not stand idly by if neighboring democracies are threatened. The people of Ecuador, Bolivia, Peru and Venezuela want to US "war on drugs" ended--for this very reason. It does nothing but cause trouble. The people of three of these countries have managed to elect governments that are now taking positive steps to remove this bad US money and bad US policy from their region. Yet another reason the Bushites want to destroy them.

Venezuela represents the best of the best. Bush USA funds the worst of the worst. They fund coups, and thugs, and overthrowers of democracy, and exploiters and killers of the poor. Venezuela is wisely using the resource that it has--oil--to dramatically improve social conditions and to promote visionary ideas for the region, of cooperation and mutual aid. Bush USA is a tool of the Corporate Reich that wants to destroy all of this, and restore fascist juntas whom they can control. And we know what Bush USA uses oil for--to gouge and profiteer, to perpetrate horrible wars, to lie about environmental impacts, to prevent any change, and to destroy OUR democracy.

Before you buy into "hit and run" posts--so typical of Pavulon (short, snide, disheartening)--try to get educated on South American issues and recent developments. www.venezuelanalysis.com is a good place to start.

Bush is going on a fascist schmooze binge to South America in March. With US soldiers dying every day in Iraq for the Corporate Reich, and with the US fleet lurking in the Persian Gulf, Bush has some errands to do for his masters. One big one is to find a way to "divide and conquer" by splitting Brazil off from its friendship and cooperation with Chavez and his allies (Bolivia, Ecuador, Argentina). There aren't many South American countries where Bush can safely show his face. And Brazil is not one of them. But Brazil is a big prize, and they are taking the risk. President Lula da Silva will listen politely, get what benefits he can for his country and his region, out of a desperate Bush, keep him out of major cities and away from large Brazilian crowds, and give a wry smile at his departure--is my guess. Lulu is no fool.

He's also going to Colombia (natch), Mexico (to trade secrets of stolen elections with Calderon), Guatemala (rightwing still in power; scene of the slaughter of 200,000 Mayan Indians in the '80s, with Reagan's direct complicity; resurgent leftist movement led by Nobel Peace Prize winner Rigoberta Menchu--Bush needs to bolster the fascists). And Uruguay (leftist government, but mostly European population--Bush intent may be to stir up racism against brown heads of state).

That's it. Bush's South American tour. He can't even go to Chile, where the socialist President, Michele Batchelet, was tortured by the US-backed dictator Pinochet, and where Condi Rice apparently failed to sell Mr. Guantanamo Bay as an honored guest of state.

So, as long as you're still using oil, my friends, buy Citgo if you can. It's going to a good cause. It's going to the best of the best, of the South American democracies, to defeat the worst of the worst, of the oppressors of the north, who are, unfortunately, still acting in our name.

Viva la revolución!

[Flanker]

34. I personally enjoy the frustration and agressive remarks

:)

[Judi Lynn]

40. Love that image of Bush's pending "fascist schmooze binge!" In advance of his visit,

(you may have seen this posted in another thread, but I wanted to make sure you saw it, if not) Lula da Silva is tending to some lose ends in his part of the continent!

Saturday, February 24, 2007
Direct Link: http://www.mercopress.com/vernoticia.do?id=9930&formato=html


Guess who’s coming to Uruguay? And a week later?

Brazilian president Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva will be arriving Monday for a one day fence mending visit to Uruguay where together with President Tabare Vazquez they will be addressing an agenda with several controversial issues

Although both sides have tried to downplay differences and highlight understandings the fact is that Uruguay claims Mercosur, the South American trade block, has become a two members club, possibly three (Brazil, Argentina and Venezuela) leaving aside from benefits and decision making junior partners Uruguay and Paraguay plus limiting access to their larger markets.

Furthermore the Uruguayan government feels President Lula da Silva has let them down because so far he has refused to intervene or mediate in the bitter Argentine-Uruguay dispute over the construction of pulp mills along the shared river Uruguay.

Brazil’s predominance in the area (backyard ¿?) and influence with Argentine president Nestor Kirchner is undisputed, but Lula da Silva has accepted Buenos Aires stance arguing the pulp mills dispute is a “bilateral issue” and even avoided coming to a recent (November) Ibero American presidential and king’s summit held in Montevideo.
(snip/...)

http://www.mercopress.com/vernoticia.do?id=9930&formato=HTML

[Pavulon]

62. I get my facts from Jane's Defense

30 migs are zero threat to the US..Venezuela spends a teeny fraction on defense compared to the US. I would rather the money we pay for oil stay here and go to renewable resources. Speak out against that. Find a good reason why we should send our wealth to communistas (chavistas), radical saudis and the like.

Sorry I would rather the money stay here. I speak short facts. Why write a novel to state a simple truth.

Chavez heads a petro state. We are his biggest customer. So , IMHO, he should take our money and shut the fuck up. I am tired of hearing about him. He is a press whore, like Britney and her shaving problems. I don't care what he has to say.

If Venezuela uses its military it will not involve the united states.

The oil pimp's rhetoric about Reid prove he will be a boil on the ass of the next democratic president. Now it is Bush, it will continue.

My hope, use massive renewable energy resources and keep our money.

He can play Animal Farm on someone else's dime.

Without our money he is literally a dead man, with it he can buy all the russian toys he likes. In the end it makes no difference here.

[Flanker]

71. If you read Janes you would at least know it is Suhois not Migs

And closer to 20 than 30. As for Reid maybe he should mind his own business too.

[Pavulon]

73. Sukhoi, my error

su 30. 24 on order, a transposition error. Oddly nato designated Flanker not Fulcrum. Still, it poses no threat to the us or any forst world air force for that matter. Colombia is probably concerned.

Still an old soviet design, sold with Russian avionics. Circa 1970's early 80's

Good thing gas is going up, so they can afford to buy all new AA systems. Since all the F16 gear will not work with the soviet equipment. New tooling, parts, training, sims.. I bet that cost a fortune.

[Flanker]

104. It does not have 70's-80's avionics

Not to mention upgrade options can put it very close to the Su-35 which is Russia's top of the line fighter of the near future.

[Pavulon]

119. You mean soviet avionics

that the entire US MIC has been designed to jam, defeat and destroy. The entire USAF system is built to kill these jets with competent pilots and support systems. Venezuela has neither(compared the the Russians or a first world nation). It is a fine jet, great to intimidate Colombia. Worthless against the US, a complete joke. Stop selling yourself a reality that does not exist.

Chavez is not buying these jets to fight bush. The us in not attacking south America.

We spend .5 trillion dollars on defense. These jets and their pilots would die on the ground at 3am if there was the intent to attack.

There is none, only nationalist rhetoric from a braying jackass playing animal farm on our dime.

[Flanker]

128. You can jam radar not jets, plus I never deny the result is inevitable

Just that it makes it more EXPENSIVE to carry out. You know how the USAF is, if somebody has 2 ducks and a cat they bring a carrier group, 10 planes and they bring what 4 or 5? remember deploying those things cost a pretty penny.

As you are well aware there is a tiny difference between attempting to invade Grenada and invading Iraq.

[Pavulon]

133. Nope

Take off from Missouri and the task CAP from conus and kill the whole shooting match on the ground at night, ala 1973. Refuel, go home. No need for a carrier at that close range. 2500 miles is like skipping a rock across a lake.

Use cruisers to maintain cap, if it takes off shoot it down. 300 mile range on the standard3.

You think these guys are going to fight the USAF at night. Nope.

24 jets make no difference in this imaginary war.

If you are Colombia this matters a bit more.

Again this is all over an imagined threat.

[Flanker]

145. Hardly, you cannot sustain a CAP over 3 K miles, that is absurd

Also you have to remember it is a CAP over areas not lines. AND it would be MORE expensive if it is tried. Fuel costs alone would be incredible, not to mention higher number of fighters in flight at any given moment.

Logistics is inversely proportional to distance square.

And even if it were posible it jives with the ruling Powel doctrine of overwhelming force. They did the same in Iraq and they had no air force. At least these planes have BVR R-77s

With new equipment it would require a considerable force build up.

[Pavulon]

162. Half trillion a year

more expensive is not a problem. Cap can be sustained with kc-135 (which operated out of spain in GW1 to refuel b-52's) fueling jets working in CONJUNCTION with awacs, and aegis cruisers that can kill targets 300 miles inland. That ability to coordinate systems makes a first world system. 24 expensive russian jets makes a 3rd world airforce.

With the new equipment it would require the 509th to look at satellite photos. Arm the b-2 with jdam munitions. Fly from whiteman, with a full bomb load and kill the aircraft on the ground, kill the crew, and kill the control system. F117's refueled can destroy fixed radar. Cant kill what you cant see.

No one knows there is an attack until the planes are burning and the crew is pink mist. 2500 miles is within the operational range of f class jets, never mind the b class bombers (can fly from whiteman to Venezuela and back on one fuel load).

I am ignoring the operational f-22, it can fly supersonic from virginia, refuel, operate with impunity over any airspace, out turn, out haul, any soviet era airframe. And fly home in time for beers and the daily show. (2 -3 hour flight, 10 min over target dropping 1000lb bombs on parked jets)

We are not discussing a full war, just wiping out air defense. That could EASILY be done from the CONUS with refueling and flying assets out of florida.

This is not reality as the US has no plan or reason to attack a 3rd world petro state over 24 jet planes.

The jets are a biggus dickus move aimed at SA states. They make jack shit of a difference in any us operations.

[Flanker]

176. Hardly, again if the government goes ahead with fully upgrading the Suhoy

The F-22 can be tracked+locked at around 100 Km, the Russians have very high tech stuff nowadays. An air assault with stealth bombers without escorts and without taking out state of the art SAMs and Flankers would not be a good idea.

[ProudDad]

146. Damn

I love your posts!

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[TankLV]

35. So? What's your point - they have every reason to be concerned and his actions are legal & logical

considering how threatening the US is under the WAR CRIMINALS...

I fully support his actions and would be concerned if he DIDN'T do what he is now doing...

[IndianaGreen]

48. Who would want their country to end up liberated like Iraq is today?

I wouldn't wish the fate of Iraq to Venezuela, or to Cuba, or to any other country in America's crosshairs.

Chavez is doing what any prudent national leader should do when threatened by a more powerful neighbor. He is buying deterrence and in doing so, he is saving lives.

[madrchsod]

53. whether or not chavez is the savior of his people

is for time to tell but at least for now he does offer them hope of a better future. if he does`t deliver they will rid themselves of him. personally i think we should care more about our future instead of worrying about theirs

[ret5hd]

57. hey madrchsod...what's that jpg from?

[madrchsod]

58. another inquiry on that picture..here ya go

http://www.markryden.com/
Mark Ryden

this picture is in gallery three

it`s an album cover art for the band-i think-lipstick lesbians

[ProudDad]

63. Gee, let's do the math

U.S. military spending: over $4000 per person for 2 years

Venezuela Military spending: $60 per person for 2 years

Number of repuke sponsored coups in U.S. since 2000: 2 (both 'elective', minimum arms involvement)

Number of repuke sponsored coups in Venezuela since 2000: 1 armed - defeated by the people

As usual, it looks like Chavez is under-reacting to the level of provocation.

[redqueen]

95. Nice analysis.

:thumbsup:

[USA No. 1]

70. Who would've ever thought we would ever be in this position?

Now Venezuela is our enemy? Hurry up 08.

[Pavulon]

75. Only Hugo..

The pentagon has no interest in a war with a major petro supplier. I mean he is like the uncle who yells and screams you for walking on the grass but gives you nice things at Christmas.

He pimps a war to have something to talk about in a red shirt. Gotta have an enemy. Nationalism gets votes.

Just because we don't sell them weapons doesn't mean they hate us so much that they stop taking the billions in oil money. I mean it would cost much more to send that oil all the way to china.

How else would they pay for the animal farm without a sugar daddy?

[EFerrari]

80. Yeah. The Pentagram has no interest. That's why they tried to

oust him in 2002,(but, whoops! There were journalists in the house!)

http://www.chavezthefilm.com/index_ex.htm

[Pavulon]

101. So why

is he still alive. Pretty sure someone could have popped his grape if the CIA was just standing there..

Like I said, the planes are irrelevant to the US.

[ProudDad]

106. He's alive because he's a brilliant, sincere guy

He talked with the soldiers who were holding him. He educated them about the Bolivarian revolution. He convinced them that he was THEIR president not the president of the oligarchy. He educated them about where their class interest lay and that it was NOT with the rich bastards who had stolen their country from them.

It was AMAZING...

So, when the people took back their government, the soldiers returned Sr. Chavez to the people instead of turning him over to the oligarchs or the CIA.

It's all here: http://tinyurl.com/yqphy2

[EFerrari]

109. Exactly. n/t

[Pavulon]

115. If it were a cia agent

standing there he would have been shot in the head, twice.

Nice touching story, we have been killing people for a while. Overthrowing governments is not a new thing for the CIA. If there was an agent there he would not have gotten all weepy, he would have collected his check and punched the guys ticket.

Sounds like an internal struggle to me. I am sure the CIA left conclusive proof of its involvement. Or is Venezuela hiding it, to risk embarrassment to mr bush?

[Judi Lynn]

118. Apparently we're not to believe the CIA is skilled in COVERT OPS.

Overt ops, of course, would lose some Republican Presidents some elections, and their party future elections, and they know it.

The last thing in the world the CIA would be interested in, apparently, as you explain it, is remaining invisible. That's not the way it happened with Nixon's destabilization and theft of Allende's government and life:

The hand of the CIA in the coup of '73,
ignored by the press in the United States

by Jim Cason and David Brooks

Cason and Brooks are correspondents for the Mexican newspaper La Jornada. This report first appeared on October 21, 1998.


The news of the arrest of Augusto Pinochet in London has been spread widely in the United States. While the New York Times promoted a legal process against the dictator, The Wall Street Journal asserted that Fidel Castro, and not Pinochet, should be arrested in Europe, since he bears the entire blame for the creation of Latin American dictatorships. Nevertheless, no one mentioned a key fact in this story of Chile and Pinochet: the hand of the United States.

The United States media has given ample coverage to Pinochet's detention on October 16. The dictator's career of repression during his regime was recounted but, with few exceptions (those that merely point out that the United States endorsed the coup) no mention is made of Washington's hardly disguised hand in the events of September of 1973, and during the following 17 years of dictatorship.

"To make the economy scream," wrote Richard Helms, at the time director of the CIA, in a memorandum dated September 15, 1970, during a meeting with President Richard Nixon and the Secretary of State, Henry Kissinger.

A cable from the CIA dated a month later, declassified and published by the National Security Archives in September, defined the strategy to be followed by the CIA chief in Santiago: "It is our firm and lasting policy that Allende be overthrown by a coup. We have to continue generating the maximum pressure to this end using all appropriate measures. It is imperative that these actions be carried out in a clandestine and safe way, so that the hand of the United States government stay well hidden."
(snip)

http://isla.igc.org/Features/Chile/chile4.html

[Pavulon]

120. See South Vietnam president

he was willed dead in Washington and was dead shortly there after. We have plenty of practice killing communists in south america. Common practice in the 80's. This was a cross isle thing. Not a single party ideal.

If the cia intended chavez dead they would have a parade for him.

So all the coup talk and cia is innuendo. No proof. Just hunches.

If you have a memorandum from this century regarding murdering chavez that would be pertinent.

[Judi Lynn]

121. As you know, or should know, information is never declassified for decades.

Speaking of skillful cia killings, DU'ers are aware of the multitude of times they attempted to kill Fidel Castro. Please turn down the hot air, it's getting a little stuffy around here.

With any luck, it's going to be a lot harder for them to snuff people they don't like in the future. Contrary to what truly delusional, angry right-wingers think, the world is NOT truly yours to rape at will.

Latin America is learning from past experiences and understands very well American right-wing pResidents have divided and crushed before, and they are probably going to pull together in the future, with a few corrupt exceptions.

[Pavulon]

123. Read up

it was American foreign policy in the 70s and 80's. Funded by congress. Both parties participated in funding the CIA in multiple theaters. We killed communists in Greece, killed them dead. They were the enemy.

Don't rewrite history.

Venezuela is a petro state playing animal farm with American money.

My ideal resolution would be America using our renewable resources to fund our energy demands.

That one is very difficult for any sane person to argue against.

[Judi Lynn]

132. Who around here has argued against renewable resources?

There are without a doubt right-wingers who don't see it as a problem, but they know better than to yammer about it on a Democratic message board.

Actually, it was REPUBLICAN right-wingers who initiated the truly filthy work done by this country in the Western Hemisphere, no matter who in Congress agreed to sign on funding for the CIA. The CIA was taking its orders from right-wing assholes during the truly unforgivable, unconscionable bloodbaths.

"They were the enemy?" Even Henry Kissinger recognizes how stupid that is. He has attempted to explain his behavior in an apologetic sense in front of cameras from time to time, and he can only lament that that's the way the world looked back then, and he does NOT even attempt to call the helpless victims they slaughtered "the enemy."

As nasty as he is, he is at least a little more sophisticated than that.

[Pavulon]

136. See any historical text on the subject

and read up on the CIA under Kennedy. It did its job. It killed soviet agents and overthrew the governments set up by the USSR. I can sugar coat language but that is the reality. Those agencies kill people and pay for people to be killed. That is a reality. The USSR did and is still doing the same thing (under different management). Every first world nation has some form of this. MI6 buries people too.

The comities were briefed about cia operations. Presidential orders were given. People paying knew what was being done.

You think LBJ was clean?

Right and wrong are not what I am discussing.

[Judi Lynn]

138. LBJ was an aberration. Not a traditional Democrat, by any means.

The Cuba thing was prepared and foisted off on Kennedy by the Eisenhower administration, which had "exiles" training for the invasion in some Central American (I could find it in a search if it is important) country before Kennedy was elected.

I just read recently a poster's comments about Robert Kennedy and his regrets which surfaced after the Bay of Pigs, and it is known, now, that Kennedy sent his aide, Richard Goodwin to secret meetings with Cuban officials, including Che Guevara, and they were planning to bring Cuba "into the orbit," immediately before he was killed.

Even ABC news reporter, Lisa Howard got caught up in it, and carried messages between Castro and Kennedy. Here's a link to more information. This comes from a program which runs periodically on the Discovery Channel:

Kennedy Sought Dialogue with Cuba

INITIATIVE WITH CASTRO ABORTED BY ASSASSINATION,
DECLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS SHOW

Oval Office Tape Reveals Strategy to hold clandestine Meeting in Havana; Documents record role of ABC News correspondent Lisa Howard as secret intermediary in Rapprochement effort

Posted - November 24, 2003Washington D.C. - On the 40th anniversary of the assassination of John F. Kennedy, and the eve of the broadcast of a new documentary film on Kennedy and Castro, the National Security Archive today posted an audio tape of the President and his national security advisor, McGeorge Bundy, discussing the possibility of a secret meeting in Havana with Castro. The tape, dated only seventeen days before Kennedy was shot in Dallas, records a briefing from Bundy on Castro's invitation to a U.S. official at the United Nations, William Attwood, to come to Havana for secret talks on improving relations with Washington. The tape captures President Kennedy's approval if official U.S. involvement could be plausibly denied.

The possibility of a meeting in Havana evolved from a shift in the President's thinking on the possibility of what declassified White House records called "an accommodation with Castro" in the aftermath of the Cuban Missile Crisis. Proposals from Bundy's office in the spring of 1963 called for pursuing "the sweet approach…enticing Castro over to us," as a potentially more successful policy than CIA covert efforts to overthrow his regime. Top Secret White House memos record Kennedy's position that "we should start thinking along more flexible lines" and that "the president, himself, is very interested in ." Castro, too, appeared interested. In a May 1963 ABC News special on Cuba, Castro told correspondent Lisa Howard that he considered a rapprochement with Washington "possible if the United States government wishes it. In that case," he said, "we would be agreed to seek and find a basis" for improved relations.
(snip/...)

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB103/

[Pavulon]

139. You are missing the point

yes LBJ was a fuck up. However the CIA was funded and will continue to be funded to take clandestine actions in the interest of the united states. It worked under all administrations. They all guide it.

Key people are and were briefed on CIA operations.

CIA operations do not go on without limited oversight.

I am not prepared to go into the massive history of cia operations in LA and the Former commblock nations on this thread but they were extensive and at times violent. As were the oppositions.

[Judi Lynn]

140. Ah, HAH! I just discovered Reagan's Deputy press secretary was forced to lie, and resigned because

he lost his credibility and was deeply embarrassed.

Found this item snuffling around for more information on Cuba, and ran across this great info. on Reagan's great Grenada adventure, ( :sarcasm: ) which I have NEVER heard before now. This concerns Reagan's GREAT LIE put forth about the urgent reason to invade Grenada, and the fact his people were pushed into supporting this lie, themselves, just like Colin Powell did, when he set forth to make a colossal fool of himself at the U.N.:

The issue of press restriction and exclusion also created turmoil within the Reagan administration. White House Press Spokesman Larry Speakes was not informed about the invasion until right after it began. This caused problems when on October 24, CBS correspondent Bill Plante was tipped off about the impending military operation. He immediately went to Speakes for confirmation. The Press Spokesman, who had heard nothing of this, checked the rumor with administration officials, came back in ten minutes and said, "Plante, no invasion of Grenada. Preposterous. Knock it down hard." The next day when Speakes found out that he had been lied to, and subsequently misled the press, he was furious and allegedly threatened to resign. He complained bitterly in a memo to senior White House aides that he could have kept the secret without telling an outright lie, and that "the credibility of the Reagan administration is at stake." Les Janka, the Deputy White House Press Secretary for Foreign Affairs did, in fact, turn in his resignation three days after the invasion saying, "Withholding and protecting sensitive information is something experienced press officers know how to do, but lying to the media, even unwittingly, is a cardinal sin against credibility... With my institutional authority undermined and my personal integrity under challenge, I saw no choice but to resign."

Finally, on Thursday, October 27, the first group of journalists landed on Grenada. These members of the networks, major news magazines, and three daily newspapers were taken on a "carefully guided group tour... no procedure had been set up for them to go very far; no troops or transport were available to get them around the island or to the units in action." They were allowed to stay on the island one day, and the next day a new pool replaced them. Though the media were finally being admitted to the island, these first small groups of reporters were essentially held captive by U.S. forces at Grantley Adams airport. ABC reporter Mark Scheerer described his experience:

Observation deck open to public, forbidden to photographers and video crews, U.S. military personnel walking around main terminal wouldn't talk; no officers or spokespeople accessible... Access through gate at the end of airport is denied to media. Apart from setting up TV cameras outside fence on nearby bluff and shooting with telephoto at planes coming and going, there's little reporters can do.

Thomas Ricks, whose pool finally arrived in Grenada on Saturday, October 29, had similar experiences trying to get a story for his newspaper. Whenever he wandered away from the pool and asked soldiers questions, the response was invariably, "Can't talk about it."
(snip/...)

http://www.naparstek.com/thetortoise/thesis/chap2.htm

Don't thank me for providing this information. I was more than glad to do it. :woohoo:

[Pavulon]

161. USA Todat vs FP magazine.

everyone knows we went there to kill Cuban communists, and disrupt their government. Not to rescue medical students. This is clear to all but the USA Today crowd. We overthrow governments.

You see a recurring theme. We killed communist and their puppet governments in the cold war. We paid to have them killed in other countries. We bled them in Afghanistan by funneling arms through the ISI that CIA purchased.

"Charlie Wilson's War" is a great and balanced book on that topic.

The opposition bled us in Vietnam by funding and arming the opposing force.

Again I am not trying to debate the merit of these actions only that they are long running actions funded by congress.

[ProudDad]

149. Can you clarify for me

It really sounds like you admire and condone what the CIA did.

Is that true?

[Flanker]

150. It appears he is always arguing realpolitik

What I do not understand is why such a cool and calculating person could let Chavez get under his skin :lol:

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

151. Don't you get it? He doesn't give a fuck about Chavez. He has to remind us

of that every time he shows up foaming at the mouth about Chavez.

[Bridget Burke]

158. Yet he's filled with compassion for the downtrodden Venezuelan Poor!

Quite versatile.

[Pavulon]

165. Britney Spears gets under my skin

because she is always grabbing bullshit press. Chavez has the same agent. You guys take this personally, this is a coffee shop conversation..

O don't make policy, neither do you (probably) so lets not make more if these discussions that they really are.

[Judi Lynn]

172. Britney Spears, J. Edgar Hoover. Separated at birth?

It's always a surprise to see posters referring again and again to idiot entertainers in a political forum, isn't it?

There is a lounge here where you may throw darts, and discuss your favorite singer even more. I've noticed there are a few posters, anti-Chavez, who seem to have a more physical perspective on the man, corporally, graphic, as it were. I'd hate to follow them around if they were dogs. Suggesting he shave his whatsthisallaboutnow is a first, even among that group.

[Pavulon]

163. In Greece

yes. They prevented a communist expansion. Greece is a free nation because of what they did in conjunction with CIA assets. They provide a necessary service. Someone has to haul garbage. That means killing people.

In SA there is not enough REAL non speculative information to evaluate. Evaluating cold war tactics without enough real information is pointless. Once more data comes out through FIFA there is abetter chance to make an informed decision.

The CIA is not an evil organization. It is a fractious long term player in us policy that has been involved in massive successed and equally massive failures.

[ProudDad]

147. Those "communists" in Greece

were MY friends. It was the Greek generals who were MY enemy.

Try learning some history before you begin re-writing it.

My ideal resolution would be that America uses its resources for good, including REAL alternative, non-corporate energy research, instead of the lousy war budget.

[Pavulon]

166. The US used assets

in Greece to upset communist (USSR backed) moves into the government. That is fact. Those moves involved violence on BOTH sides. Hence cold war.

I made an informed observation as to the outcome of that conflict. Greece is nat a failed former commblock state. That is good.

I know the history, I have plenty of time in transit, I don't read ayne Ann Krentz Nora Roberts/J.D. Robb Julie Garwood or Linda Howard.

We can both be informed and reach different conclusions.

[ProudDad]

141. In case you haven't heard

It's illegal for the CIA to assasinate world leaders. I'm talking about the U.S. sponsered aircraft that was apparently standing by -- waiting for what? It is MY guess that it was CIA. Hell, it might have been Chevron's corporate jet...

That doesn't mean the CIA haven't tried assasination anyway. That gang that can't shoot straight has been trying to get Fidel for 48 years.

If you were a CIA agent I think you'd be just as incompetent as they have proved themselves to be....

As for your last sentence, it's ludicrous to think that Sr. Chavez would "hide CIA involvement" in Venezuela's affairs or that Sr. Chavez would not want to embarrass bush.

On edit: some links:

Documents Show CIA Knew of Venezuela Coup
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1203-09.htm

Bush Administration Behind
Failed Military Coup in Venezuela
http://www.projectcensored.org/publications/2004/12.html

The CIA Was Involved In the Coup Against Venezuela's Chavez
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1321

Venezuela coup linked to Bush team
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,688071,00.html



I wish we had a free press with balls in this country...

[Pavulon]

167. That is what they say

but I am pretty sure it can be arranged.

So if he is not hiding CIA involvement, he should produce evidence to back up his claims.

If you come up with a FIFA document stamped declassified, that would be a great source. The above listed are not speculation.

[Flanker]

177. It is kinda like asking for a confession

We will pick up this discussion in 3 decades.

[ProudDad]

105. No offence

But most of your post makes no sense... :shrug:

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

82. LAT:"Noguera also was accused of playing host to men accused of plotting to kill Venezuelan Presid

President Hugo Chavez."

Sources in the prosecutor's office told The Times that four separate investigations were examining Noguera's tenure at the DAS, including alleged actions against labor leaders. Investigators believe he operated under orders from paramilitary chief Rodrigo Tovar, alias "Jorge 40."

Other charges being investigated include electoral fraud during the 2002 presidential vote and administrative corruption in connection with the destruction of criminal records and arrest orders targeting suspected drug traffickers.

Many of the charges were made public by the former DAS data processing chief, Rafael Garcia, who has been charged with corruption, but has said he acted on Noguera's instructions. The case against Noguera was opened last April based on Garcia's testimony.

Opposition political leaders say 20 officials, including members of Congress, are being investigated by the prosecutor's office and the Supreme Court, which is charged with inquiries involving lawmakers.


http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-fg-colombia23feb23,1,3783018.story?coll=la-news-a_section

[EFerrari]

83. No one could ever have imagined that Chavez would be a target

for the BFEE

http://www.chavezthefilm.com/index_ex.htm

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

84. Not only have I seen it. I've made sure a lot of people do as well. n/t

[EFerrari]

85. Good for you.

:)

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

86. This whole thing is getting very interesting.

http://www.ciponline.org/colombia/blog/archives/000242.htm

[EFerrari]

88. It's our mirror image, only with greener foliage and more colorful birds.

:(

[Judi Lynn]

90. Absolutely superior bit of writing, and thank you, G.W.Cgood!

An invaluable quote appears:

A hit on Chávez?

Though he offers few details, citing concerns about his security, García has told Colombia’s press that “there existed a destabilization plan against the Venezuelan government, and there are many Colombian government people involved.”

Danilo Anderson
García contends that Noguera and others were drawing up plans to kill high officials in the Venezuelan government, including leftist President Hugo Chávez. His allegations recall the 2004 arrest of 114 Colombian men at a compound near Caracas, a combination of young campesinos from Norte de Santander department and paramilitaries from the Jorge 40'sNorthern Bloc. At the time, Chávez described the Colombians’ presence as part of a plot to kill him.

Six months after that episode, Venezuela was shaken by the assassination of prosecutor Danilo Anderson, the first such attack the country had seen in over thirty years. Last November a Colombian man, identifying himself as a demobilized paramilitary member who served the DAS as an intelligence source, told Venezuelan authorities that Noguera had advance knowledge of a plan to kill high-ranking Venezuelan officials like Anderson and President Chávez. García’s testimony lends credibility to this witness’s story. Venezuelan authorities also claim that “Jorge 40” paid a visit to Maracaibo, Venezuela, to meet with anti-Chávez figures.
(snip)

Almost as much information as you would expect to get from a CNN news broadcast, right? Ah, ha ha ha ha ha.

We all read about catching the over 100 paramilitaries back when it happened. Seeing it mentioned here adds depth, for sure. I remember that they were caught through a tip-off from an informant, and found on the ranch of Roberto Alonso, a Cuban Venezuelan opposition member, living next door to Gustavo Cisneros (fishing buddy of _{George H. W. Bush} and media magnate) whose sister is Cuban American movie actress, Maria Conchita Alonso.





Roberto Alonso, Maria Conchita Alonso, Colombian paramilitaries in Venezuela

[dysfunctional press]

87. and how does their military spending compare to that of the u.s....?

...thought so.

[SoCalDemGrrl]

89. Is anyone surprised? Chavez is doing what anyone would do if threatened..

Bush has created a worldwide climate of fear. The U.S. is now a

Bully nation that is saber rattling 24/7.

What Chavez is doing is arm himself (his country) against the schoolyard bully.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

92. Iran spends that little? Gee, they're toast. -nt

[Judi Lynn]

94. Venezuela initials USD 3.5 billion oil deal in Japan

Caracas, Friday February 23 , 2007

Venezuela initials USD 3.5 billion oil deal in Japan

Japanese firms Marubeni and Mitsui Friday announced an agreement with Venezuelan oil holding Pdvsa to import crude oil for the next 15 years, news agency Kyodo reported.

The two Japanese oil traders expect to purchase some 20,000-30,000 bpd under the first oil supply agreement between Japanese firms and a South American oil supplier ever.

Ninety percent of Japanese hydrocarbon imports come from the Middle East, but Japan wants to diversify oil suppliers and thus curb dependence on this region -which is marked by political instability, Efe reported.

Payments will be made through two firms Marubeni and Mitsui have organized in the Netherlands. These firms are applying for a USD 3.5 billion loan from a banking holding including the Bank of Japan for International Cooperation and other banks.
(snip/...)

http://english.eluniversal.com/2007/02/23/en_eco_art_23A838413.shtml
(opposition newspaper)

[Rex]

110. 4 billion vs 600 billion?

:eyes:

[legerdemain]

111. Chavez's real intention

Anybody that thinks this is a serious defensive move against American aggresion and not a regional power play is naive or just lying to themselves.

Senor Chavez is just a simple minded attention whore and starting a South American arms race is a great way to keep his name in the paper.

[Jax]

114. welcome to DU

What Democratic values brought you here?

[ProudDad]

116. Check your facts, newbie

Military Spending 2005:

Columbia (U.S. Proxy): $3.5 Billion
Venezuela: $1.6 Billion

Who started the South American arms race???



On edit: Interesting:

World $950 billion 2004 est.

Rest-of-World $500 billion 2004 est.

United States $466 billion FY04 actual
China $65.0 billion 2004
Russia $50.0 billion
France $45.0 billion 2005
United Kingdom $42.8 billion 2005 est.
Japan $41.75 billion 2007
Germany $35.1 billion 2003
Italy $28.2 billion 2003
South Korea $21.1 billion 2003 est.
India $19.0 billion 2005 est.
Saudi Arabia $18.0 billion 2005 est.
Turkey $12.2 billion 2003



Note 4 - Non-US aggregate real expenditure on arms worldwide in 2004 remained at approximately the 1998 level, about half a trillion dollars. US spending increased from about $280 billion to about $470 billion.


Note 6 - The fiscal year (FY) 2004 Department of Defense (DoD) budget request was $379.9 billion in discretionary budget authority -- $15.3 billion above FY 2003. The fiscal 2004 National Defense Authorization Act, passed by Congress 07 November 2003, authorizes DoD to spend $401.3 billion. The fiscal 2004 Defense Appropriations Act, which actually provides the money, became law 30 September 2003.

On April 16, 2003 President Bush signed the FY2003 $79 billion wartime supplemental to cover the needs directly arising from Operation Iraqi Freedom and the reconstruction of Iraq. The Defense Department received $62.6 billion as a result of the emergency supplemental bill.

On Nov. 6, 2003 President Bush signed the FY2004 $87.5 billion supplemental appropriations bill for military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. The bill provides $64.7 billion for military operations in Iraq, in Afghanistan and elsewhere, including about $51 billion is for Operation Iraqi Freedom, and $10 billion for Operation Enduring Freedom. The remaining $22.8 billion in non-DOD monies will cover costs with Operation Noble Eagle and support for allies in the war on terror.



What a F*cking waste!!!!

[rman]

160. And we should believe you,

why?

[ProudDad]

112. Here is some interesting information

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1651

Myth Busting – How Much Money Does Venezuela Really Get From Oil?

"Now, if we add these estimated number for 2004 and 2005 to the $56 billion earned through 2003 by the government we see that total oil revenues for the Chavez administration have been $101.5 billion dollars for an average annual oil income over 7 years of $14.5 billion. On a per capita basis this is $580 per person per year – less than two dollars per person per day!!! This should clearly dispel the notion that Venezuela is awash in petro-dollars. What is more, that Venezuela has, with such limited resources, managed to create a rapidly growing economy, significantly reduce poverty, cure social ills such as illiteracy, undertaken needed infrastructure projects and even provide aid to other countries shows how well indeed the Chavez administration has utilized Venezuela’s resources."

[Selatius]

152. Venezuela has virtually NO AIR FORCE LEFT.

The US stopped selling spare parts for American-made warplanes in Venezuela's air force, so they have to virtually replace the entire air force by spending hundreds of millions to billions of dollars replacing the equipment entirely.

American warplanes they have:

F-5 Tiger A: 12
F-5 Tiger B: 4
N/F-5 A/B Tiger: 5
F-16 A Fighting Falcon: 18
F-16 B Fighting Falcon: 4

The only non-American warplane they have are French Mirages, and they only have 16 of those. They have to replace nearly all their American warplanes by purchasing Su-30 MK warplanes from Russia, and they're not cheap.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/venezuela/airforce-equipment.htm

Iran could take out Venezuela's air force at the current rate it's so inadequate if they were next to each other.

[Pavulon]

168. The expense will continue in the form

of parts, and all new weapons systems. None of the weapon systems from those aircraft will be usable by a Russian jet. Maybe that is why gas jumped a dime, they figured out they have to buy all new loadouts. (kidding about the price jump)

[ileus]

175. poor little paranoid chavez

[daleo]

178. Yikes, Chavez is spending nearly 1% of what the U.S. does on defense

Clearly, he intends to invade Miami.

[MGD]

183. More likely, he intends to set himself up as king shit regional dictator forever