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Serbs tell America - Hands off Kosovo (Protests outside of US embassy in Belgrade)

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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-27-07 11:50 AM
Original message
Serbs tell America - Hands off Kosovo (Protests outside of US embassy in Belgrade)
BELGRADE, Feb 27 (Reuters) - Some 15,000 Serbs protested outside the U.S. embassy in Belgrade on Tuesday to denounce a Western-backed plan to give independence to the Albanian majority of Serbia's breakaway Kosovo province.

Some carried banners urging "Russia, Use Your Veto" to block the proposal at the United Nations Security Council. Cardboard cut-outs of Russian President Vladimir Putin and Chinese leader Hu Jintao bobbed above the crowd.

The rally was the second protest organised by hardline nationalists outside the U.S. mission in three months.

Serb civil servants in Kosovo, who answer to Belgrade, were given the day off and schools were closed so that all who wanted to could travel to the capital for the protest.

"Kosovo is the foundation and soul of Serbia," Kosovo Serb political leader Milan Ivanovic said from a stage opposite the embassy. "We appeal to the world not to carve up Serbia."

more:http://mobile.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L27539486.htm
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BayCityProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-27-07 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. Sadly
the former Yugoslavia is now a complete mess...
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-27-07 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Perhaps the Serbs should give up killing their neighbors.
Nah. Forget I said it.
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youngdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-27-07 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. That's crazy talk. Next, you'll suggest that the Palestinians and Israeli's chill out
How embarrassingly pragmatic of you.

:sarcasm:


Occam's razor, no?

Saddest to me here is that the Serbs are no doubt emboldened to protest after watching us fall on our face in Iraq and Afghanistan. Our occupation has been relatively quiet and very successful (while Clinton was in office) but has been neglected since, seemingly out of spite of the Clintons by Bushco. They are such children.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
21. I was just wondering that the other day....
... I wonder when Kosovo is going to explode in violence again, now that we're unable to do anything to stop it.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-27-07 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
4. Good For Them! n/t
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-27-07 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
5. Serbians have no right to complain.
They were the ones who were slaughtering Albanians and Bosnians in the 90s. If Russia uses it's veto I'm going ballistic. Fucking nationalistic fucks.
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-27-07 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Now THERE is a legitimate use of US military force, if they act up again. I don't know if they've
rebuilt their bridges yet, but if so, we should knock the fuckers down again if they jump ugly on this. Their power plants, too, just like before.

Assholes. I guess they don't learn, do they?

Redstone
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BayCityProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-27-07 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. so you support
bombing Serbia for human rights violations, but didn't support attacking Iraq even though he "gased his own people"? Is this because a Dem ordered one and a GOP ordered the other? That's the only difference...
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Nickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-05-07 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. The "saving" Iraqi meme wasn't the reason we were told we were going to Iraq.
We were told that we were going there to protect the US from WMDs. Remember?
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MGD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #6
20. How do you oppose military force in Iraq in one breath and support it in Kosovo/Bosnia in the next?
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-27-07 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Lets get some facts straight.
First, while the Serbian Bosnian did do massacres in Bosnia, the exact nature of what control (if any) Serbia had over those Serbs is questionable. Remember the Bosnian Serbs lived in Bosnia and have for Centuries. This wa the problem with Balkans BEFORE Yugoslavia was ever formed. Yugoslavia was formed after WWI as a combination of Slovens, Croats, Bosnian Muslims, Serbs and Albanians (With some Hungarians and Roma (Gypsies) through into the mix). The Non-Serbs complained the at the pre-WWII Government was to Serbian. Tito's compromise to settle the conflict was to federate Yugoslavia. Tito first did this by cutting back Serbia to the areas where they was few (if Any) non-Serbs. Tito them divided the rest of the Country between the various nationalities, all with significant Serbian Minorities (With the exception of Slovenia). The non-serbs were happy with this for it gave the Croats, Slovenes and Bosnian control over their own people, while the Serbs accepted it for their fellow Serbs outside Serbia were protected by the Federal Government.

This Social Compromise all fell apart once Bosnian and Croatia decided to leave Yugoslavia (The Slovenes also left but had very few Serbs within their borders). The problem was while the Bosnians and Croats from Bosnia and Croats wanted to leave Yugoslavia, the Serbs LIVING IN THOSE STATES DID NOT WANT TO. This was complicated by the fact the groups did NOT live side by side with each other in mixed communities, but lived in different regions of each state (With most Serbs living in area next to Serbia).

Thus what cause the War was NOT the Serbs revolting, but the Croats and Bosnians leaving Yugoslavia WITHOUT Addressing the concern of the the Serbs within their Countries (and this was reinforced by nationalists in Bosnia and Croatia that demanded the expulsion of the Serbs and other minorities from Croatia and Bosnia). Throughout the Bosnian problem NO ONE ADDRESSED the Concern of the Serbs except the Serbs themselves.

Now Technically Serbia stayed out of the War In Bosnia and Croatia (and Croatia technically did the same for Bosnia), but both Croatia and Serbia sent supplies to each side in the fight. Thus you had developed two states within Bosnia, the Bosnia Muslim State tied in with Catholic Croatia, and a Serbian State tied in with Serbia. Neither side recognizing each other which opened the way to the massacres by the Serbs to make their 1/3 of Bosnia almost 100% Serbian. At the end Serbia and Croatia in the Dayton Accords agreed to divide up Bosnia while technically keeping it one state. A lot less blood would have been lost had the Croats and Bosnians considered what the Serbs living in their States wanted. This was OPPOSED by Croatian Nationalist (Many of whom believe the Bosnian Muslims are just Croats of a different Religion as opposed to being a different Nationality).

This was complicated by the Serbs Living in Croatia. Just before the solution of the Problem of Bosnia these Serbs were DRIVEN OUT of their Homes by the Croats. Now you may think that was good, but these were Serbs who have lived in Croats for Centuries and were MILES away from the Conflict in Bosnia, they had NOTHING to do with Bosnia, but the Croats wanted them out of Croatia so they were driven out while World Attention was on Bosnia (The Expulsion of these Serbs may even have convinced the Serbs in Bosnia that they had gained as much land as they could and thus willing to sign a peace treaty).

Now, after the Bosnian situation as resolved, the Albanian in Kosovo revolted. Now Unlike Bosnia and Croatia, Kosovo had NOT been an independent state in the Yugoslavia Federation, but a self-governing region within Serbia. While the Kosovo Albanians were Sunni Moslems like the Bosnian Muslims, there was a Fundamental Difference between the Albanians and Bosnian Moslems. The main Difference is the Bosnian were Southern Slavs who had Converted to being Moslem while the Albanians are an ancient people who have lived in the Balkans since before the Roman Empire (and embraced Islam, because the Serbs were Orthodox). Remember while while there are other differences between the Croats, Serbs, and Bosnian Muslims. the main Difference is the Croats are Southern Slavs who are Catholic and have had Connection with Germany and the West for Centuries, the Serbs are Orthodox and connection was with Constantinople and Greece for Centuries and the Moslem Bosnians had been Christian Heretics in the Middle Ages who converted to Islam as the Turks expanded their empire into the Balkans.

The key is to remember the Serbs, Croats and Bosnian are all Southern Slavs who speak variation of each other languages, thus you have intercommunication between them. The Albanians speak a complexly different Language and who embraced Islam to justify their attacks on the Serbs (Before the Turkish Conquest the Albanians appears to have been Catholic, but directly tied to Rome NOT via Germany like the Croats and Slovenes). Thus the Albanians tend NOT to interact with the Serbs. Once the Bosnia War was over, Serbia decided to crack down on attacks on Serbian Holy Sites in Kosovo, this lead to further attacks on Serbs and Roma living in Kosovo (Yes the Serbs PROTECTED the Roma from attacks by the Albanian Natives of Kosovo). As this war increased in tempo, Clinton decided to tell Serbia to leave the Albanians Kosovans alone. When the President of Serbia REFUSED, the Air War Started. After a couple Months of Fighting the Serbs agreed to pull their troops out of Kosovo AS LONG AS THE US AGREED THAT Kosovo STAYED PART OF SERBIA. That is the Situation at the Present time. US peace keepers protecting Serbs and Roma from attacks by Kosovo Albanians, the Albanians ruling Kosovo, but Serbia saying Kosovo is still part of Serbia (A real mess).

As to Slobodan Milošević, what role, if any, he played in Bosnia is in Dispute, He claims he had little of no Control over the Serbs in Bosnia but just acted as their agent in Dayton. This is supported by people who knew him (While others said since he was President of Serbia he was responsible). When he lost office, the person he lost to attacked him FROM THE RIGHT as NOT having done enough to stop the "lost" of Kosovo and to support the Serbs in Bosnia.

Given the above, what happen in Yugoslavia in the 1990s happens to any country where the Social Compact of the Country is torn apart. People tend to revert to tribalism (More for protection then anything else). When the Serbs living outside Serbia Fears were NOT address the revolted to protect themselves. You can NOT expect to take people's rights away without a fight, unless you consider and give them a say in the movement. The Problem was The Croats did NOT want to give in to the Serbs living in Croatia and thus you ended up with Civil War. As to Kosovo, the Serbs believe they have an agreement with the US that Kosovo will stay part of Serbia. The Native Albanians can rule Kosovo but they MUST protect minorities rights (i.e. can NOT discriminate against Serbs and Roma who live in Kosovo). The Serbs fear that if Kosovo is made Independent of Serbia, the remaining Serbs and Roma will be driven out of Kosovo and the historical Serbia landmarks in Kosovo will be destroyed. This is UNACCEPTABLE to the Serbs in Serbia. If Kosovo wanted to be Independent the Government in Kosovo would address these concerns, but has refused. Thus the standoff and the present dispute and why Serbia is asking Russia to Veto any Independence of Kosovo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slobodan_Milo%C5%A1evi%C4%87



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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-27-07 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Srebenica.
Redstone
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-27-07 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Srebenica is NOT a Cause it was a RESULT
What I am trying to state is CAUSATION not RESULT. Srebenica was a Massacre, something I conceded above, my point was to address the CAUSE of the Conflict, not the massacre and other crimes that occurred because the country was in Civil War. For example Custer did not die in the Little Big Horn because the Sioux woke up one day and decided to kill someone, Custer died because he had found gold and people (i.e. White men) wanted the Indian lands and were in the process of taking that land when the Sioux objected to that theft of land.

The same with Srebenica, the men were killed was NOT because the Serbs woke up one day and decided to kill Bosnians, No, the Serbs were ALREADY in a Fight when the massacre occurred. Thus the Massacre is a result of the Causation of the war, and the Causation of the war was the Serbs living in Bosnia objected to Bosnia leaving Yugoslavia AND the Bosnians (and more the Croats who supported the Bosnians) refusing to address the concerns of the Serbs living in Bosnia about leaving Yugoslavia.

War is NEVER nice, look at the massacres US troops are doing in Iraq (We did the same during Vietnam, Korea and even the "Good War" WWII). War is NEVER nice, thus should be avoided, but you can NOT avoid War by ignoring sizable minorities in your own country, and that is what happened in Bosnia and when you do it leads to tension and even fighting, so to avoid such massacre listen to people, even if you oppose to what they are saying and at least try to address their concerns. This should be the lesson of Bosnia, listen and try to address the fears of people who oppose what is being proposed.
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-27-07 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. OK, fine. Defend those murderous thugs all you want. I don't care.
Redstone
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-27-07 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. You must accept the difference between cause and Result.
One of the reason no one believed the Holocaust was occurring was that during WWI English and French Propaganda kept on saying what bad things the Germans were doing ("Bayoneting Belgium Babies" was one of accusations). There were NO truth the the Story, but it had appeal. When it came out it was a LIE, no one wanted to believe such atrocities occurred even when you had evidence of such atrocities, for example the Japanese Brutal Attack on Nanking (Now printed as Nanjing)in 1937. The reports were rejected as to outlandish, no Civilized country would permit tis Soldiers to operate that way.

The same with the Holocaust, reports were rejected for no civilized Country would act that way (And this continued even AFTER the Soviet Union overran the first of the many Death-camps the Red Army liberated, considered Communist propaganda until the Western Armies ran over camps in Germany itself). Thus no one wants to consider that atrocities occur in war, but they do and efforts have to be made that such atrocities do not.

Heat of Battle atrocities occur on every side and in every Army, the real issue is what steps did the Army in question do to make sure such atrocities are NOT done and if done the person who did so are punished? Serbia had no official control over the Serbian Army in Bosnia. Serbia did supply them with supplies and treat their wounded, but control of the Serb Army in Bosnia seems always to have been independent of Serbia (Please note when I am using the Term "Serb" I mean people who are of Serb extraction, when I use the term "Serbia" I mean the Government of Serbia, the Serb Army in question was NOT the Army of Serbia but the Army of the Serbs living in Bosnia).

As to the Serbs IN Bosnia they still are NOT coming forward with ANY of the alleged War Criminals NOR cooperating with the rest of Bosnia. It is Clear the Serbs in Bosnia want to merge with Serbia NOT Bosnia.

My Point is to understand what is Happening right now and what happened in Yugoslavia in the 1990s you MUST understand where BOTH sides were coming from. You can NOT break up a Country without considering the concerns of any sizable minority in that Country. Look at Czechoslovakia, it broke up without fighting do to a willingness by both the Czechs and Slovaks to considered each others concerns. When the Soviet Union Broke up, similar concerns were addressed (For example the Rights of Native Russians in the Ukraine were protected). In some of the former Soviet Republics this is Breaking down (Look at the Baltic Countries where huge prejudice against the Russian Minority in each Country is a hallmark of the County's leadership). The Former Soviet Union has a Greater Chance of Civil War today, then it did in the 1990s for you are seeing less and less tolerance of Minority rights and concerns. The same thing happened in the Formers Yugoslavia, you had a break down in concerns for Minorities and when those minorities though their rights and concerns were NOT being addressed they revolted. Remember it was the SERBS who REVOLTED against the Croats and Bosnians who had voted to leave Yugoslavia. I have to blame the Croats and Bosnian as much as the Serbs for the Subsequent Civil War for neither wanted to consider the concerns of the Serbs who lived in their Countries. You can NOT do that when a country has a sizable minority population.


More on Nanjing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre

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BayCityProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-27-07 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. you are pretty simplistic.
"You are either with us or against us" People on DU do this a lot lately. The above explanation of events is a good one.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-27-07 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. And Probably Much, Much More
that ill-informed people don't know about!
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-27-07 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Such as the expulsion of the Serbs from Krajina.
For more see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Serbian_Krajina

The war was a nasty Civil War, with BOTH sides committing atrocities, the Serbs were no more to blame than the Croats, which is the point I have been trying to make (Along with the need to avoid further bloodshed by addressing the desires of not only the Kosvos Albanians but also of the Serbs living in Kosovo (and the desire of Serbia to protects its historic sites in Kosovo).
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-27-07 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Yes, the Croats were
very much at fault (I wish I still had the link I had, but my Computer had broken down)

Sadly, everyone in the U.S. has been given a very one-sided version of what really happened!
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BayCityProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-27-07 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. Many outsiders
simply wanted an excuse to break Yugoslavia up. A divide and conquer strategy. Look at all the atrocities that have happened in the US that other countries didn't invade us for...or all the other civil wars we have done nothing to prevent. We do it when it serves our interests and then paint one side 100% good and one 100% bad. This is usually never the case.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. And that's exactly what the U.S. did.
Twist the facts and paint one side 100% bad to serve their interests.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-27-07 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. Croatia and Bosnia left the federation because of Milosivic.
Edited on Tue Feb-27-07 10:34 PM by Odin2005
According to the book Postwar: A History of Europe Since 1945 Milosivic wanted to turn Yugoslavia into the "Greater Serbia" of Serbian nationalist dreams. Sure, Tudjman, the Croatian leader, was a bastard, but Slobo and his Serbian Nationalist buddies started the mess.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. Some question on that fact, Milosivic was a Serb nationalist
but he was also a committed Yugoslavian Communist who wanted to keep the Federation Together. Once that was no longer possible then and only then did he started to support Serbs in other parts of Yugoslavia. Now the time difference between these two acts were very close (and in some ways it appears his early support for Serbs was more an effort to blackmail Croatia back into the Federation then a grab for a Greater Serbia).

Thus the problem when it comes to who started what in the Former Yugoslavia. Was it the Serbs who objected to living in a Country where Serbia did not dominate? Was it the Croats who did NOT want to live in a Country dominated by Serbs AND who were NOT willing to provide protection for any minority serbs in their own Country?

The problem was Yugoslavia dissolution occurred WHILE Croatia and Bosnia were going to be independent and while Serbia was trying to to preserve the Social Compact between the nationalities in the form of the Yugoslavia Federation. In affect Serbia was opposing Croatia and Bosnia, but not for a Greater Serbia (Through Croats and Bosnia viewed it that way) but to preserve what the Serbs through was the Social Compact between the Nationalities. You thus had TWO groups talking by each other and refusing to understand what the other was doing (and viewing the other as opposing their plan for the future).

Throughout history when the Social Compact within a people breaks down you have Conflict that is nasty and bloody, for what is being fought over is WHAT will be the relationship between the many sides of the old Order which is being destroyed. In affect WHAT WILL BE THE NEW ORDER? Croatia wanted to ally with the West and Germany (Its historical allies since the Middle Ages) while Serbia wanted to preserve the Yugoslavia Federation. These two dreams of the Future were NOT compatible and thus conflict occurred.

There is NO evidence that Milosivic wanted a Greater Serbia, he wanted to protect Serbs in other states, but his first choice was preservation of Yugoslavia NOT war. Milosivic ended up with war given that no one wanted to solve the problem peacefully. Tudjman wanted Croatia with the borders Tito has Given it, the Serbs Nationalists would NOT agree to that for it put Serbs under the Control of Croats WITHOUT any Rights. People in this Country would revolt if they were consign to permanent minority status as the Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia were about to be assigned.

I am sorry, I understand where Milosivic came from, he had to deal with dissolution of one country and the war to decide what borders would his country have. Neither Milosivic nor Tudjman wanted war, but do to the conflicting situation in Serbia and Croats they ended up at war. A little thinking and talking before hand and a willingness to compromise would have avoided the whole mess, but both sides prefer to fight than to compromise and that is the sad nature of the Dissolution of Yugoslavia.

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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. Actually, I heard the Croatians started it.
This of course was kept quiet. Again, I don't have the frickin' link.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-02-07 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. You are right, Megahurtz! It was the Croatians under Tudjman that began ethnic cleansing
of the Serbians in Croatia. Slobo did his own share of blood spilling, but he was not the one that started the bloodbath.

On a historical note, Serbians were our allies during WWII. They opposed the Nazis. The Croats were very anti-Semitic and they supported Nazi Germany.

On another oddity, the CIA imported Al-Qaeda trained Chechens into Kosovo to boost the ranks of the Kosovo Liberation Army. The KLA's primary mission was to ethnically cleanse the Serbs.

I often wonder if we could have avoided this mess had Serbia been granted her independence by the Austrian-Hungarian empire, instead of treating them like sub-human species.

The history of the Balkans is not a happy one. It is ironic that the only time there was peace and prosperity was under the Communist government of Tito. After Tito's death, all of the nationalist and religious conflicts that had been suppressed by him rose again, to everyone's loss.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-05-07 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Thanks IndianaGreen.
I thought so!
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-05-07 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #7
28. It's Amazing How Much Dis/Misinformation Is Out There
Most people, even here on DU, have no comprehension that there was a lot more going on than "that butcher Slobodan."
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
24. There are no victims in Kosovo.
Just assholes who happen to be losing at the moment. The Albanian Kosovars are murderous thugs who shoot Serbs dead in the street, burn Serb homes, sell Serb girls into sex slavery, blow up thousand year old churches and monastaries, and want to turn Kosovo into some of "racially pure" state. The Serbian Kosovars are murderous thugs who shoot Albanians dead in the street, burn Albanian homes, sell Albanian girls into sex slavery, blow up 500 year old mosques and madrassas, and want to turn Kosovo into some kind of "racially pure" state.

Both sides are scum, and we should have just let Europe deal with it. There are no victims, and no heroes, in that region. Only evil people and those who enable them.
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