Torture like Jack Bauer's would be OK, Bill Clinton says

[Meeker Morgan]

Source: New York Daily News

WASHINGTON - What the nation needs is some good Jack Bauer agents, says Bill Clinton. Bill and Hillary Clinton apparently no longer think torture has a place in U.S. policy, but Bubba sure hopes a "24"-style cowboy steps up if someone ever nabs a terrorist who knows a bomb is about to blow.

"If you're the Jack Bauer person, you'll do whatever you do and you should be prepared to take the consequences," Bill Clinton said yesterday. In Fox's hit show "24," actor Kiefer Sutherland's character Jack Bauer is regularly confronted with the ticking-time bomb scenario - and makes his own rules about how to save the country.

Pointing to the show, Clinton argued on NBC's "Meet the Press" it was better that way because any law that approved torture could be abused. "If you have any kind of a formal exception, people just drive a truck through it, and they'll say, 'Well, I thought it was covered by the exception,'" Clinton said.

"When Bauer goes out there on his own and is prepared to live with the consequences, it always seems to work better," he said.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wn_report/2007/10/01/2007-10-01_torture_like_jack_bauers_would_be_ok_bil.html?ref=rss

---

All right he's not running for anything, but this bothers me a lot.

[ananda]

1. That is so sick.

I think the Clintons have been obscenely tainted
by the wealth and power of the Bush-bergers.

[OKIsItJustMe]

47. Transcript: A conversation with Bill Clinton

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21020060/page/3/

...

OLBERMANN: And one of the participants had a moment last night, had a moment that I think was fairly generally assessed as being a signal moment in this campaign. When pressed about whether or not she was in agreement with a theory, a theoretical that you had addressed on “Meet the Press” a year ago, there was an apparent disagreement between Senator Clinton and you on this point. To which she said, well, he is not standing here right now. What did you think of that?

CLINTON: I loved it. I thought to myself, you know, Tim Russert is a very clever interviewer, he thought that he had trapped her, and instead she made the obvious point that if she is elected, she will be the president, I won’t, she will make the final call, and I completely agree with her about the policy. The United States has to be against terror.

As a matter of fact, what I really was talking about with Tim Russert is what happens when you have people watch “24,” as you know. Jack Bauer always knows the nuclear weapon is going to explode in five minutes and here is a guy who knows what you do.

There is a one in a million chance that happens. But the United States is against torture because it’s illegal, it’s immoral, it doesn’t work and it makes our own soldiers vulnerable to torture.

If that ever happened, the point I was trying to make to Russert, and you or I or anybody else thought a million lives for you beating up this guy, you’d probably do it, but you should know it’s against the law and you should be prepared to take the consequences.

And we shouldn’t ever ask the president of the United States of America to be on the side of torture, illegal, almost always ineffective and makes our own people vulnerable to the same sort of treatment.

...

[Crayson]

95. It's an evil trick question...

No possible answer is good.

"Imagine a ticking nuke in NY city! 10 million dead to be expected. Would you torture the guy who can turn it off?"
What do you answer?
Yes, no, both, run away?

EVERY answer is bullshit, because "30 seconds left, decide now!" scenario is HIGHLY unlikely.

Same question as:
"You can only save one person from a burning house. Which one?"
Father? Mother? Your girlfriend? The baby? The dog? Let them all burn, just to be fair?
There is no politically correct answer.

This situation is only designed to corner Clinton and then say: "AHA! I knew it, you bastard!"

[DS1]

2. Hey Bill?

WHO ARE YOU WORKING FOR?

[MethuenProgressive]

18. Read the story, it's not what the OP says it is.

"Bill and Hillary Clinton apparently no longer think torture has a place in U.S. policy,"

[DS1]

25. Read the story and see what it really is

He's saying it shouldn't be policy, but it's okay if a field agent decides it's necessary.

Copout on the highest order

[MethuenProgressive]

29. "Bill & Hillary Clinton no longer think torture has a place in U.S. policy,"

[DS1]

32. whatever

not worth the time

[paulk]

99. what is worth your time, then?

jumping to conclusions or actually trying to understand something in the context in which it was said?

[rinsd]

101. Yeah not worth the time to get the facts.

What a fucking joke.

[silverojo]

79. Somebody can't get past one misleading sentence n/t

[liberalhistorian]

33. I wonder just

WTF has happened to those two, anyway? I guess money speaks louder than principles to them, after all.

[0rganism]

34. Seems like he's saying it's a crime and the agent should be prosecuted

That's a fair distance from "okay" in my book.

[coalition_unwilling]

59. A "vigilante" by any other name would still stink as bad -n/t

[Solly Mack]

3. ...

...

[bunkerbuster1]

4. So is this even dumber than HRC's 5,000 dollar BAYBEEZ?

Was the race getting to be a bore? Are they trying to spice things up by deliberately doing and saying stupid shit?

[Windy]

5. He's appealing to the Right Wing base who LOVE Jack Bauer!

Its contrived.

Bill and Hillary Like Jack Bauer...they can't be all bad...

My guess is that the Clinton's don't say or do anything without running it by a focus group first.. or at least their handlers. This was said purposefully!

[MethuenProgressive]

19. Somebody, anybody - read the story!!

"Bill and Hillary Clinton apparently no longer think torture has a place in U.S. policy,"

[Cronopio]

28. We have. The response in post #25 pretty much nails it.

Bubba has reverted back to "don't ask, don't tell" mode. One of the reasons he lost my vote in '96.

[MethuenProgressive]

30. "Bill & Hillary Clinton no longer think torture has a place in U.S. policy,"

[DS1]

36. Are you being dense on purpose, or are you always like this?

This isn't a personal attack, I think it's fair to other users to clear this up so we know what to expect in the future

[silverojo]

80. YOU should read beyond that one line n/t

[truthisfreedom]

6. Jack Bauer is a ficticious character, Bill! You don't get a script or storyboard in real life.

What a strange story... what ever happened to "I feel your pain?"

[Karenina]

51. This is VERY DISTURBING.

:scared: The lines between fact and fiction being blurred by such an icon as Bill is informative. Can you spell SELL OUT boys and girls? I KNEW you could.

[coalition_unwilling]

7. If you parse Clinton's words, he is endorsing vigilantism. Reminds

me why I never could stand Clinton, even though I held my nose and voted for him twice becuase the alternatives were clearly so much worse. (I worked as a volunteer for Jesse Jackson in the '92 Wisconsin primary campaign.)

Were H. Rap Brown around today, he could rightly say "torture is as American as apple pie."

[SDuderstadt]

73. Define irony

Looks to me like the New York Daily News already beat you to the punch by parsing Clinton's words to appear to say something they didn't

[Taverner]

8. They're not telling you that the tortured would say anything - - ANYTHING - to make it stop

Which means giving complete BS

Torture is never a reliable way to get info

[knight_of_the_star]

55. That's why the Inquisition had such a high conviction rate

The threat of torture and torture itself will make people say what you want to hear, not exactly what you need to hear.

[Bryn]

64. It helped to spread Christianity worldwide

That's what I think.

[knight_of_the_star]

81. It was more a Catholic Europe thing

Historically the Inquisition never really left Europe.

[iamjoy]

9. We Need A Jack Bauer

who always gets the right guy!

Not a JB who tortures.

[DaHoot]

10. Does anyone else find it unsettling

That so many people who are in charge of this country seem to use the techniques by a fictional tv character as a guideline to what we should do in real life for terrorism and torture? WWJBD?

[spotbird]

13. It's a nightmare

There truly isn't hope. Nothing good will happen next year, that's for damn sure.

[Blue_Tires]

78. welcome to the site!!

[Selatius]

11. The problem is you don't know that the suspect knows where "THE BOMB" is hidden.

So you can go ahead and perform dental torture, water torture, "Palestinian hanging" like what the Israelis utilize, electroshock, power drilling, or any other torture method and still not be guaranteed of getting the information you need. "24" is not realistic at any rate. If life were as neat and packaged as a FOX television plot, yeah, the answers would be simpler, but it's not because life doesn't operate that way.

[Locrian]

94. ding ding ding !!!!

The problem is you don't know that the suspect knows where "THE BOMB" is hidden

EXACTLY!!! Its a false logic trap. On TEEVEE you KNOW the bad guy has planted the bomb etc. So when the question is "would you torture to save lives when you **know** the person can give you info" it is FLAWED.

How about THIS question: you have a room full of ordinary people. Men, women, childen. You THINK that one of them knows info that could save lives. Do you torture them? Some of them? Not so simple an answer now huh?

[spotbird]

12. Torture doesn't work

These supposedly smart people know that, so why do they pretend otherwise?

[spirald]

14. Uhh, I saw this- Bill was actually opposing torture

I watched this segment- Bill was basically saying that a law or directive that approved torture in limited situations would be wrong, because then people would make up contrived excuses to torture, and we end up with Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib.

What he was saying is that if an agent thought he was in the "1 in a million" "Jack Bauer" case where torture would cause someone to give up information (ie. person with weak convictions who knew of a plot but valued his life more), the agent will need to risk his own prosecution, presumably for kidnapping, assault and possibly homocide, to do the deed.

He's pretty much saying that we shouldn't support torture, and even in the infinitesimally small case that it might actually work, the agent will be personally responsible for their actions.

What he has done is to oppose torture and, at the same time, provide a solid answer to this administration's primary justification scenario- "what if the terrorist knows where the bomb's going to go off in 6 hours"- lifted straight from 24.

Our answer to Republicans who use this scenario as a way to provide legal loopholes to torture is "In the obscure case that it may work, a dedicated agent who feels strongly that it is the right thing to do in a given situation should have no problem putting their own ass on the line", knowing full well that the cowards who engage in institutionalized torture at the aforementioned institutions will never put their own ass on the line.

[rodeodance]

20. Yes, I watched it also. The story in IP is wrongly parsing words. shameful and people

are ready to fall for it.

[Der Blaue Engel]

21. That was my take on it too

Thoughtful posts like yours are rare these days. Why aren't you off attacking some Democratic candidate while shrilly protesting that yours is being attacked. ;)

Welcome to DU,spirald! :hi:

[LandOLincoln]

35. I second that welcome, and for the same reasons.

Too often these days, DU sounds for all the world like a bunch of 13-year-olds who've just taken their first civics class.

Sure feels good to come across the occasional grownup.

[thoughtanarchist]

26. Thank you. I was waiting for someone to notice.

Welcome to DU

:toast:

[Exultant Democracy]

46. Still sounds sick to me, even 1 in a million is morally bankrupt.

[MethuenProgressive]

15. "Bill & Hillary Clinton no longer think torture has a place in U.S. policy,"

"Bill and Hillary Clinton apparently no longer think torture has a place in U.S. policy,"
The Story doesn't support the OP's subject line.

[SDuderstadt]

16. You might want to read the MTP transcript before you jump to conclusions

Have any of you bothered to read what Clinton actually said (both yesterday and in the previous interview that Russert was referring to) or did you just take what the New York Daily News says that he said?

[ToeBot]

So Jack Bauer spends the next season of '24' in prison for torture and crimes against humanity?

If he were, it would make for a more interesting story line than last season.

[jayctravis]

17. What he's saying makes sense.

The government should not sanction torture of any kind.

In the extremely specific instance there's a ticking time bomb and one bad guy knows how to stop it, and torturing the guy will get the code, there are very few of us who would hesitate to do what needs to be done. That situation comes up in movies and TV a lot...much less so in real life.

[rodeodance]

22. this article is making stupid soundbites out of a complicated response.

[Az_lefty]

23. So renegades are OK? That's what we have now...

neocon nuts who thumb their nose at the law...thanks Bill, but you can keep this one.

[DWilliamsamh]

39. Try finding the MTP Video and watch it

For that matter read the transcript of the interview posted elsewhere in this thread.

I saw the MTP interview and President Clinton DID NOT say that we need more Jack Bowers or that there is acceptable use of torture the way the OP implies. Even the article referenced doesn't say he said that.

Actually what Pres. Clinton said, many times during that exchange, was that he was WRONG in the past when he did think there should be "exceptions in the law" for situations that have become generically known as Jack Bower moments (alternately the "ticking time bomb" scenario). He further said that, even in such a situation (which he emphatically noted has never happened) there should be no codified exception, and that any agent who did decide that Bower-like breaking of our laws against torture should do so ready to face the consequences. President Clinton FURTHER noted that even in the fictionalized universe of 24 when Agent Bower pushes past the law, bad things happen and he doesn't get the result he necessarily wanted.

Nice try to slime Clinton by the original poster. Do us all a favor, leave the distortions on right wing political web sites.

[SDuderstadt]

24. In case you're at all interested, here's the relevant portion of Sunday's MTP transcript

MR. RUSSERT: I want to talk some politics with you. The other night, the Democratic debate in New Hampshire, I read a statement...

MR. CLINTON: Yeah.

MR. RUSSERT: ...of our conversation from last year.

MR. CLINTON: I remember that very well.

(Videotape, September 24, 2006)

MR. CLINTON: Every one of us can imagine the following scenario: We get lucky, we get the number three guy in al-Qaeda, and we know there’s a big bomb going off in America in three days, and we know this guy knows where it is, know we have the right and the responsibility to beat it out of him.

They could set up a law where the president could make a finding or could guarantee a pardon or could guarantee the submission of that sort of thing post-facto to the intelligence court just like we do now with the wiretaps.

(End videotape)

MR. RUSSERT: Now, I didn’t tell Senator Clinton, who had made that comment to me. This was her answer. Let’s watch.

(Videotape)

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D-NY): As a matter of policy, it cannot be American policy period.

Now, there are a lot of other things that we need to be doing that I wish we were: better intelligence, making our, you know, our country better respected around the world working to have more allies. But these hypotheticals are very dangerous, because they open a great big hole in what should be an attitude that our country and our president takes toward the appropriate treatment of everyone. And I think it’s dangerous to go down this path.

(End videotape)

MR. RUSSERT: Doesn’t seem as if she’s for the exception that you were outlining.

MR. CLINTON: She was great, though. I thought—and I thought the next part of it, where she said...

MR. RUSSERT: We’re going to get to that!

MR. CLINTON: Yeah. You know, I, I went back and read the whole transcript, and, as general point, I think she’s right. That is I think America’s policy should be to oppose torture, to honor the Geneva Conventions for several reasons. One is, it’s almost always counterproductive. If you beat somebody up, they’ll tell you what they want to hear. Two is, it, it really hurts us in the rest of the world and helps to recruit other terrorists. And thirdly, it makes our own people vulnerable to torture.

You know, there’s a one in a million chance that you might be alone somewhere, and you’re Jack Bauer on “24.” That’s the Jack Bauer example, right? It happens every season with Jack Bauer, but to—in the real world it doesn’t happen very much. If you have a policy which legitimizes this, it’s a slippery slope and you get in the kind of trouble we’ve been in here with Abu Ghraib, with Guantanamo, with lots of other examples.

And I’m not even sure what I said is right now. I think what happens is the honest truth is that Tim Russert, Bill Clinton, people filming this show, if we were the Jack Bauer person and it was six hours to the bomb or whatever, you don’t know what you would do, and you have to—but I think what our policy ought to be is to be uncompromisingly opposed to terror—I mean to torture, and that if you’re the Jack Bauer person, you’ll do whatever you do and you should be prepared to take the consequences. And I think the consequences will be imposed based on what turns out to be the truth. I think there are a lot of areas in life where you don’t. But I, I loved how she handled this whole thing. I guess you want to show the rest now.

MR. RUSSERT: But, but not heavy formal exception.

MR. CLINTON: Yeah, I don’t think you should now. The more I think about it, and the more I have seen that, if you have any kind of formal exception, people just drive a truck through it, and they’ll say “Well, I thought it was covered by the exception.” I think, I think it’s better not to have one. And if you happen to be the actor in that moment which, as far as I know, has not occurred in my experience or President Bush’s experience since we’ve been really dealing with this terror, but I—you actually had the Jack Bauer moment, we call it, I think you should be prepared to live with the consequences. And yet, ironically, if you look at the show, every time they get the president to approve something, the president gets in trouble, the country gets in trouble. And when Bauer goes out there on his own and is prepared to live with the consequences, it always seems to work better.

MR. RUSSERT: I then...

MR. CLINTON: So Hillary’s probably right about this.

MR. RUSSERT: I then asked—told Senator Clinton my source, and let’s watch.

(Videotape)

RUSSERT: The guest who laid out this scenario for me with that proposed solution was William Jefferson Clinton last year.

SEN. CLINTON: Well...

MR. RUSSERT: So he disagrees with you.

SEN. CLINTON: Well, he’s not standing here right now.

MR. RUSSERT: So there is a disagreement.

SEN. CLINTON: Well, I’ll talk to him later.

(End videotape)

MR. RUSSERT: Tell me about—you’ve seen that look before?

MR. CLINTON: I have. Several times over the last 35 years. I loved it.

MR. RUSSERT: How was that conversation? Did you talk about it?


MR. CLINTON: No, I told her I thought she was terrific. And I told her, you know, how the whole thing came up. And I, and I told her, number one, I thought that the moment was great. I thought it was the defining moment of the debate. And number two, that I had decided what I just told you, that on the policy she was right, that you didn’t—once you start constructing exceptions you—you’re opening floodgates for trucks to drive through. It’s far better if you happen to the be the agent that has to deal with that, just suck it up and decide what you think is right and be prepared to live with the consequences. I think that—I think the generals were right, I think that she’s right, and I know that Senator Biden and others said the same thing. But the main thing is, she had a chance, because of this moment, to demonstrate what I know to be the truth, which is she’s perfectly comfortable making these national security calls and others even if she has to disagree with me and other people with whom she has broad agreement and for whom she has great respect. That’s what you want a president to do. You want them to listen to everybody then decide, and you want to have confidence that they will execute their decision with conviction. And I just loved it. Plus, it was funny, you know, that you, you showed that. But I, I was really proud of her. It was good.

[tomg]

65. Thanks for the transcript.

and welcome to DU. You jumped into a good one.

[Totally Committed]

27. He actually SAID this?

OMG.

Words fail me.

TC

[MethuenProgressive]

31. No, he didn't. Just anti-Hillary cloaked in anti-Bill mis-reading.

[DWilliamsamh]

37. I saw MTP, and he did NOT say it was OK.

And the article doesn't say he said we need more Jack Bowers either. Actually what Pres. Clinton said, many times during that exchange, was that he was WRONG in the past when he did think there should be "exceptions in the law" for situations that have become generically known as Jack Bower moments (alternately the "ticking time bomb" scenario). He further said that, even in such a situation (which he emphatically noted has never happened) there should be no codified exception, and that any agent who did decide that Bower-like breaking of our laws against torture should do so ready to face the consequences. President Clinton FURTHER noted that even in the fictionalized universe of 24 when Agent Bower pushes past the law, bad things happen and he doesn't get the result he necessarily wanted.

Nice try to slime Clinton by the original poster. Do us all a favor, leave the distortions on right wing political web sites.

[MethuenProgressive]

41. "Nice try to slime Clinton by the original poster." - And that's a shame, on DU

DU ain't as dumb as some would hope.

[SlingBlade]

38. Ah, Birds of a ...Umm Let's see

Oh Yea, Birds of a feather flock together :)

[CBHagman]

40. READ THE TRANSCRIPT, NOT THE SPIN.

Okay, say it with me: There's a transcript, people.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21065954/

MR. CLINTON: Yeah. You know, I, I went back and read the whole transcript, and, as general point, I think she’s right. That is I think America’s policy should be to oppose torture, to honor the Geneva Conventions for several reasons. One is, it’s almost always counterproductive. If you beat somebody up, they’ll tell you what they want to hear. Two is, it, it really hurts us in the rest of the world and helps to recruit other terrorists. And thirdly, it makes our own people vulnerable to torture.

You know, there’s a one in a million chance that you might be alone somewhere, and you’re Jack Bauer on “24.” That’s the Jack Bauer example, right? It happens every season with Jack Bauer, but to—in the real world it doesn’t happen very much. If you have a policy which legitimizes this, it’s a slippery slope and you get in the kind of trouble we’ve been in here with Abu Ghraib, with Guantanamo, with lots of other examples.

[MethuenProgressive]

42. Oh no! Not the transcript!!

Stop!! Stop!! You're killing the spinners!!
:rofl:

[CBHagman]

48. My pleasure, MP.

Transcripts are my business.

[hedgehog]

43. How many problems do we face today because of agents who

thought of themselves as Jack Bauer, "take action first and ask permission later"? Cowboy people like this built the Taliban for us because they were so busy giving it to the Russians. ( See Charlie Wilson's War).

Sorry Bill, spend a week with some Amnesty International field agents, then come tell me all about how Jack Bauer is going to save us all with torture. Typical Ivy League tough guy if you ask me!

[hedgehog]

44. Tell me where the line is drawn between Bill and Hillary,

then tell me he's not running for anything!

[YOY]

45. "Fact is fiction and TV reality" -U2

The good guys don't torture. Sorry Bill.

[Canuckistanian]

49. I've had it with both Clintons

This is outrageous. Bill just doesn't get it.

You don't allow torture for ANY reason. It will NEVER be used "occasionally" or even "rarely" if it's allowed AT ALL. And the temptation for semi-fascist governments like the present one is just too great.

I used to think he was great - and he is on many issues. But then he gives wishy-washy arguments for blatant offences against the constitution or doesn't make a stand at all.

These days are NOT the time to try and pander to the "squishy middle"

[MethuenProgressive]

50. "Bill & Hillary Clinton no longer think torture has a place in U.S. policy,"

Read the transcript, not just the anti-Clinton spin in the OP.

[tabasco]

56. Bill Clinton said it would be wrong to have exceptions....AND THEN SAYS

"but there's always that one in a million chance..."

That is the type of exception he claims to be against!

[MethuenProgressive]

57. AND THEN SAYS: 'it’s illegal, it’s immoral, it doesn’t work...'

"There is a one in a million chance that happens. But the United States is against torture because it’s illegal, it’s immoral, it doesn’t work and it makes our own soldiers vulnerable to torture."
:eyes:

[DWilliamsamh]

60. Yeah and when he said that ... there's no spin on the followup:

He ALSO said that if an agent thought they were in the middle of that one in a million situation, that agent would have to decide to face the full consequences of the law for what he had done and the truth would will out - but that there should be no codified exceptions in the law. This effectively means that if the agent is willing to bet his ass and prison time, then well we would have to try the person in the end for violating the law.

What part of that don't you understand????

[tabasco]

69. Maybe try a comprehension class.

So Clinton said there is a million to one situation just to highlight that the agent should not break the law.

You betcha.

You wanna get a shitty attitude, I can play along.

[DWilliamsamh]

76. Again, what part don't you understand?

He said the agent who decides to torture (even in the one in a million "ticking time bomb" Jack Bower scenario) should know he is going to face charges and trial because there are no exception because torture is immoral and ineffective. Why do you seem to have such a beef with Clinton? Is it just trying to get folks to have a knee jerk negative reaction to all things Clinton (including Hillary)? Or are you just so literal that you can't understand what he was saying? Or did you miss entirely that he said even in the fictional world of 24 that when Jack Bower breaks the law bad things happen?


Read the transcript, watch the video and then talk to me about comprehension problems.

DW

P.S. I am not even a HRC supporter. quite frankly I think there are enough reasons to dislike her politics from a realistic point of view with out resorting to guilt by association for the imagined transgressions of her husband.

[jgraz]

52. Screw waterboarding. Just make detainees listen to Hillary's laugh for an hour

http://www.slate.com/id/2174397
http://media.slate.com/podcast/soundplayer.swf?soundfile=Pol_070928_Laugh.mp3

A couple hundred repetitions of that and I'd sell out my own mama.

[gorekerrydreamticket]

53. Dumbing down...Explaining a policy by using a TV show character...n/m

[knight_of_the_star]

54. There seems to more to this than meets the eye

I think Bill is running interference for Hillary and trying to make the point that they aren't the same person as well as try to make her seem more appealing to the left.

That aside, I think its dangerous and disturbing he thinks that especially since a man as smart as he is should know that teevee and real life are NOT the same. You can't script out the use of torture and hope it works, that's just plain dangerous.

[MethuenProgressive]

58. "it’s illegal, it’s immoral, it doesn’t work and it makes our own soldiers vulnerable"

Seems the only controvesy is that being manufactured by those already inclined to hate the Clintons.

[knight_of_the_star]

62. Such a strong word

So you see it that seeing someone as manifestly unfit for the presidency is hatred?

[IndianaGreen]

74. I think Bill Clinton approved the use of torture after the 1993 WTC bombing

and that rendition may have started under his Administration. Bush merely expanded existing covert programs started under the Clinton Administration.

Let's not forget that it was the Clinton CIA that brought Al-Qaeda fighters from Chechnya to fill the ranks of the Kosovo Liberation Army.

[knight_of_the_star]

82. Proof please?

If you're going to throw out stuff that outrageous you better have some good sources for that. I don't care for Bill but I'm not going to make a leap of faith on what you've posted unless you can solidly prove it.

[IndianaGreen]

87. CIA renditions began under Clinton: agent

Last Update: Thursday, December 29, 2005. 12:35pm (AEDT)

CIA renditions began under Clinton: agent

The US Central Intelligence Agency's (CIA) controversial "rendition"
program was launched under US president Bill Clinton, a former US
counter-terrorism agent has told a German newspaper.

Michael Scheuer, a 22-year veteran of the CIA who resigned from the
agency in 2004, has told Die Zeit that the US administration had been
looking in the mid-1990s for a way to combat the terrorist threat and
circumvent the cumbersome US legal system.

"President Clinton, his national security adviser Sandy Berger and his
terrorism adviser Richard Clark ordered the CIA in the autumn of 1995 to
destroy Al Qaeda," Mr Scheuer said.

"We asked the president what we should do with the people we capture.
Clinton said 'That's up to you'."

Mr Scheuer, who headed the CIA unit that tracked Al Qaeda leader Osama
bin Laden from 1996 to 1999, says he developed and led the "renditions"
program.

He says the program includes moving prisoners without due legal process
to countries without strict human rights protections.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200512/s1539284.htm

[killbotfactory]

61. Right, we don't officially support torture, terrorism, assassination

but if one of our agents decided to do so, it's all good.

[PurityOfEssence]

63. Driving like him would be okay, sez Junior

Hic.

[RamboLiberal]

66. I'm glad the MTP and Countdown transcripts were posted

The Daily News spin is not what Bill Clinton said. I think we ought to ban pols from watching Jack Bauer - especially the Repukes. And I was pissed that Timmy brought this up as a gotcha for Hillary and the other Dem candidates. And for all the f'in pundits that bring up these hypothetical plots that belong and probably will happen only on "24" and like TV Shows/Movies.

[The Backlash Cometh]

67. Nobody gets results like Jack Bauer, because it's pretend.

[leftchick]

68. I always knew Bill and Hil were sick sellout MFers

but this is just THE WORST! :grr:

[Harper_is_Bush]

92. ah. what a husband thinks, so must the wife.

disgusting sentiment from you

[IndianaGreen]

70. Clinton softened Iraq by bombing it for 8 years, and he starved 500,000 Iraqi children to death

Clinton nostalgia and star power does not erase the Clinton record.

[Doctor_J]

71. Wow, Meeker. You lie like a Freeper

Clinton said nothing like that.

[HughMoran]

75. lol - DU is going to change it's name to CB

"Clinton Bash"

[Meeker Morgan]

86. Like a freeper?

Yuck foo.

I only quoted a newspaper story.

And not from a right wing paper either.

[LittleClarkie]

72. Bill, come back to reality

Real life is not like the tv, m'kay?

[bronxiteforever]

77. Bill Clinton "jumps the shark"

"24" :shrug:

[Zhade]

83. I knew he was a conservative corporate shill who destroyed a lot of freedom, but holy shit!

I had no idea he was this twisted.

[pitohui]

84. oh so totally the way to mischaracterize what bill said!

what bill said is the right opinion in my view

if for some reason you are convinced you have to step over that line to save the planet, then you do it to save the world and take the consequences

you don't say "but wait i need a piece of paper allowing me to torture this dude before i save the world to CYA" -- that type of person, who needs the piece of paper, should not ever get the piece of paper

i put it badly, bill put it well, and the headline writers as always distort for a cheap thrill

[Socal31]

85. So noone here would torture one idiot to save 500,000 from a nuke?

I know its one of those hypotheticals, such as "Would you kill a baby to save 1,000,000 men?" Torture should never be a first choice, but if somehow we knew 100% that it would save lives, then go ahead. Id rather live another day. (I know, call me selfish)

[tabasco]

88. First of all, torture doesn't mean you're going to get useful information.

Quite the contrary.

Second, if you have a law, it's a law, not a guideline. If you rationalize like you just did, i.e., torture to prevent a nuke, you will torture for any fucking reason.

The best way to prevent nukes is to send Cheney to prison. He compromised our top spy operation to discover contraband nuke materials.

The country survived a long time without sacrificing our moral authority. Until the criminal oil mafia took over. Now I can scarcely recognize my country. FEAR FEAR TERROR NUKES. Just STFU already.

[Socal31]

89. Riiiight....

because theres no such thing as Wahabi Islam, and noone wants to see Israel and its supporters off this planet. Does this mean we should invade Iran, and torture everyone? No. (Now, us supporting Israel is another story, worst move ever imo)

[DJKDJKDJK]

91. When you wake up and realize the CIA

and the Illuminati run the world...you'll realize the only threat out there is the Government itself. It's all smoke and mirrors dude...wake up.

[Socal31]

93. Im not going to get into tin-hat arguments.

I forgot the CIA did WTC, WTC II, U.S.S. Cole, Embassy bombings, took hostages in Iran, etc. We are evil. We obviously cause all evil in the world. *puke*

[DJKDJKDJK]

90. Hording for the conservative vote.

Bill Clinton is a tool of the corporations my friends and war. If you like war and the crumbling of America...keep propping Bill and Hillary up.

[tchunter]

96. won't someone think of the hypothetical children?

[mvd]

97. Torture will always be unreliable

Even if you do it to save 500,000, chances are that the person you will be torturing isn't thinking about those 500,000.

[Carrieyazel]

98. Looks like Hillary doesn't even know what her husband is saying.

And she wants to be President?

[rinsd]

100. Yet again DU takes the RW frame instead of looking at the actual context.

:eyes:

Here's the actual transcript.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14907031/

[ozone_man]

102. The same reasoning that Sam Harris used

in "The End of Faith". He received a lot of criticism for that too. I think Sam may have been sold too much on the war on terror, but that book was written during the onset of war, when even Hillary Clinton was fooled by the WMD evidence. :)

Also, watch Sunshine (2007) for a great example, where the Earth's survival is dependent on having to kill one or two of the space ship crew members to save enough oxygen to complete the mission. It's a hypothetical, ethical question. What would you do if there were 100 lives at stake, or a million, or the entire Earth?

One variation is knowing that there is only a possibility of saving the many (as in Sunshine), or alternatively, that the many stand only a probabilistic threat, such as a dirty nuclear bomb threat that may be real or not.

Where do you draw the line? Do "the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one"? Spock seems to think so. ;)

Clinton is right though about it not being part of policy. It can't be legalized.

Having said that, I hate the idea of torture.