French parliament adopts DNA bill

[eppur_se_muova]

Source: BBC

A new immigration bill introducing possible DNA tests for foreigners who want to join relatives in France has been adopted by parliament.

The controversial bill was passed in both the country's National Assembly and in the Senate.

Supporters say it will speed up the process for genuine applicants and cite similar laws in other European nations.

Critics have attacked the law as racist and question the use of genetics as a basis for citizenship.

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7059186.stm

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Holy shite -- what a STUPID idea! :banghead:

[soothsayer]

1. I was hoping it was a bill saying that your DNA is your own business

and you are entitled to protect its privacy.

[GeminiProgressive]

3. wow

After this and the strikes last week after Sarkozy promised to reinstate wage slavery on many workers I bet the people are just thrilled they decided to elect these Nazis over the Socialists..

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

5. Do I detect sarkozasm?

:sarkozasm:

[Progressive Friend]

2. Hypocrisy alert: Sarkozy isn't French.

[Igel]

4. But when those whose surname he bears immigrated to France,

and the French took in dear Nicolas, was Nicolas *really* his parents' child?

Was he, perhaps, the son of a rich neighbor who merely paid to have him smuggled out of Hungary?

Does it matter in a cosmic sense? Does it matter in a legal sense? Does it matter in terms of what's actually attested to?

Even in New York, there have been wives and kids brought in as family that bore no genetic relationship to the person requesting they be allowed to immigrate. In some cases, it turns out that they're adopted. In other cases, it turns out that it's merely profitable to develop another son or cousin or even a second mother.

It's quite permissible to define the laws to restrict adopted relatives. Harsh, but not outrageous. On the other hand, allowing "son" and "cousin" to be a financial arrangement when the host country stipulates otherwise is simply dishonest and not an acceptable reason for sponsoring a person. Hence the problem: For France, there's one definition of the permitted relatives, and for some in other cultures, either a different definition, or an exceedingly lax one.

Make provisions to show that those that aren't genetically related are, indeed, adopted in the usual Western sense of the word. But keep out those the cheats and swindlers want to smuggle in, and then kick out the cheats and swindlers.

[divineorder]

7. What about stepchildren?

Can a stepparent bring in a stepchild? What about a child of a girlfriend or boyfriend that has lived with you for years and isn't genetically yours? Of course this does not even contemplate the possibility that a person may believe a child is theirs that isn't, or vice versa. Also, in many parts of the world, "family" can also include quite distant relatives-such as inlaws and close neighbors.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

11. What about stepchildren?

I believe France should be able to determine what criteria they use to determine what is "family" for immigration purposes. Just because your second cousin once removed is considered close family in one's country of origin doesn't mean that France has to accept that for immigration purposes. Right? :)

I would hope that stepchildren would be included, by the way.

[conspirator]

13. The same way hitler was austrian nt

[xchrom]

6. this is consistant with other moves the french have made

to slow foreigners streaming into the country.

i dislike the use of genetics -- but i know why they are doing it.
and sarkozy is an idiot -- we'll have to wait and see what the french people make of this.

[JFreitas]

8. Sarkozy REALLY is an idiot, but on the other hand

Sarkozy REALLY is an idiot, but on the other hand the system was being systematically abused.

Think of it this way: there are circumstances where you might be forced to prove blood relation - or where you might want someone to prove it (ie. for instance if some woman shows up saying her son is yours too and demands alimony) - and people generally do not balk at providing proof. Well, immigrants in France are allowed VERY generous subsidies, sometimes directly tied to the number of children they have or are supporting. Should they not be forced to prove the children are theirs? After all, these children will cost the state (and the taxpayer) a LOT of money over a lot of years.

I would be more worried about making sure that a) this new system is not abused, b) legitimate ways are provided for people to prove that they have stepsons, adopted sons et.al. and c) no actual data base is created by this.

[Indy Lurker]

9. How long is the DNa retained, and who has it? n/t

[JFreitas]

10. Here's a rundown

So, I went and looked at various french articles and Vews (I speak relatively good french) and here's sort of a summary of what's going on.

- The law was way more restrictive and authoritarian in its first form, opposition parties toned it down (but still voted against in the end and even some right wing deputies voted against in the more traditionalist and catholic party).

- Opposition will take the government to Constitutional court on those dispositions on the law that specifically authorize DNA testing.

- This law authorizes collecting genetic samples of various ethnic groups for statistical purposes.

- It includes a very controversial measure that allows (although it does not mandate) the authorities to require from any 16 year or older a test on his ability to speak french prior to coming to France (as one of the articles says quoting a Grenn party member: ""Si on avait demandé aux parents ou aux grands-parents du président de la République, à ceux d'Edouard Balladur, de Fadela Amara ou Rachida Dati de parler français, croyez-vous qu'ils pourraient vivre dans ce pays et être membres du gouvernement ?" < If anyone had required the parents or grand-parents of our President, or of Balladur, Amara or Dati, to speak French, do you think that they might be able to live in our country today, or be members of the government?>

- DNA testing must in general (exceptions exist) be demanded by the immigrant, whenever he applies for a longer than 3-month visa, and when there might be problems with the papers issued by the country of origin, to prove that he is in fact a relative of someone in France.

- government will pay for the tests, and send results to appropriate consular or diplomatic authorities. Only maternal filiation is allowed, and only for citizens of countries whose papertrail is considered "doubtful".

- there will be a 18 months period for trying out this law, with all results of testing to be destroyed at that point, if no further legislation is issued.

Truth is, even many leftwingers (in the general population) seem to be strongly in favor of this law. We must remember that France is a strongly secular state, and that the left wing republicans were at the forefront of this movement. Islamic immigrants have broken many of the divisions between left and right, with most of the population, left included, decrying the use of veil in schools, etc... If you go to forums in french, you will see that a lot of people are in favor of DNA testing, even if they oppose other bits of this law.

France is going more and more the way of the UK, with the law allowing more and more opportunities for collecting DA into a data bank, mandatory for everyone convicted to ten or more years, suspect of a serious crime, etc... Generally speaking, DNA samples are "simplified", ie they are reduced to just those elements that allow ID, not elements that would allow profiling in terms of race, disease, etc. In addition, only cops under certain circumstances, with the authorization of a judge can access the data base. But the data base is retained for between 25 and 40 years, a long time for those that fear this law.

Hope this helps a bit.

[Crayson]

12. Wait a minute, hold your horses...

As far as I understood, the bill said, that applicants CAN VOLOUNTARILY take a DNA test to prove their relation, to speed up the process.

If they don't then they just have to take the long and annoying paper way with many letters back and forth between france and the country of origin where often birth certificates are missing and so on.

I see this bill as a shortcut you CAN take, but you are not obliged to at all.

It has to to with the "who has to prove what". Basically the state has to prove you're not the person you tell them. But that can take years and until then you're in limbo.
If you walk up and say, here, my DNA proves I'm her daughter, then you save the state much much paperwork and you save yourself alot of time. As a possibly paperless immigrant with nothing else but my voice to prove I'm related to my parents I'd use this option in an instant!

Of course it has alwys a downside trusting a government with your DNA and I'm a distrustful person.
But being in a hopeless situation that can take years to prove your relation to a parent, this is a speedy and clean solution, in my opinion.

[JFreitas]

14. Yes, but....

Yes, you're right, but...

- the DNA sampling can be collected and kept for statistical purposes (ie what countries, what ethnics, and so on);
- the bill makes provisions for the immigration authorities to initiate themselves the process of collecting a sample, subject to approval by a magistrate, and written consent from the "samplee". Of course, if he doesn't give his consent it may be grounds for refusal of entry.

But as I said, some of the other provisions of the law are more dangerous than the DNA sampling, namely the proof of speaking french.

The left wing is objecting to the DNA bill on an in principle basis, since they argue it could lead to other things (also, the original wording was much more in favor of the authorities and there was no 18 months moratorium), even though the public support seems to be in favor of more strict immigration law.