Chavez Accuses US of Military Rebellion

[cal04]

Source: Associated Press

President Hugo Chavez accused the U.S. on Wednesday of trying to spur a military rebellion, saying the CIA is behind the distribution of leaflets inside army barracks calling for his ouster.

Speaking to dozens of army officers at Venezuela's largest military base, Chavez urged soldiers to resist calls for a coup from "oligarchs and their imperialist masters," a reference to the United States.

"They will always try to divide us and confuse us to weaken us, and thereby dominate us," said Chavez, who weathered a short-lived coup in 2002.

Noting that leaflets calling for a rebellion have been circulating in army barracks recently, he said: "That's why they have the CIA."



Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071004/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_us_5

[L1A1Rocker]

1. ???

So are you saying this is a good or a bad thing?

[SharonAnn]

66. Like Chileunder Allende's presidency in 1973. Incite the military to take over.

[piedmont]

2. We sure make for a great bogeyman. nt

[TheProf]

26. Those Darn U.S.

printer and toner manufacturers. Can you imagine someone buying their product and having their own ideas?

[EFerrari]

37. We have a long sordid history of using our military and CIA

to screw with democracy in Latin America.

[cstanleytech]

51. Well

yeah but there is no real evidence here.
Unless of course we are supposed to just take the word from Chavez on it and honestly I don't trust him any more than I trust President Bush.

[EFerrari]

53. No real evidence? What about the fact of the CIA backed

attemped coup in 2002, was it?

Please explain to us why you disbelieve Chavez. It couldn't possibly be because of the nonstop smear campaign from your corporate, Bush kissing media.

[cstanleytech]

54. They may well have done so then but thats

not evidence they have done so now and until or unless Chavez can show some proof its just rantings and ravings of a dictator because thats what he is not that Bush is much better with Gitmo, illegal wiretaps and so on.

Edit: BTW you might want to be more careful with the accusations you make just because you don't like that people don't agree with you in the future and for the record I have voted democratic since the late 80s I voted Gore in 2000 and Kerry in 2004.

[EFerrari]

67. Please explain why you call Chavez a dictator when his election

is cleaner than your so called president's.

It can't possibly be because of the nonstop smear campaign in your ho Bush kissing media.

[cstanleytech]

68. No, its because of his actions with seizing property for starters

among other things but whatever, your free to continue to think its a conspiracy without evidence to back it up if you want to as I am not going to stop you after all the world needs conspiracy nuts to keep checking on these things not to mention the entertainment value they provide.

[Judi Lynn]

69. You'd be educating everyone here if you provided information on the

property seized in Venezuela by Hugo Chavez. You never hear of governments expropriating land with compensation to the owners, do you?

On edit:

In the meantime, here's an example of government expropriating land WITHOUT compensation, by an authentic dictator, Hugo Banzer, of Bolivia, which was just fine with the U.S. government:

COLONEL HUGO BANZER
President of Bolivia
In 1970, in Bolivia, when then-President Juan Jose Torres nationalized Gulf Oil properties and tin mines owned by US interests, and tried to establish friendly relations with Cuba and the Soviet Union, he was playing with fire. The coup to overthrow Torres, led by US-trained officer and Gulf Oil beneficiary Hugo Banzer, had direct support from Washington. When Banzer's forces had a breakdown in radio communications, US Air Force radio was placed at their disposal. Once in power, Banzer began a reign of terror. Schools were shut down as hotbeds of political subversive activity. Within two years, 2,000 people were arrested and tortured without trial. As in Paraguay, Argentina and Brazil, the native Indians were ordered off their land and deprived of tribal identity. Tens-of-thousands of white South Africans were enticed to immigrate with promises of the land stolen from the Indians, with a goal of creating a white Bolivia. When Catholic clergy tried to aid the Indians, the regime, with CIA help, launched terrorist attacks against them, and this "Banzer Plan" became a model for similar anti-Catholic actions throughout Latin America.
(snip/)

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/US_ThirdWorld/dictators.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Hugo Banzer and his U.S.-installed dictator friend, Augusto Pinochet

[mitchtv]

82. Thanks for reminding me Judi lynn

I was in Bolivia in those times. It is all true, and they KNEW the CIA was behind the death of Gen Schneider the next day, not ten years later , like here.

[Judi Lynn]

92. It would do U.S. Americans a world of good to realize they need to learn a HELL of a lot more

about what has been happening in this hemisphere, wouldn't it?

As you note, it takes a long, LONG time for them to figure it out, since the right-wing U.S. Presidents can't afford for the people to know what they're up to at the time they're doing it. We've been finding it out even several decades later, whent the official documents finally get declassified after someone keeps after it year after year after year, and even then, in such heavily censored ways.

So much truly wicked things were going on then all over South America, thanks to U.S. interference and butting into things which are truly NOT our affair. Really envy you your first-hand knowledge.

[EFerrari]

70. Please delineate what property Chavez has seized.

And then, please go on and explain "conspiracy nuts" for us.

lol

[cstanleytech]

72. Well for conspiracies lets start with that you

appear to be under the delusion that I work for the dreaded BushCO TM or atleast that I believe even 1% of the lies from Fox News and that your taking the word of a leader of a country that has been blaming everything and anything on the US and the CIA.
Not an agency with a clean record by any stretch of the imagination I'll admit that and yeah it would not surprise me if they did do this thing with the but as others have said in the thread back it up with proof and stop expecting the people to take the word of Chavez on this.
If I won't take my own presidents word about WMDs or that he would be a uniter not a divider what makes you think I or anyone else should take Chavez at his word?
As for property he took that would be the electric company as well as the phone company Cantv and also he took the oil companies property, not that I am crying to much for them but regardless it was not his property.

[EFerrari]

74. Um, no. Chavez, in accordance with Venezuelan law

nationalized some utilities and paid a fair price for them. He didn't "seize" anything as you could know if you bothered to check it out instead of making wild claims.

And, I'm not delusional and have no interest whatsoever in who you work for, thanks.

[cstanleytech]

81. Hiding behind the law or supposed law does not

make it anymore right than it makes Bush right for holding people for years in Gitmo or claiming he does not need a FISA warrant for a wiretap.

[EFerrari]

95. There is no comparison.

Bush is a scofflaw. The Chavez government is no such thing.

[Vidar]

101. "Hiding behind the law" & actually being elected are precisely why Chavez is

not a dictator--and Bush is.

[Dave From Canada]

93. I don't trust him anymore then Bush. They both rule by fear. I'm guessing Chavez will conjure up a

"CIA led coup" every month or so, in order to keep his population nice and scared and distracted.

[Gregorian]

3. I wonder who his "Pinochet" is.

I'll bet Kissinger knows.

This country is so far out of control. Chile, East Timore, Vietnam... And we foot the bill. How stupid is that.

[redqueen]

17. Extremely stupid... but look how many on this site

get all frothy at the mouth over every hit piece about Chavez. If he's overthrown, the people who eat all that stuff up are the built-in accepting audience for the 'it was Venezuelans themselves what done it' lies.

People are all too easy to lead around.

[ronnie624]

4. This article is very poorly written

and the headline is gibberish.

Chavez is accusing the CIA of disseminating propaganda within the ranks of the Venezuelan military, a tactic that is signature to their modus operandi.

Anyone who believes that the CIA is not disseminating propaganda throughout Venezuela, has got some catching up to do.

[muryan]

5. you act like foreign services dont disseminate propaganda in the united states

its a giant circle and its fairly harmless until somebody does something stupid. (like elect bush)

[ronnie624]

6. Not with the intesity of the CIA.

Suggesting that other countries wage covert war against the US in a manner similar to that which is prosecuted by the CIA, is to venture well beyond reality, muryan.

Good night.

[Progressive_In_NC]

7. Russia (former USSR) is the only entity that has come close to be honest

Otherwise you are right.

[1932]

8. You think a foreign government is encouraging a military coup in the US?

[davidinalameda]

9. and of course Chavez is above circulating the leaflets

so he can blame them on the US

nice strawman there Hugo

[Judi Lynn]

11. It would be smarter to recall which country has the well-established HISTORY

of leafletting countries whose governments it wants to overthrow.

It would be completely STUPID for a President to put out leaflets encouraging his soldiers to overthrow his ass. Please!

[USA_1]

29. ''strawman''

Chavez wouldn't do that to himself as you noted. The only 'strawman' types are the Republican posters who have been planted on this forum to lend support to Bush's views.

[redqueen]

19. What would be the point of that?

:shrug:

[ronnie624]

20. A very rich and detailed history of CIA activities

exists, from which anyone can learn the facts. You can start with the Church Committee.

I'm absolutely certain, that no evidence exists, that would support your accusation. What is the purpose of making such a ridiculous and unfounded claim?

I certainly hope, that no one here, is so easily mislead.

[Judi Lynn]

22. Good grief! Look at the propaganda effort by the CIA in Chile, leaflets included:

Church Report

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Covert Action in Chile 1963-1973.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
94th Congress 1st Session COMMITTEE PRINT

COVERT ACTION IN CHILE 1963-1973

Staff Report of the Select Committee To Study Governmental Operations With Respect to Intelligence Activities

UNITED STATES SENATE

December 18, 1975

Printed for the use of the Select Committee To Study Governmental Operations With Respect to Intelligence Activities

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 63-372

Washington: 1975

~snip~
2. Covert Action Techniques

Covert action during the 1964 campaign was composed of two major elements. One was direct financial support of the Christian Democratic campaign. The CIA underwrote slightly more than half of the total cost of that campaign. After debate, the Special Group decided not to inform the Christian Democratic candidate, Eduardo Frei, of American covert support of his campaign. A number of intermediaries were therefore mobilized to pass the money to the Christian Democrats.

In addition to the subsidies for the Christian Democratic Party, the Special Group allocated funds to the Radical Party and to private citizens' groups. In addition to support for political parties, the CIA mounted a massive anti-communist propaganda campaign. Extensive use was made of the press, radio, films, pamphlets, posters, leaflets, direct mailings, paper streamers, and wall painting. It was a "scare campaign," which relied heavily on images of Soviet tanks and Cuban firing squads and was directed especially to women. Hundreds of thousands of copies of the anti-communist pastoral letter of Pope Pius XI were distributed by Christian Democratic organizations. They carried the designation, "printed privately by citizens without political affiliation, in order more broadly to disseminate its content." "Disinformation" and "black propaganda" -material which purported to originate from another source, such as the Chilean Communist Party- were used as well.

The propaganda campaign was enormous. During the first week of intensive propaganda activity (the third week of June 1964), a CIA-funded propaganda group produced twenty radio spots per day in Santiago and on 44 provincial stations; twelve-minute news broadcasts five time daily on three Santiago stations and 24 provincial outlets; thousands of cartoons, and much paid press advertising. By the end of June, the group produced 24 daily newscasts in Santiago and the provinces, 26 weekly "commentary" programs, and distributed 3,000 posters daily. The CIA regards the anti-communist scare campaign as the most effective activity undertaken by the U.S. on behalf of the Christian Democratic candidate.

The propaganda campaign was conducted internationally as well, and articles from abroad were "replayed" in Chile. Chilean newspapers reported: an endorsement of Frei by the sister of a Latin American leader, a public letter from a former president in exile in the U.S., a "message from the women of Venezuela." and dire warnings about an Allende victory from various figures in military governments in Latin America.

The CIA ran political action operations independent of the Christian Democrats' campaign in a number of important voter blocks, including slum dwellers, peasants, organized labor and dissident Socialists. Support was given to "anti-communist" members of the Radical Party in their efforts to achieve positions of influence in the party hierarchy, and to prevent the party from throwing its support behind Allende.
(snip/...)

http://foia.state.gov/Reports/ChurchReport.asp

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thanks for suggesting the Church committee's reports. Very, VERY interesting.

While on the subject of propaganda, this would be a good place to post information on how the C.I.A. used the Chilean newspaper, "El Mercurio" to dupe the Chilean people!

El Mercurio file, The
Columbia Journalism Review, Sep/Oct 2003 by Kornbluh, Peter
Secret Documents Shine New Light on How the CIA Used A Newspaper to Foment a Coup

~snip~
"Doonie," as Edwards is known to his closest friends, is the patriarch of the press - a Chilean Rupert Murdoch. His media empire encompasses Chile's renowned national newspaper, El Mercurio, a second national paper, Ultimas Noticias, and Santiago's leading afternoon paper, La Segunda, along with a dozen smaller regional journals. In September 1970, when Chileans narrowly elected Allende, a Socialist, to the presidency, Edwards was widely considered to be the richest man in Chile - and the individual with the most to lose financially from Allende's election.

The ethics charges against Edwards are likely to receive a boost from a careful analysis of formerly secret U.S. documents that shed considerable new light on CIA covert media operations in Chile. Since 1975, when a special congressional committee chaired by Idaho Senator Frank Church issued its report, Covert Action in Chile: 1963-1973, it has been no secret that the CIA provided significant funding to El Mercurio, put reporters and editors on its payroll, and used the paper, in the committee's words, as "the most important channel for anti-Allende propaganda." But with the declassification of thousands of CIA and White House records at the end of the Clinton administration, the history of the "El Mercurio Project" emerges in far greater detail. Among the key revelations in the documents:

* Even before Allende was inaugurated as president of Chile, Edwards came to Washington and discussed with the CIA the "timing for possible military action" to prevent Allende from taking office.

* President Nixon directly authorized massive funding to the newspaper. The White House approved close to $2 million dollars - a significant sum when turned into Chilean currency on the black market.

* Secret CIA cables from mid-1973 identified El Mercurio as among the "most militant parts of the opposition" pushing for military intervention to overthrow Allende.

* In the aftermath of the coup, the CIA continued to covertly finance media operations in order to influence Chilean public opinion in favor of the new military regime, despite General Pinochet's brutal repression.

The documents provide the most comprehensive record to date of one of the CIA's most famous covert propaganda projects, one that in retrospect played a far greater role than previously understood in the run-up to Pinochet's dictatorship. And they shed new light on the willingness of Chile's leading newspaper - a paper often compared in prestige and importance within Chile to The New York Times in America - to collaborate in fomenting the coup.
(snip/...)

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3613/is_200309/ai_n9294265

[ronnie624]

23. Excellent!

You make it too darned easy for me to be lazy, Judi Lynn.

Thanks. :hi:

[puffymuffins]

28. Chavez doesn't have time for that type of nonsense

He's too busy baby sitting his country, making sure young women don't get breast implants as well as monitoring the whiskey intake of the populace, and other equally critcally important things that real leaders should be spending their time on.

[BornagainDUer]

30. Yer a fascist dickham.

[Roy]

34. Did he hire KKKarl??? n/t

[leftist_not_liberal]

49. well, I should be just fine here

slinging my far left ideas if this Reich Wing bullshit is left to stand.

Wowee

[Freddie Stubbs]

10. And what is so bad with a military coup in Venezuela?

Didn't someone try that in 1992?

[Judi Lynn]

12. Against a pResident who ordered his forces to mow down crowds of protesting

citizens in Caracas, during his unique gift to his nation, the massacre "El Caracazo." Same guy was impeached, as well, for massive corruption.

Yeah, two different groups attempted a coup on Carlos Andres Perez.

They attempted a coup against a man who slaughtered Venezuelans. That doesn't seem to be the case with Hugo Chavez, does it?

[Freddie Stubbs]

15. So, the military should stage a coup whenever they feel the government is corrupt?

:shrug:

[Judi Lynn]

18. And you believe a President should slaughter his countrymen when they

panic and react to his filthy, crushing, brutal economic measures?

Apparently reaction against an a-hole beloved of the U.S. right-wing is simply out of the question, however whatever measures are chosen by the American government, wherever, whenever are holy, and meant to be worshipped.

The American Revolution was noble. Reaction against a TRUE monster in Venezuela is not permitted by American fascists, in their judgement of acceptable actions in other countries by the citizens who actually live there.

Apparently it was timely, and fitting, as the people of Venezuela started seeing Hugo Chavez as a hero, for his part in one of those attempts. He paid the price by serving time in prison, and was pardoned by a following Venezuelan President who just may have known more about the circumstances than a clown in the United States.

[1932]

43. When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people...

... to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security. --

Such has been the patient sufferance of these colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former systems of government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute tyranny over these states. To prove this, let facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his assent to laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his governors to pass laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of representation in the legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved representative houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the legislative powers, incapable of annihilation, have returned to the people at large for their exercise; the state remaining in the meantime exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavored to prevent the population of these states; for that purpose obstructing the laws for naturalization of foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migration hither, and raising the conditions of new appropriations of lands.

He has obstructed the administration of justice, by refusing his assent to laws for establishing judiciary powers.

He has made judges dependent on his will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, standing armies without the consent of our legislature.

He has affected to render the military independent of and superior to civil power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his assent to their acts of pretended legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment for any murders which they should commit on the inhabitants of these states:
For cutting off our trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing taxes on us without our consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of trial by jury:
For transporting us beyond seas to be tried for pretended offenses:
For abolishing the free system of English laws in a neighboring province, establishing therein an arbitrary government, and enlarging its boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule in these colonies:
For taking away our charters, abolishing our most valuable laws, and altering fundamentally the forms of our governments:
For suspending our own legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated government here, by declaring us out of his protection and waging war against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burned our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large armies of foreign mercenaries to complete the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow citizens taken captive on the high seas to bear arms against their country, to become the executioners of their friends and brethren, or to fall themselves by their hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavored to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian savages, whose known rule of warfare, is undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these oppressions we have petitioned for redress in the most humble terms: our repeated petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have we been wanting in attention to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, enemies in war, in peace friends.

We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by the authority of the good people of these colonies, solemnly publish and declare, that these united colonies are, and of right ought to be free and independent states; that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the state of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as free and independent states, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do. And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

[Judi Lynn]

44. Absolutely compelling, 1932. I've bookmarked this thread because of your post. Thanks. n/t

[ronnie624]

45. Thanks.

Such beautiful language.

I have a copy in my files, of course, but your post gave me cause to read it again.

[Kingofalldems]

13. This is Democratic Underground-not RW coup lovers

underground.

[Freddie Stubbs]

14. So, Chavez's left-wing coup attempt in 1992 was ok?

:shrug:

[YankmeCrankme]

16. Actually, wasn't he caught and tried for that offense? Just asking

Besides it wasn't a foreign government nor was he a foreign national promoting the country's military to stage a coup.

[ronnie624]

21. Apparently it is was OK,

because he has been elected president by those, whose opinions are the only ones that ultimately matter on this issue: the Venezuelan people. Surely, the citizens of any country, have a right to overthrow their own government, if they find it corrupt and brutal.

However, it is never OK, for foreign governments to overthrow governments in other counties. Not only is it morally wrong, it is a violation of international law.

Is the matter now clear to you?

[Kingofalldems]

25. He has been elected--more than once

Perhaps you would like a Pinochet-type to run Venezuela. Yeah, and like Pinochet, shove trickle down economics down their throat.

[ProudDad]

27. AB-SO-FUCKING-LUTELY it was OK!!!!

Except, as Chavez has admitted, he should have built up grassroots support instead...so he did...and still is...

Hugo's on the side of ultimate Good...

The brutal dictator of Venezuela in '92 and the rulers of the Empire of the North are on the side of Evil, as apparently are you!!!

Easy choice!

[1932]

32. Just like the American Revolution was OK.

[Judi Lynn]

24. Sidenote for DU'ers who watch Venezuelan events with interest:

Venezuela inches toward setting new mining rules

Venezuela is inching toward defining new mining regulations with tentative plans to oblige at least some foreign companies in the industry to form joint ventures with the state to develop properties.

Deputy Mining Minister Ivan Hernandez, who is drafting the new rules, told Reuters late on Tuesday the plan was ready for approval by his boss before being passed on to President Hugo Chavez.

The regulations are important for foreign companies, such as junior Canadian miner Crystallex which has been waiting for years for permission to develop the huge Las Cristinas gold project.

After repeated government delays in allowing such projects to go forward, the timing of any new regulations appears to be just as key as what the new rules actually will be.

The process may still take months longer to conclude and stretch into next year.

Venezuela has an economy based on oil exports but also has rich mineral deposits, including gold and diamonds.

The government has been working on creating new industry rules for years.
(snip/...)

http://www.mining-journal.com/Breaking_News.aspx?breaking_news_article_id=3961
Reuters October 3.

[Rage for Order]

31. Oh my god!

Leaflets! Quick, get the children into the bomb shelters! And don't forget the plastic and duct tape!

[ronnie624]

33. If you have been keeping up

with events in Venezuela during the last several years, you know very well that the CIA's campaign against the Bolivarian Revolution, consists of more than just distributing leaflets, though the insidious power of propaganda should never be underestimated. There's a reason the CIA invests so heavily into propaganda as a tool for toppling governments: it works (especially on a society that places little value on education).

If you were on the receiving end of a CIA campaign to destroy your elected government, and install in its place, an oligarchic dictatorship, perhaps you wouldn't regard it so flippantly.

[Rage for Order]

35. Please

If things truly are going as swimmingly in Venezuela as Chavez says they are, then the progress should be readily apparent to a large majority of the population - even the military. The message then becomes "Who are you going to believe, these leaflets or your lying eyes?"

[Judi Lynn]

36. You're overlooking a simple fact. It's absolutely evil to muck around in Venezuela's

national affairs. Period.

Your attempts at flippancy fall wildly short, as they make no sense at all, and reveal more about you than you seem to grasp.

The best way to discuss US foreign policy is to treat the subject with a bit of honest seriousness. If you can't manage it, you're wasting your time, and most clearly everyone else's.

[ronnie624]

38. Many (most?) Americans, simply cannot get past their belief,

that the US government has a right to meddle in the affairs of other countries. For millions, it is simply a given, that if the US government disapproves of another government, it is our right to force it to our will. I think it is one of the reasons that political propaganda is so effective on Americans.

I have to admit, that many years ago, the self centered, chauvinistic belief in American exceptionalism, was a part of my world view as well.

[Karenina]

52. There are MANY beliefs that blind Americans

to any picture of reality that puts the LIE to those beliefs. It's quite sad, really...

[Rage for Order]

39. You're assuming that the leaflet report is true

As opposed to Chavez saying "Terra! Terra!". There hasn't been any evidence presented other than Chavez's government saying so. Even if we work off of the assumption that the supposed leaflets do exist, what could they possibly say that would cause the army to rebel? Is it anything that the people couldn't read on the internet? Chavez does allow his citizens to have unfettered access to the internet, doesn't he? Perhaps the Venezuelan government should install some propaganda filters on the nation's internet infrastructure, just in case? Wouldn't want the people to read anything that might be deemed as inciting a rebellion.

[EFerrari]

40. Because Chavez has a history or lying and the CIA

has no history of trying to depose him?

:rofl:

[puffymuffins]

46. Terra, Terra, Terra.

You are absolutely correct. Fat Boy is merely employing the same lame technique as Frat Boy, trying to create imaginary bogeymen. Bush and Chavez must be exchanging notes on terra. Little Boots and Zapatos Pequenos.

[1932]

47. Could your post be more strained in its effort to create that juxtaposition?

I picture you at your computer profusely sweating as you struggle to push those atoms together to reach a critical mass of propagandizing.

[puffymuffins]

50. Got any proof of these so called leaflets?

The propaganda is coming from Chavez on this one.

[cstanleytech]

55. For now I will agree

Chavez needs to provide some proof.
Mind you it won't shock me to learn if it was the CIA, they are after all in the business of doing such things but just because of that does not mean we take the word of everyone that claims something is the fault of the CIA.
Sorry but the CIA is not at fault for everything in the world.

[1932]

56. Got any evdnc that Chavez isn't credible on this or any issue? Got any evidence that anyone else in

the world with more credibility than an anonymous internet poster says these leaflets don't exist?

[puffymuffins]

57. Yes, I do have evidence.

He has not produced the leaflets! Therefore, Fat Boy has no credibility on the issue. If he had leaflets, he would be showing them to the media. That's my evidence to disprove his credibility.

Do you have any evidence to support the existnece of the so called leaflets. No? I didn't think so.

[1932]

58. I didn't expect to see any evidence (notwithstanding your subject line). Thanks for not disappointng

[puffymuffins]

59. I did show you evidence

Even though you asked me to prove a negative! You lose.

Now,show me evidence of the existince of these leaflets. Can't do it? That's what I thought.

[1932]

60. man, you are seriously making me laugh.

[puffymuffins]

61. Glad you're in a good mood!

So am I! Fat Boy's claim of these so called leafets made me laugh too! Whenever you have prove of the existence of these CIA leaflets please post a link and we'll discuss this further. Thanks!

[1932]

62. I feel very strongly about Chavez -- a fellow Galbraithiano -- and I spend a lot of time at DU doing

my best to counter the bullshit I see a written about Venezuela and, frankly and honestly, nothing you've written here today is making so nervous that I feel like I need to go out and find a leaflet.

[puffymuffins]

63. Well...

If you feel strongly about Chavez and want to counter bullshit, give me an honest answer to this:

Are the leaflets bullshit or are they true?

[Flanker]

71. The existance of leaflets does not prove anything

If they were produced you would argue that the government printed them themselves. demanding evidence you know very well you can backpedal on is so weak.

[cstanleytech]

73. Exactly

Anyone could have done up leaflets or flyers and just because the CIA has a history of underhanded dirty tricks does not mean Chavez can blame this on them legitimately.

[EFerrari]

75. Yes because the Chavez governent has nothing better to do

than print up leaflets against ITSELF.

:rofl:

[hack89]

87. Why not?

Not saying it happened but it wouldn't be the first time a leader has raised the spectre of foreign interference for his own purposes.

[EFerrari]

88. Because he doesn't need to. His government is very popular.

And they're busy with literacy programs, and opening medical clinics and establishing community councils and prying Big Oil's nasty hands offa their resources.

They have no need to do such a thing.

[hack89]

89. I have no understanding of the complexities

of Venezuelan society - but I know it is more complex than you appear to think it is. Time will tell.

[Judi Lynn]

90. You're screwing around with the wrong person. She knows a very great deal

about Latin America.

You're way out of your depth attempting to undercut this poster's awareness of the situation.

[hack89]

91. I am not screwing around with anyone

I proposed (not advocated - just proposed) a possible reason why Chavez could have been the source of the leaflets and all I got back was a simplistic homely on how wonderful Venezuelan society was.

[EFerrari]

96. The word is "homily" and no, that's not how I responded. n/t

[Judi Lynn]

98. Thanks for the clarification!

I couldn't make heads or tails of it, personally.


"It don't get no better than this."

[hack89]

100. That's no suprise nt

[hack89]

99. OK - if you say so n/t

[EFerrari]

94. I do have a firm grasp on the complexies that Venezuela is facing.

You could, too, if you had the inclination to do the work.

[hack89]

102. But it does not come across

when your response is simplistic, arrogant and high handed instead of educational. All you taught me was that you are overly sensitive to any perceived criticism of Chavez. OK - I now know better to engage you on the issue.

[ronnie624]

76. For what reason would Chavez falsely accuse the CIA?

Several facts, taken together, provide some pretty good circumstantial evidence that the CIA is indeed operating in Venezuela.

Consider the CIA's method of operation and the history of US involvement in Latin America. The US government has an undeniable history of financing covert and proxy wars all over the region, and has even overtly invaded a few of the countries. Links to information, posted on this very thread, show conclusively, that the CIA has spent millions of dollars, for the purpose of disseminating propaganda in Chile, alone.

When considering what is known about the CIA's activities in Latin America, along with the political and economic motives that drive those activities, is it really so difficult to believe that the US is disseminating propaganda in Venezuela? Factor in the Friction between the two governments, and I believe it becomes a virtual certainty.

[cstanleytech]

79. Oh thats almost a given that they are

operating in the country for sure (they are the CIA after all) but it still is flimsy evidence with which to blame the CIA for these leaflets if they do exist.
Like I said though before it would not surprise me in the least if they did this but *shrug* I need evidence if someone is making claims especially claims like this regardless of who might be making the claims I would demand evidence first.

[mitchtv]

85. Jenna?

is that you?

[puffymuffins]

86. Adan?

Is that you?

[mitchtv]

84. right,

Chimpco would be loathe to interfere in the affairs of an oil rich Latin nation. sure

[SpikeTss]

65. Who in his right mind wouldn't?

There are countless reports about actions similar to the one Chavez describes, so I give you just
one example of what has been done:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Labor/SolidarityCtr_AFL_Venez.html

[mitchtv]

83. damned right I'm assuming the report is true

It would be news if we weren't doing this shit

[Flea]

41. .......

I'd love to know who appointed America to be the decider of leaders and the police of the world.

Why can't we just mind our own fucking business?

[1932]

42. Answer to that question: Wall Street

[Name removed]

48. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leaninglib]

77. The round mound from Caracas town invents another straw man.

Fat boy is surely the most bizarre head of state on the planet.

[ileus]

78. Ego chavez needs to find another hobby...

This ones getting old...

[EFerrari]

97. Yeah, that whole protecting your people from CIA predations

is 'way fucking old.

[Judi Lynn]

80. Hands off Bolivia and Venezuela!

Hands off Bolivia and Venezuela!


Simon Cunich, Sydney
6 October 2007


On October 5, Resistance held a protest outside the US consulate to offer solidarity to the people of Bolivia and Venezuela in the face of the campaign against their democratically elected governments by the US. Both countries are targets of Washington for their refusal to allow foreign oil and gas corporations to control their natural resources and determine their future.


In April 2002, the Bush administration welcomed the short-lived coup against Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez that attempted to return to a situation more favourable to US interests, where oil would be sold at cheap prices to US corporations by a wealthy elite while the majority of Venezuelan people would be condemned to poverty. Since the coup was defeated, the US government — through the National Endowment for Democracy and the US Agency for International Development — has poured at least US$11 million into supporting Venezuelan opposition groups.

Similarly, according to journalist Eva Golinger, the US has spent millions funding groups in Bolivia aimed at undermining the government of indigenous President Evo Morales. Morales won office in 2005 on the back of social movements that had forced two pro-US presidents to stand down. Since 2005, Bolivia’s gas has been nationalised and revenue redirected to social programs to alleviate poverty, in collaboration with Venezuela and Cuba through the Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas (ALBA), which is providing an alternative to US-pushed “free trade” policies.

More:
http://www.greenleft.org.au/2007/727/37722