Accounts of Gotbaum Death Conflict (Phoenix Airport Death)

[RamboLiberal]

Source: NY Times

In the aftermath of Carol Anne Gotbaum’s death in police custody at the airport here, her family has hired a high-powered Phoenix lawyer who has gone after police wrongdoing in the past, a nationally renowned forensic pathologist and a former journalist turned private investigator, all of whom are helping in an attack on the official police account of the events leading to the death of a woman who married into the powerful New York family.

Yesterday as Mrs. Gotbaum’s husband, Noah, came here to collect his wife’s body from a mortuary, the family’s attorney, Michael C. Manning, stayed on the attack, contradicting pivotal points in the police’s version of last Friday’s incident, including new details about an account by a witness who he says claimed that Mrs. Gotbaum may have been unconscious before she even got to a police holding area.

“She was listless, unconscious to nearly unconscious,” Mr. Manning said, recalling what he was told by an airline employee whose name he was still withholding but planned to eventually release to the police. Once the employee is ready to be identified, Manning said: “I want Phoenix police to interview this witness. This is important.”

-----

The account also gave details of a harrowing attempt by police to resuscitate Mrs. Gotbaum, saying that she vomited into the mouth of an officer who was giving her mouth-to-mouth, and that the officer then vomited himself, but continued attempting to save her life.

-----

The Gotbaums have hired Cyril H. Wecht, who performed an autopsy Tuesday that was independent of the one performed by the Maricopa County medical examiner a day earlier. Dr. Wecht, a well-known forensic pathologist based in the Pittsburgh, has worked a number of high-profile cases. He has performed autopsies on Vincent W. Foster Jr., the White House lawyer who killed himself in 1993, and the Anna Nicole Smith’s son, Daniel.



Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/04/nyregion/05cnd-gotbaum.html?hp

[jgraz]

1. This part isn't suspicious at all

:sarcasm:

In the continuing battle with the Phoenix authorities, Mr. Manning expressed disappointment yesterday that the medical examiner’s offices withheld Mrs. Gotbaum’s brain, throat and heart from Mr. Wecht.



Nothing like a little official coverup to pique the interest...

[Evergreen Emerald]

5. it is too soon to give up the body...they have not even listed a cause of death

Be careful in assessing BOTH sides. Don't just assume one side is right because you may have a bias against the police.

[bluerum]

6. cause of death,,,, got to tread lightly there,,,, something that is not too

easy to shoot down by a first year law student

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

10. They withheld the throat.

If this woman was choked out by a cop, then this is exactly the thing that they would withold from Wecht.

This stinks to high heaven.

[sendero]

11. "bias"..

.... I have "bias" against people who's stories make no sense and then who try to hide information. Bias my ass, it's called a functioning brain.

[Evergreen Emerald]

29. without knowing the facts you have made up your mind.

sounds like bias to me.

[bluerum]

57. Missing throat. Hmmm. Let me think on that one till the evidence is "lost".

[dailykoff]

58. Macabre.

Really revolting. They treat her like garbage when she's alive and then hack her apart and keep the pieces after she's dead. Mental note: stay the hell out of that screwed up state.

[StClone]

12. My take could be mistaken, but

Authorities can find adequate defense only if it can be proven that she died of a previously unknown affliction that prudent and cautious custody procedures could not have foreseen. If she committed suicide or was high they are partly responsible. If she died by accidental strangulation they got some real problems. Responsibility is mostly on authorities in the case of an agitated but otherwise nonthreatening person that resisted only because of her situationally uncontrolled state. She's dead and authorities are left to answer the question as to why.

[mainer]

37. Cyril Wecht wasn't asking them to surrender the body

He only wanted access to examine it. Yet they didn't allow him to examine the heart, brain, or throat (?) What, exactly, are they withholding from Wecht, the hyoid bone? In which case, this part is forensically vital to making a determination of throat compression, and Wecht can't offer an opinion without it.

During an autopsy, both the brain and the heart are removed, as are most of the internal organs, for examination. If he had access to the lungs or stomach, for instance, why wouldn't he have access to the heart and brain? It's all puzzling.

[lligrd]

68. They Weren't Asking For Release Of The Body

just for an independent autopsy.

[sendero]

9. On what basis....

.. do they get to withhold ANYTHING. God I hope they throw the arresting cops AND the lying douchebag cover-up coordinators in jail.

[Evergreen Emerald]

32. seriously? Are you suggesting that they just give the body up before finishing the autopsy?

And giving it up to someone with an agenda?

[mainer]

2. How do you withhold THE THROAT?

The throat isn't CUT OUT during an autopsy! It may be dissected, but it's left in situ. Yes, the thyroid may be sampled, but you don't take out the throat... unless there are marks on it that you want to preserve (or destroy...)

And why would they withold the brain and heart? Those organs are kept along with everything else.

[mike_c]

3. yep-- this is getting stinkier and stinkier....

eom

[RamboLiberal]

4. Some more info

Snippets:

Michael Manning, who was hired by the family to monitor the police investigation, said the private investigator who watched the official autopsy said numerous bruises were scattered across Gotbaum's body.

''The body shows signs of a struggle,'' Manning said. ''There are ligature marks, and some of those ligature marks match the chain that they used to chain her to the bench.''

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Airport-Death.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

One new detail that has emerged is that Ms. Gotbaum placed a call to her husband, Noah, in the moments before her arrest. The Daily News reports today that the phone call was frantic and desperate. The News reports that Ms. Gotbaum dropped the phone and that her husband then called back, trying urgently to persuade an airline employee to let his wife onto the flight. Ms. Gotbaum was on her way to Cottonwood de Tucson, an inpatient alcohol rehabilitation program, but the door to the jetway had been shut and the plane was about to pull back, so she was not allowed to board. But The A.P.’s account described the cellphone call as calm.

Michael C. Manning, the Gotbaum family’s lawyer, said in a phone interview today that Dr. Wecht’s autopsy showed signs of trauma on Ms. Gotbaum’s body. “There certainly was visible, to the non-medical eye, bruising,” he said. “There was certainly evidence of a struggle as reflected in bruising and ligature marks,” presumably caused by the handcuffs and the chain that shackled the handcuffs to the bench.

“It does aggravate our concern that the shackle might have played a role in her death,” Mr. Manning said. “The reason is the fact that they shackled her in a room with no observation, no surveillance and they used as a shackle a chain 16 to 24 inches long. It is Law Enforcement 101 that you don’t leave an emotionally disturbed citizen shackled with that kind of potential weapon or device that they could hurt themselves.”

The Phoenix Police Department has defended its handling of the case. Its Professional Standards Bureau is conducting an internal investigation, as is the standard procedure after someone dies in police custody.

The New York Post has reported that Carol Gotbaum attempted suicide twice in the past year. In a phone interview today with The Times, Mr. Manning denied that Ms. Gotbaum had attempted suicide.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/03/celebrity-forensic-expert-takes-gotbaum-case/?hp

[Hepburn]

60. Ligature marks?????

Ummmmm....that sounds like a real problem for the cops since I read elsewhere that to strangle herself, she would have had to have dislocated both shoulders.

No wonder they cut out the throat area.

[scarface2004]

7. phoenix pigs are goin down!!

good...their gross incompetence is typical of authoritarians!

[sendero]

8. They were frantically trying to resuscitate her..

... because they knew their asses were grass if she died.

I hope this barracuda fucks these jerks like they've never been fucked before. Enough of this police-state bullshit.

[Peregrine Took]

13. Since "911" cops and security guards have gone wild. They need to be

reigned in and put in their place.

[RamboLiberal]

14. Did anyone see the video?

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/04/airport.death/index.html

Yes she was being an idiot screaming, but she wasn't a threat when they decided to take her down. Why not just let her scream herself out?

[Tzimisce]

16. Sigh.

Yeah, I took a look at the video. It seemed like she was acting out, but that's hardly a reason for a takedown and cuffs, IMO. If she'd been waving a gun around or assaulting someone, I could see it, sure. But for what she was doing, seems to me they overreacted. If it's true that she was suicidal or had a history of suicide attempts, I can summon up some sympathy for the cops, but not much since it was foolish in the extreme for them to leave her unsupervised. Unless/until more info comes to light, it's hard to really judge things, so I'm reserving my overall opinion till both investigations are completed and published.

[Evergreen Emerald]

30. Monday afternoon quarterbacking.

of course it is easy to say that she intended no harm--after the fact. I would imagine the outrage if she was aloud to run rampant through a closed gate screaming with no attempt to stop her.

I am going to wait until I get all of the facts--not just one side.

[aquart]

27. Where you live. Not where I live.

I live in Manhattan.

[Lost4words]

36. Damn Straight! We are not the enemy! nm

[petersjo02]

46. That's "reined" without the g

As in reining in a galloping horse.

[ProudDad]

15. An alcoholic person

on her way to rehab...

Encounters authoritarian bullshit of the airport, airline and police kind...

Is left alone, handcuffed behind her back...

en Extremis...

Chained...

Alone...


:wtf: do they fucking expect?

This was Manslaughter at BEST...

For once, the victim will be well represented.

I wonder whether this will change airline, airport, police procedures...NOT!

We know it won't.

They'll just tax us some more to cover the millions they will pay out to an already, apparently rich family...

Authoritarian bullshit...


The proper way to deal with people in extremis is a trained psychologist -- not fucking cops!

[Tzimisce]

17. Re: ProudDad

In all fairness, ProudDad, the airline personnel had no way of knowing that she's an alcoholic. Once the doors are closed and the plane is getting ready to taxi, they generally don't let anyone else board at that point. Some folks on that flight doubtless have connections, and they wait as long as they reasonably can to ensure folks can board without risking too many people missing a connection elsewhere.

Also, the appropriate response to being told you've missed your flight is to politely inquire when the next flight is leaving. Going from Phoenix to Tucson, there are LOTS of flights daily, since most of the carriers that operate in the Southwest have a hub in Phoenix. I'm in Tucson, and having flown from here quite a few times, going through Phoenix is the norm unless you specifically get a nonstop ticket. Even if she didn't care to wait, there are shuttles that operate between Phoenix and Tucson, as well. She had options to get where she wanted to go. Unfortunately, she either chose to act out or more probably lost control of her emotions in an irritating situation.

None of this excuses the police from going overboard, but she's got at least some responsibility here, as well. Mature adults are supposed to... well, act mature, aren't they? Pitching a screaming hissy fit in a public place isn't going to get you what you want.

[RamboLiberal]

18. Unless you're in the Amazing Race and unless you get on board

the finale will be a big snore. At least that is what happened on Amazing Race 7 to Rob and Amber (who I really disliked). That plane was already pushed out from the gate and the American Airlines captain decided to return out of the goodness of his heart. :sarcasm:

The main conspiracy theory centers on the final plane ride. Rob and Amber boarded a flight in San Juan, and thought they were safe when the doors closed. Joyce and Uchenna were close behind, but at the gate, they were denied entry. The gate agent radioed to the pilot, who decided to let the couple on the plane, creating a two-team race to the finish in Miami. Add to that the fact that American Airlines has been a sponsor of the race, and those unlikely events seem like a conspiracy to some.

Rob and Amber helped fuel these rumors. Rob told TV Guide he “was yelling and screaming at the producers on the plane” and says this “was a bit sketchy to me ... it wouldn’t have been too dramatic if only one team was running to the finish line.”

CBS, of course, says these claims “are completely without foundation.” A spokesperson told The New York Post, “Reality series are always breeding grounds for conspiracy theories. Only an understanding gate agent and the goodwill of the pilot returned the Jetway back to the plane. Uchenna and Joyce treated everyone with kindness and respect throughout race, and that karma was returned at a crucial moment.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7632857/

[ProudDad]

19. You missed my MAIN point

an alcoholic on her way to rehab can hardly be expected to be rational...

I've dealt with thousands of alcoholics/addicts/people with problems with substances and her behavior was perfectly within the norm for folks with those problems.

It's a form of mental illness -- these folks are NOT RESPONSIBLE for their actions...any more than any other mentally ill person is... That's one reason it's illegal to fire someone who checks into Rehab...

---------

If we lived in a decent society instead of a police state where "law and order ubber alles" is all important...THIS WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED...

The police are a fucking sledge hammer trying to fix a wrist watch in situations of human stress like this one...

In a mature society based on compassion and understanding personnel with the CORRECT TRAINING and skills would have been on hand (if needed at all)...

In a mature society based on compassion and understanding the management of the airport, police and airlines would change their procedures to handle these inevitable situations...

In a mature society based on compassion and understanding her fellow humans would have helped her out instead of some airline asshole calling the fucking cops to come tidy up the messy person...

[Tzimisce]

20. Re: ProudDad again

If her mental situation was that volatile, then shouldn't someone have accompanied her to ensure that she arrived safely at the rehab facility? Traveling is always stressful, even when things go right. If there was a concern that she'd respond poorly to stress, someone from her family ought to have traveled with her to assist her in getting there safely. However, that clearly wasn't the case.

Secondly, yes, she IS responsible for her actions. I sympathize with her for her addiction, but ultimately she is responsible for what she does. Would you so blithely excuse her responsibility if she'd gotten behind the wheel of a vehicle and injured or killed someone? I rather doubt it. It's tragic that this happened, but ultimately it could have been prevented.

You appear to have missed MY main point, as well. The police overreacted grossly, but at the same time, she and her family bear some responsibility for her situation, also. Her family's apparent negligence in ensuring a custodian during her travels factors into this, as someone familiar to her would have had a much better chance of calming her, or at least interceding on her behalf with the police. If she'd assaulted someone and injured them, it would still be HER responsibility, even if she's an alcoholic and suffering from that condition.

At the end of the day, the police made a bad situation worse, I'll freely admit that. But to absolve her and her family of all responsibility in this situation is disingenuous, to me.

[ProudDad]

21. You should look around

at least 10% (probably more) of the people you see day to day are in as volatile a mental state.

Should that be a death sentence?

I don't see how one could reasonably expect that their relative taking a plane ride from New York, connect in Phoenix to Tucson then a cab ride to rehab would be murdered by the cops...

How much responsibility is her family supposed to shoulder for police incompetence, misconduct and criminal negligence???

Dog Damn. Talk about piling on!


You know, I'm getting pretty tired of running into so many people here at DU who are so quick to blame the victim in this fucking police state of Amerika...

I suppose it's my own fucking fault for assuming that "Progressives" would have more than the minimum of compassion for the downtrodden, victimized and oppressed in this society.

I suppose it's my own fucking fault for assuming that "Progressives" would lean a little more against the forces of authoritarianism and control.

I suppose it's my own fucking fault for assuming that "Progressives" wouldn't so exactly reflect this sick society.

Hell, I suppose it's my own fucking fault for assuming that DU was a "Progressive" board just because the silly rules say it was meant to be...

Silly me...


FTP and FTP...

[Tzimisce]

22. I have looked around.

I can't help but notice that you're rushing to condemn me because I'm not rushing to condemn the police. So ironic. The fact of the matter is that each individual bears responsibility for their actions, INCLUDING the police, as I pointed out on several occasions. The fact that you're so quick to label the police as violent thugs before all the facts of the case are known just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I'm sorry that upsets you so much.

Also, I find it amusing that you're upset that your "assumption" proved wrong, when you've got 1000+ posts. It took you this long to run into someone you disagreed with?

[ProudDad]

44. Geez

There aren't even that many left who can detect :sarcasm: without the smiley... :nuke:

[petersjo02]

48. I suggest you go gargle (for that "bad taste" in your mouth)

and leave the guy alone. It is a fact that Phoenix police don't have the greatest history for managing situations like this, and you don't have to live there very long to hear about it.

[Ken Burch]

23. But why did the cops have to KEEP her in custody?

Couldn't they have just called her husband to get her and let it go at that?

Why was it so freaking important to them to PUT HER IN A CELL, as if she was a criminal?

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. Screaming in an airport must be a crime in Phoenix

Can't have no screaming passengers! :sarcasm:

[NashVegas]

59. We Have the Right to Not Be Bothered By Someone Else's Emotional Disturbance

Bad for business.

[ProudDad]

61. Being "disorderly" anywhere

is a criminal offense in our new shiny police state...

Sometimes, it's a capital offense...

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. So it's her family's fault because they weren't with her?

Good grief. Are you a cop?

[TX-RAT]

38. an alcoholic on her way to rehab can hardly be expected to be rational...

I agree, but how was anybody to know that she was an alcoholic headed to rehab?



"these folks are NOT RESPONSIBLE for their actions."

Then why was she flying alone? Why the hell didn't her husband, who seems so caring now, go with her.

[hedgehog]

55. If she was in such bad shape, then who is responsible,

the cops who were restraining a total stranger of r the family who knew her, knew her history and state of mind and who none-the less sent her unescorted to Phoenix?

[Lost4words]

34. I'll bet they would have let a Senator board the plane!

I suspect the authorities here.

[Gormy Cuss]

43. Pitching a hissy fit in public may not be mature but it happens all the time

without police intervention. Ask anyone who works customer service.

In fact, pre-9/11 I used to see grown men pitching fits over missed flights on a regular basis without getting tackled, shackled,and frog-marched to a holding room. I'm not in a position to say that there weren't other actions that lead to the arrest but acting like a toddler shouldn't be grounds for police intervention in a normal democratic society.

[ProudDad]

62. Bingo!!!

"in a normal democratic society"

My exact point, it's been years since USAmerika even pretended to be working toward one of those...

[Hekate]

52. Kind of my take on it, except I wonder why she was travelling alone...

...considering how emotionally wobbly she was?

Of course, there's no way we as outsiders can know what her family dynamics were at the time. Alcoholics can create emotional chaos -- maybe no one wanted to interfere with her latest plan -- maybe the family simply breathed a sigh of relief when she exited -- and quite likely no one really expected that this journey would end in arrest and death.

Sometimes it seems to me that our world has gone mad. No, I surely do not want a screamer on my flight, but I also want cops who are capable of using judgment and behaving humanely. This seems to have been nuts all the way around.

Hekate

[ProudDad]

63. The cops are the wrong "tool"

Since everyone knows that airline travel now days (since OSAMA Bin Laden WON) is at best a pain in the ass, demeaning and unreliable and at worst a hell on earth...

They should have a professional counselor trained to defuse exactly this sort of incident available at all major airports...and NEVER call the cops on this kind of shit...

Cops are USELESS in these kinds of situations -- they're all about force and control...

[Hekate]

66. And that's the gods' truth. nt

[monktonman]

24. Ok I'd like to make a prediction

Three months from now we'll all realize this women was frickin nuts
and while the cops probably over-reacted a bit they will be exonerated.
Just sayin.
Go ahead Flame on, I can take it.

[aquart]

28. If she was "frickin' nuts" and in their custody, THEY are responsible.

Because she was not.

[Lost4words]

35. And thats what well/they say when they kill you.

Suspect authority! Its your job.

[monktonman]

47. I think she killed herself

[Zhade]

51. IT'S. NOT. POSSIBLE.

You simply cannot strangle yourself if your hands are secured behind your back.

It can't be done.

[ProudDad]

64. I'll bet you $100 that the family

will get at least $5 million and the fucking cops will be found criminally negligent.

Of course, she went nuts, DUH!!! Haven't you been reading the articles and posts?

That's not the point -- she was murdered because she went nuts... You want to live in a fucking country that would do that?

[McCamy Taylor]

25. She could have died of delirium tremens. Visual hallucinations, agitation,

tremors (one of the witnesses described her falling to the ground and her legs shaking). People die if they are not treated. All that is needed to precipitate it is to suddenly stop drinking alcohol or taking benzos, something she might have done if she was on her way to rehab.

Chained up, all alone, she might have died of a treatable cause with no one to help her.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delirium_tremens

[Ilsa]

39. I was thinking she was in serious withdrawal as well and could

have died from medical complications of her alcoholism.

[LaStrega]

26. I'd not seen the video ...

Thank you for posting it. I'm amazed, no ... mind-numbingly dumbstruck ... at how people are walking by seemingly not noticing anything is amiss. Sickening.

Further, it annoyed the fuck outta me the guy describing what we're seeing on the video kept saying Ms. Gotbaum was "escorted" out ... more like fucking dragged out.

I understand we'll need to wait for further info. Still, what I'm seeing is three hefty guys man-handling a woman much smaller than any one of them.

[Ilsa]

40. Why did her husband let her attempt to fly on her own if she was suicidal?

According to the police, her husband called and said she was sick and suicidal. I can't imagine a responsible person allowing her to travel on her own if she is that sick. Someone should have accompanied her, even if it is a hired private nurse.

I don't think the police were the only ones to screw up her arrest.

[RamboLiberal]

41. Actually she was supposed to be met by friends at the airport

who didn't show. I've read that in a couple of the accounts. And she had changed from her original flight which was direct so she could see her kids off to school.

[Ilsa]

42. Thank you for helping me understand that. Her friends really let

her and her family down. Maybe they were tired of dealing with her, or maybe they had an emergency of their own, but someone should have let the family know that they wouldn't be there.

[sasquatch]

45. Sounds like sime pinhead cop choked her to death because he felt like it

[Tzimisce]

49. ...

Yes, because we all know that ALL cops are murdering thugs who kill people for fun and games. :eyes:

[superconnected]

53. I think it's most likely he was a security guard.

I think it's most likely he was a security guard.

While your blanket statement is inappropriate, I'll bait it with, yeah but cops have killed people out of simply wanting them dead before.

How about that one in California who was raping girls and killing them and leaving their bodies by the side of the road a decade ago. He was bashing their heads in with his flashlight after he stopped them at night, in traffic stops.

[Tzimisce]

54. Re: superconnected

To that I will say that the exception doesn't prove the rule. The scumbag in that situation should've never been a cop from the word go, and whoever allowed him on the force made a grievous error in judgment, to say the least.

Still, it seems that people are all too willing to believe the worst of police officers, which I find irritating, since I'm friends with a few of them. Most of them are decent, hardworking folks who want nothing more than to protect and serve the public trust, while at the same time making an honest living so they can have a family of their own. The generalization of cops as violent, barbaric thugs really gets my dander up, because while some of them assuredly are like that, statistics and common sense prove otherwise.

In the police line of work, errors are going to happen, and it's regrettable that sometimes those errors wind up with people dying. I don't excuse the officers involved if they could have foreseen what was going to happen, or if they violated the standards of prudence and common sense in carrying out their duties. When cops make mistakes, they should be held accountable, just like anyone else should be held accountable.

I find it disturbing that, based on a few instances of misconduct or outright barbaric behavior, so many progressives are willing to tar ALL police officers with that brush. Police officers do a difficult job, and somehow I doubt most people would continue to malign police officers if they were in immediate need of police assistance in a difficult situation.

Hold the guilty responsible for their actions, but give the innocent the benefit of the doubt before maligning them as thugs and barbarians. My two cents.

[ProudDad]

65. Naw, just some of them (n/t)

[StudentLoanSlave]

67. That's a lousy comment

And you don't know anything about it.

[ret5hd]

69. Well, i know something about cops and i agree with him.

[Zhade]

50. It is impossible to strangle yourself with your hands cuffed behind your back.

That is one fact that simply cannot be spun.

[hedgehog]

56. How do we know she was strangled?

The autopsy results aren't in yet. I'm betting she had a stroke or heart attack brought on by a crashing withdrawal from alcohol. the cops had no way to know she was in bad shape and followed normal operating procedure. I think she ended up with the chain across her front leading to the initial assumption she strangled, but I doubt the chain caused her death.